Europe submits voluntarily

[angelo]

There are a lot of decent ones. Palestine is a special case--they've been controlled by the crazies for generations now, fed a constant diet of hate. Blame the scumbags that have been manipulating them for nearly 70 years.

Palestine is indeed a special case...fed a constant diet of Israeli violence. You seem blind to the fact that Israeli weapons are so extremely destructive they cannot be used hardly anywhere (let alone in Gaza) without massive civilian casualties. The Israeli leadership knows this, but they just keep fueling the hatred in those they have already disenfranchised and humiliated. Hamas was born of Israeli violence. Yes it is violent, but only about 1/100 as violent as the IDF. I believe it would be equally violent if it could. It is up to the Israelis to deescalate this situation. There is nothing any Palestinian can do to lower tensions in the face of the Netanyahu government.

They could stop terrorist attacks against Israelis. There would be peace immediately.
Israel has every right to defend its citizens as it would be expected in every other nation on earth. Tell me why you think Israel has no right to defend itself?

 

[Jayjay]

Palestine is indeed a special case...fed a constant diet of Israeli violence. You seem blind to the fact that Israeli weapons are so extremely destructive they cannot be used hardly anywhere (let alone in Gaza) without massive civilian casualties. The Israeli leadership knows this, but they just keep fueling the hatred in those they have already disenfranchised and humiliated. Hamas was born of Israeli violence. Yes it is violent, but only about 1/100 as violent as the IDF. I believe it would be equally violent if it could. It is up to the Israelis to deescalate this situation. There is nothing any Palestinian can do to lower tensions in the face of the Netanyahu government.

They could stop terrorist attacks against Israelis. There would be peace immediately.
Israel has every right to defend its citizens as it would be expected in every other nation on earth. Tell me why you think Israel has no right to defend itself?

In case of Hamas, you're mostly right. Hamas's rocket attacks are indefensible and Israel has the right to bomb the shit out of Gaza when that happens.

But when it comes to attacks in West Bank, Israel is the invader. If someone breaks into your house, starts taking your stuff, are you not entitled to use violence to try to remove him? If Israelis were to leave the illegal settlements, then there would be no violence against the settlers.

 

[TSwizzle]

It has launched countless terrorist drones.

Hope and change.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are a lot of decent ones. Palestine is a special case--they've been controlled by the crazies for generations now, fed a constant diet of hate. Blame the scumbags that have been manipulating them for nearly 70 years.

Palestine is indeed a special case...fed a constant diet of Israeli violence. You seem blind to the fact that Israeli weapons are so extremely destructive they cannot be used hardly anywhere (let alone in Gaza) without massive civilian casualties. The Israeli leadership knows this, but they just keep fueling the hatred in those they have already disenfranchised and humiliated. Hamas was born of Israeli violence. Yes it is violent, but only about 1/100 as violent as the IDF. I believe it would be equally violent if it could. It is up to the Israelis to deescalate this situation. There is nothing any Palestinian can do to lower tensions in the face of the Netanyahu government.

Hitting about 50% combatants despite the Palestinian use of human shield tactics is far better than any other country does.

 

[Bomb#20]

The conquered people Loren was referring to were the decent Moslems, conquered by the Islamo-Nazis they can't overpower and can't help living among.

You mean those decent Moslems who voted for the terrorist Hamas, and now find they can't vote them out now?
The more than 90% of them who think it's their duty to murder a Jew, any Jew? The very same decent moslems who hate the West with a vengeance?

No, I mean the minority who voted against Hamas. I mean the ones who are too scared of the nutjobs to do anything political that might draw the nutjobs' ire. And that 90% figure varies regionally -- worldwide it's probably only about 50%. The thing you need to remember is that Islam is a death cult. And like other cults, mixed in with the committed believers it's full of people who'd love to leave but don't because trying to escape is too dangerous. When you get a lot of Moslems together it's usually a hostage situation -- some of them are captors, some of them are hostages, and some of them are captors posing as hostages and ready to rat out any group of hostages that tries to make a plan to escape or overpower the captors, or even that expresses disloyal feelings. This is the world most of the refugees have grown up with in their home countries -- most of that part of the world is in effect Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition resurrected. When you randomly take a hundred of them who made it to Greece and give them a ride to Sweden and put them up in a refugee center they recreate that dynamic in miniature. The ones who think like Hamas set themselves up as a ruling class inside the shelter and maintain their authority by fear and violence, so it's still a hostage situation, just like it was back home. The ones who don't think like Hamas knuckle under and don't fight back, because they don't expect to win, just like it was back home.

What this means is that every time some German jerk runs into a refugee shelter and pepper sprays twenty people, a bunch of the people he's pepper spraying are hostages.

 

[angelo]

That's the difference between islamic nut jobs and xtian ones. Many xtians can criticise their religion with impunity. Nothing will happen to them. Criticise islam and one needs 24/7 protection or to go into hiding.

