Europe submits voluntarily

[Loren Pechtel]

Bullshit. China was and is a contributor to humanity with there many discoveries and achievements. Today even though a communist regime, its the largest economy on earth with a growing living standard for all Chinese.
Compare that to any Islamic country which

It is hard to find a islamic country that treats its citizens and the environment as bad as china does.

I disagree.

Environmentally, China is worse because China actually has major production facilities. On the human rights side the Islamic countries tend to be far worse. China doesn't go around with a quasi-slavery system!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some think the only Muslim countries are Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

And what can never be forgotten is that Iran was a secular democracy in 1950, moving away from this religious nonsense, until US and British interference destroyed that democracy which led to a takeover by religious fundamentalists.

Who knows what would take over in the US if some foreign power was able to destroy it's democratic structures?

The Christian fundamentalists that are all over the place?

Try some reality. I was in Iran in 75--compared to where we had been it was a breath of fresh air. It was a secular nation then.

 

[untermensche]

Some think the only Muslim countries are Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

And what can never be forgotten is that Iran was a secular democracy in 1950, moving away from this religious nonsense, until US and British interference destroyed that democracy which led to a takeover by religious fundamentalists.

Who knows what would take over in the US if some foreign power was able to destroy it's democratic structures?

The Christian fundamentalists that are all over the place?

Try some reality. I was in Iran in 75--compared to where we had been it was a breath of fresh air. It was a secular nation then.

You can't wipe away facts with your opinions which are known to be worthless.

 

[Jayjay]

Try some reality. I was in Iran in 75--compared to where we had been it was a breath of fresh air. It was a secular nation then.

You can't wipe away facts with your opinions which are known to be worthless.

In this case he's right. Iran under Shah may not have been democratic, but it was secular.

 

[untermensche]

You can't wipe away facts with your opinions which are known to be worthless.

In this case he's right. Iran under Shah may not have been democratic, but it was secular.

It was not a democracy. That is the crucial fact. It did not have the legitimacy in the minds of the people the democracy it replaced did.

It replaced a secular democracy.

And the destruction of that secular democracy and replacing it with a dictatorial and abusive secular society is what led to the rise of the radical religious elements and their eventual take over.

The country did not see the government as legitimate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In this case he's right. Iran under Shah may not have been democratic, but it was secular.

It was not a democracy. That is the crucial fact. It did not have the legitimacy in the minds of the people the democracy it replaced did.

It replaced a secular democracy.

And the destruction of that secular democracy and replacing it with a dictatorial and abusive secular society is what led to the rise of the radical religious elements and their eventual take over.

The country did not see the government as legitimate.

The current government isn't a democracy, either.

 

[untermensche]

It was not a democracy. That is the crucial fact. It did not have the legitimacy in the minds of the people the democracy it replaced did.

It replaced a secular democracy.

And the destruction of that secular democracy and replacing it with a dictatorial and abusive secular society is what led to the rise of the radical religious elements and their eventual take over.

The country did not see the government as legitimate.

The current government isn't a democracy, either.

No shit.

That's my point.

The US destroyed their democracy and pushed them on their current course.

And everyone agrees, religious states are not a good thing.

Be they Muslim, or Jewish, or Christian.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The current government isn't a democracy, either.

No shit.

That's my point.

The US destroyed their democracy and pushed them on their current course.

And everyone agrees, religious states are not a good thing.

Be they Muslim, or Jewish, or Christian.

Americans confusing capitalism with freedom is a cold war thing. I hope. I hope they have stopped that nonsense.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The current government isn't a democracy, either.

No shit.

That's my point.

The US destroyed their democracy and pushed them on their current course.

And everyone agrees, religious states are not a good thing.

Be they Muslim, or Jewish, or Christian.

The 53 "democracy" wasn't going to last, anyway--it was an infiltration by the Soviets.

 

[angelo]

There is fundamental disagreement IMHO. Correlation and causation and all that. I think the religious wars of the Reformation are just a side effect of other stuff. It wasn't the main act. And in retrospect irrelevant in the big picture, even though it propelled Sweden from Arctic outpost to a major world power as well as brain draining England to USA.

2. The Enlightenment would have happened anyway, with or without the religious wars, because of the printing press,

Yes. That is the logical next step.

It may seem that way to us in retrospect, but that's because the Enlightenment is part of our cultural pedigree. But Islam didn't undergo an enlightenment of its own even though Muslims have had printing presses for centuries. If it's really the logical next step, why didn't their culture take it?

Bullshit!!! China was and is a contributor to humanity with their many discoveries and achievements. Today even though ruled by a socialist/communist moderate regime, it's the largest economy on earth. Compare that to Islamic countries who need outside multinational companies to operate their oil wells. Muslims are too busy praying five times a day to achieve anything!