 

[whichphilosophy]

You mean those decent Moslems who voted for the terrorist Hamas, and now find they can't vote them out now?
The more than 90% of them who think it's their duty to murder a Jew, any Jew? The very same decent moslems who hate the West with a vengeance?

No, I mean the minority who voted against Hamas. I mean the ones who are too scared of the nutjobs to do anything political that might draw the nutjobs' ire. And that 90% figure varies regionally -- worldwide it's probably only about 50%. The thing you need to remember is that Islam is a death cult. And like other cults, mixed in with the committed believers it's full of people who'd love to leave but don't because trying to escape is too dangerous. When you get a lot of Moslems together it's usually a hostage situation -- some of them are captors, some of them are hostages, and some of them are captors posing as hostages and ready to rat out any group of hostages that tries to make a plan to escape or overpower the captors, or even that expresses disloyal feelings. This is the world most of the refugees have grown up with in their home countries -- most of that part of the world is in effect Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition resurrected. When you randomly take a hundred of them who made it to Greece and give them a ride to Sweden and put them up in a refugee center they recreate that dynamic in miniature. The ones who think like Hamas set themselves up as a ruling class inside the shelter and maintain their authority by fear and violence, so it's still a hostage situation, just like it was back home. The ones who don't think like Hamas knuckle under and don't fight back, because they don't expect to win, just like it was back home.

What this means is that every time some German jerk runs into a refugee shelter and pepper sprays twenty people, a bunch of the people he's pepper spraying are hostages.

Hamas did not set themselves up, they were elected. Hamas are reacting no differently to Americans if their territory was under occupation. Further it is not launching attacks on the West. However all the killings by both sides are senseless.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Palestine is indeed a special case...fed a constant diet of Israeli violence. You seem blind to the fact that Israeli weapons are so extremely destructive they cannot be used hardly anywhere (let alone in Gaza) without massive civilian casualties. The Israeli leadership knows this, but they just keep fueling the hatred in those they have already disenfranchised and humiliated. Hamas was born of Israeli violence. Yes it is violent, but only about 1/100 as violent as the IDF. I believe it would be equally violent if it could. It is up to the Israelis to deescalate this situation. There is nothing any Palestinian can do to lower tensions in the face of the Netanyahu government.

They could stop terrorist attacks against Israelis. There would be peace immediately.
Israel has every right to defend its citizens as it would be expected in every other nation on earth. Tell me why you think Israel has no right to defend itself?

The Palestinians say the same. It has a right to protect itself. Israeli war planes have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's the difference between islamic nut jobs and xtian ones. Many xtians can criticise their religion with impunity. Nothing will happen to them. Criticise islam and one needs 24/7 protection or to go into hiding.

Don't you think that's just a feature of Christian countries being predominantly democratic while Islamic ones are less so? Whenever I hear stuff like that I just look up the state of things in Turkey. In most cases it's just like here.

Democracy and the support for free expression does not come naturally to our species. Without plenty of constant re-enforcement its gone.

 

[Jayjay]

That's the difference between islamic nut jobs and xtian ones. Many xtians can criticise their religion with impunity. Nothing will happen to them. Criticise islam and one needs 24/7 protection or to go into hiding.

Don't you think that's just a feature of Christian countries being predominantly democratic while Islamic ones are less so? Whenever I hear stuff like that I just look up the state of things in Turkey. In most cases it's just like here.

The last I checked, Turkey was still run by an islamist party that's suppressing any dissenting opinion. I don't see any comparison to western democracies, unless we go back to McCarthy era USA or something.

 

[Bomb#20]

That's the difference between islamic nut jobs and xtian ones. Many xtians can criticise their religion with impunity. Nothing will happen to them. Criticise islam and one needs 24/7 protection or to go into hiding.

Yes. Exactly. We need to keep that in mind when we become exasperated with never seeing the Islamic sane jobs marching and protesting against the extremists. If you were in their shoes wouldn't you think Westerners should cut you some slack for your silence?

 

[Bomb#20]

The ones who think like Hamas set themselves up as a ruling class ...

Hamas did not set themselves up, they were elected.

They were elected by people who think like them -- by people who think having a society ruled by Hamas-types is a good idea. That counts as setting themselves up.

Hamas are reacting no differently to Americans if their territory was under occupation.

Oh, for the love of god! American territory was under occupation. We didn't react by setting off bombs in little British girls' birthday parties and we didn't react by making Americans live under a Christian Taliban.

Further it is not launching attacks on the West.

The attacks on Westerners by the Islamo-Nazis are the smallest part of the problem, even though they're what typically gets the press coverage. By far the greater part of the problem is their attacks on their fellow Muslims.

 

[untermensche]

Hamas did not set themselves up, they were elected.

They were elected by people who think like them -- by people who think having a society ruled by Hamas-types is a good idea. That counts as setting themselves up.