The trouble with Islam from this perspective is that it was in effect Protestant from the get-go. Anybody who could read was allowed to read the Quran. There was no Meccan Catholic Mosque organizing everyone's life and being corrupted by its own power and wealth for contrary religious thinkers to launch reform movements against. The Sunni/Shia dispute is more political than theological; the Sunni theocrats and the Shia theocrats are pretty much in agreement as to what to order the Muslim in the street to believe about God. In that sort of conceptual universe there isn't as much place for the notion that each person is entitled to decide for himself what to believe about God to gain a foothold.

Yup. The Muslims were held back by having a very effective central government more concerned with staying in power than progress and innovation. They were all about stability. Same deal in China and India. Anything that could threaten the status quo was shut down.

Bullshit. China was and is a contributor to humanity with there many discoveries and achievements. Today even though a communist regime, its the largest economy on earth with a growing living standard for all Chinese.
Compare that to any Islamic country which has lagged way behind in making any kind of progress, in fact some are still living in the sixth century. Muslims are too busy praying five time per day to achieve anything!

GDP growth rates in some of the most populous Muslim majority countries of the world:
Indonesia: 5.20
Pakistan: 4.10
Malaysia: 5.90
Bangladesh: 6.20
Egypt: 2.20 (essentially the same as Canada)
Iran: 1.50 (same as Germany)
Saudi Arabia: 3.60
Morocco: 3.50

For comparison, Australia: 2.80.

Facts are for losers, aren't they?

Why have they this GDP? Isn't it because multinational companies have set up manufacturing in these low wage countries?

You were contrasting China with "any Islamic country". Couldn't the same be said of China?

What type of stock exchanges are in these Arab nations? I genuinely have no idea.

 

[angelo]

You can't wipe away facts with your opinions which are known to be worthless.

In this case he's right. Iran under Shah may not have been democratic, but it was secular.

It certainly was. I remember the ladies wearing mini skirts, unlike now wearing tents!

 

[angelo]

The current government isn't a democracy, either.

No shit.

That's my point.

The US destroyed their democracy and pushed them on their current course.

And everyone agrees, religious states are not a good thing.

Be they Muslim, or Jewish, or Christian.

Never miss a point about mentioning Israel, right?
The facts are that the Jewish state is an open and free democracy. In matter of fact, the only democratic nation in the region! There's even Arabs in government having been elected legitimately.

 

[untermensche]

No shit.

That's my point.

The US destroyed their democracy and pushed them on their current course.

And everyone agrees, religious states are not a good thing.

Be they Muslim, or Jewish, or Christian.

Never miss a point about mentioning Israel, right?
The facts are that the Jewish state is an open and free democracy. In matter of fact, the only democratic nation in the region! There's even Arabs in government having been elected legitimately.

Israel is a gaping wound and the cause of huge unrest.

What a great idea this religious state.

 

[angelo]

Never miss a point about mentioning Israel, right?
The facts are that the Jewish state is an open and free democracy. In matter of fact, the only democratic nation in the region! There's even Arabs in government having been elected legitimately.

Israel is a gaping wound and the cause of huge unrest.

What a great idea this religious state.

Anti semetism is blinding judgments. I repeat that Israel has a secular democratic government. One that doesn't throw gay people from the top floor of high buildings. It embraces all including atheist and xtians.

 

[Ford]

So now that Europe has completely surrendered to the Muslim horde, how long will it be before we get some really interesting architecture on the continent?

 

[angelo]

Within fifty or so years, you won't have to travel far to see madrases and mosques everywhere. All the architecture right at the front door!

 

[skepticalbip]

Israel is a gaping wound and the cause of huge unrest.

What a great idea this religious state.

Anti semetism is blinding judgments. I repeat that Israel has a secular democratic government. One that doesn't throw gay people from the top floor of high buildings. It embraces all including atheist and xtians.

And even Muslims. There are several Muslims in the Knesset. Israel's greatest threat to its surrounding countries is that it shows that Arabs, Muslims, and Jews can live peacefully together in one country. It is the neighboring Muslim countries that can't handle that idea or even the idea of Jews being neighbors in the ME.

 

[Ford]

Within fifty or so years, you won't have to travel far to see madrases and mosques everywhere.

That doesn't help me at all. I just turned fifty a few months ago. I can't wait until I'm 100 to see the results of Europe's complete surrender to Islam!


Do you think maybe you could convince people to start building historically significant mosques within the next few years?

 

[angelo]

Within fifty or so years, you won't have to travel far to see madrases and mosques everywhere.

That doesn't help me at all. I just turned fifty a few months ago. I can't wait until I'm 100 to see the results of Europe's complete surrender to Islam!


Do you think maybe you could convince people to start building historically significant mosques within the next few years?

Ask Merkel to hurry up the transformation of Germany into Germastan.

 

[Ford]

That doesn't help me at all. I just turned fifty a few months ago. I can't wait until I'm 100 to see the results of Europe's complete surrender to Islam!


Do you think maybe you could convince people to start building historically significant mosques within the next few years?

Ask Merkel to hurry up the transformation of Germany into Germastan.

Will there be minarets?