They were elected because of the good things they did for people.

Hamas is not just a bunch of mad zombies that think of nothing but eating the flesh of the Israelites.

They do a lot of humanitarian work.

And because of the widespread and long lasting oppression by Israel there is always a lot of good work that is needed.

 

[Jayjay]

Hitler was also elected. Whether some fascist political entity like Hamas or the Nazi party can get elected via campaign promises or demonizing their opponents or whatever other means is irrelevant. What's important is that Hamas government utterly failed in delivering any of their promises, ended up starting a minor civil war, purged their political opponents from Gaza, have not allowed new elections since and has subjected Gaza to several devastating wars with Israel. And that's been going on almost ten years, with no end in sight.

Why is it that some people seem to think that having elections once is enough? You're supposed to do it at regular intervals. Democracy is a lot less about electing the leaders you want, than it is about being able to peacefully get rid of leaders you don't.

 

[untermensche]

Hitler was also elected. Whether some fascist political entity like Hamas or the Nazi party can get elected via campaign promises or demonizing their opponents or whatever other means is irrelevant. What's important is that Hamas government utterly failed, ended up starting a minor civil war, purged their political opponents from Gaza and have not allowed new elections since. And that was almost ten years ago.

Why is it that some people seem to think that having elections once is enough? You're supposed to do it at regular intervals. Democracy is a lot less about electing the leaders you want, than it is about being able to peacefully get rid of leaders you don't.

They didn't fail. They were immediately attacked and massive work to undermine them began the second they were elected.

It was a chance for Israel to actually reach out to an elected government.

But Israel has no desire for that.

NONE.

 

[Jayjay]

Hitler was also elected. Whether some fascist political entity like Hamas or the Nazi party can get elected via campaign promises or demonizing their opponents or whatever other means is irrelevant. What's important is that Hamas government utterly failed, ended up starting a minor civil war, purged their political opponents from Gaza and have not allowed new elections since. And that was almost ten years ago.

Why is it that some people seem to think that having elections once is enough? You're supposed to do it at regular intervals. Democracy is a lot less about electing the leaders you want, than it is about being able to peacefully get rid of leaders you don't.

They didn't fail. They were immediately attacked and massive work to undermine them began the second they were elected.

In other words, they failed. You're simply rationalizing what you perceive to be the reasons for the failure.

It was a chance for Israel to actually reach out to an elected government.

But Israel has no desire for that.

It was also a chance for Hamas to show that they can run Gaza peacefully, and that Israeli withdrawal leads to peace. They had no desire of that and instead use gaza as a rocket launching platform, and they permanently squandered any hope of democratic Palestinian state.

 

[angelo]

They could stop terrorist attacks against Israelis. There would be peace immediately.
Israel has every right to defend its citizens as it would be expected in every other nation on earth. Tell me why you think Israel has no right to defend itself?

The Palestinians say the same. It has a right to protect itself. Israeli war planes have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

That's because the terrorist have their rocket launchers in schools, shopping precincts, hospitals, then hide behind civilians. That's one reason. The other is that they wouldn't have one brain between them! Israel whips their arses every time. Israel is a tiny country with around 6 million inhabitants. Ten casualties to Israel is like ten thousand casualties to America.

 

[Jayjay]

The Palestinians say the same. It has a right to protect itself. Israeli war planes have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

That's because the terrorist have their rocket launchers in schools, shopping precincts, hospitals, then hide behind civilians. That's one reason. The other is that they wouldn't have one brain between them! Israel whips their arses every time. Israel is a tiny country with around 6 million inhabitants. Ten casualties to Israel is like ten thousand casualties to America.

Check your math. US population is roughly 320 million. Israeli population is about 8 million. That's 40:1, not 1000:1.

 

[angelo]

That's because the terrorist have their rocket launchers in schools, shopping precincts, hospitals, then hide behind civilians. That's one reason. The other is that they wouldn't have one brain between them! Israel whips their arses every time. Israel is a tiny country with around 6 million inhabitants. Ten casualties to Israel is like ten thousand casualties to America.

Check your math. US population is roughly 320 million. Israeli population is about 8 million. That's 40:1, not 1000:1.

1.6 million are Arabs living in democratic Israel. Those have the highest standard of living, not to mention freedom than any other Arab people in the region!.

 

[bilby]

That's because the terrorist have their rocket launchers in schools, shopping precincts, hospitals, then hide behind civilians. That's one reason. The other is that they wouldn't have one brain between them! Israel whips their arses every time. Israel is a tiny country with around 6 million inhabitants. Ten casualties to Israel is like ten thousand casualties to America.

Check your math. US population is roughly 320 million. Israeli population is about 8 million. That's 40:1, not 1000:1.

Don't go polluting this 'discussion' with facts.

Facts are of no importance here; what matters is to pick a side and dogmatically defend it regardless of any 'facts' or 'reality' that people might try to throw at you.