Europe submits voluntarily

[DrZoidberg]

I don't have to. Sweden has plenty of free space and plenty of money to build houses. This is a rich country. I have an open relationship with my girlfriend, so if she's into it, I wouldn't stop her.

yeah right, like that's really gonna work out - you know, Dr Zoid in the spare room whilst the GF has a nightly romp with her two arabic studs! Sound like some kind of cuck fest to me

ha ha... I think this betrays what your problems with immigration is. This is just your run-of-the-mill garden-variety racism, as well as sexism.

What is wrong with a woman picking up and having a threesome with a couple of men? If it's consensual and they're all happy... what is the problem with that? And how does the men's ethnicity in any way enter into this?

Cuckoldry refers to feelings of shame when one's girlfriend sleeps with others. I just don't have that hang-up. The feelings of shame have yet to manifest themselves. Since I also sleep with other women, as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out.

 

[Bomb#20]

Incidentally, if you'd abolish your anti-democratic party-list election method and adopt the Finnish version of proportional representation, your people wouldn't be put in the position of having to vote SD in order to be listened to just because the rest of the parties' bosses agree among themselves to leave your immigration skeptics nowhere else to turn. Party discipline would be shot; dissident politicians within the main parties could take their case to the voters instead of being answerable only to their bosses. Your political elites have no one to blame but themselves for the SD's rise in the standings.

Sweden and Finland have the same electoral system.

Perhaps my information is out-of-date; but according to Wikipedia,

The 'most open' list system is the one where the absolute amount of votes every candidate receives fully determines the "order of election" (the list ranking only possibly serving as a 'tiebreaker'). ... This system is used in all Finnish, Latvian and Brazilian multiple-seat elections.​

and

In elections in Sweden, the 'most open' list is used, but a person needs to receive 5% of the party's votes for the personal vote to overrule the ordering on the party list.​

With your main parties getting 113 and 84 seats, a 5% threshold is an enormous barrier to a low-position candidate unseating a high-position candidate even though the voters prefer her. Whoever controls the candidate order on a Swedish party list is going to have a lot more power than his counterpart in Finland.

Have the Swedish rules been changed recently? If so, glad to hear it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sweden and Finland have the same electoral system.

Perhaps my information is out-of-date; but according to Wikipedia,

The 'most open' list system is the one where the absolute amount of votes every candidate receives fully determines the "order of election" (the list ranking only possibly serving as a 'tiebreaker'). ... This system is used in all Finnish, Latvian and Brazilian multiple-seat elections.​

and

In elections in Sweden, the 'most open' list is used, but a person needs to receive 5% of the party's votes for the personal vote to overrule the ordering on the party list.​

With your main parties getting 113 and 84 seats, a 5% threshold is an enormous barrier to a low-position candidate unseating a high-position candidate even though the voters prefer her. Whoever controls the candidate order on a Swedish party list is going to have a lot more power than his counterpart in Finland.

Have the Swedish rules been changed recently? If so, glad to hear it.

Ok, I get what you mean. Voting for individual candidates is in practice irrelevant. Individuals never get enough votes for it to matter a damn, unless they're populist candidates. And we don't want any of those in power at all.

The change of the Swedish voting system to allow a more personalised voting was on purpose gimped in order for it to never matter. Research showed that there's a cut-off at 5%. It's not until above this number where it actually has an impact. So they put the limit at 5% to ensure it'll never have an impact. It was pandering to create this in the first place.

In practice there's no difference between the Finish and Swedish system. Finland will get more wild-card candidates. But those are alone and isolated and will never be able to push through anything. For that to happen you need a political party with a broad base in your back. That is true in any liberal democratic country with proportional representation. So these personal votes are completely irrelevant. In both Sweden and Finland. They might play them up occasionally. But in reality it's a pointless feature of our systems.

Personal votes only matter in majority systems like USA or Great Britain.

 

[angelo]

yeah right, like that's really gonna work out - you know, Dr Zoid in the spare room whilst the GF has a nightly romp with her two arabic studs! Sound like some kind of cuck fest to me

ha ha... I think this betrays what your problems with immigration is. This is just your run-of-the-mill garden-variety racism, as well as sexism.

What is wrong with a woman picking up and having a threesome with a couple of men? If it's consensual and they're all happy... what is the problem with that? And how does the men's ethnicity in any way enter into this?

Cuckoldry refers to feelings of shame when one's girlfriend sleeps with others. I just don't have that hang-up. The feelings of shame have yet to manifest themselves. Since I also sleep with other women, as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out.

But that's a stoning offence in islam.

 

[DrZoidberg]

ha ha... I think this betrays what your problems with immigration is. This is just your run-of-the-mill garden-variety racism, as well as sexism.

What is wrong with a woman picking up and having a threesome with a couple of men? If it's consensual and they're all happy... what is the problem with that? And how does the men's ethnicity in any way enter into this?

Cuckoldry refers to feelings of shame when one's girlfriend sleeps with others. I just don't have that hang-up. The feelings of shame have yet to manifest themselves. Since I also sleep with other women, as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out.

But that's a stoning offence in islam.

So what? Why should I care about it?

 

[Bar-Jesus]

What is wrong with a woman picking up and having a threesome with a couple of men? If it's consensual and they're all happy... what is the problem with that? And how does the men's ethnicity in any way enter into this?

if it's your GF and it's happening in the spare room, and you put up with it, then you must be some kind of a gimp

Cuckoldry refers to feelings of shame when one's girlfriend sleeps with others. I just don't have that hang-up. The feelings of shame have yet to manifest themselves. Since I also sleep with other women, as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out.

Cuckoldry is getting turned on by being the gimp


and do you really think those Arab lodgers of yours are gonna look upon you kindly for accepting this? LOL

 

[DrZoidberg]

if it's your GF and it's happening in the spare room, and you put up with it, then you must be some kind of a gimp

You have quite the imagination. It's like you're writing an erotic novel. So what happens next?

and do you really think those Arab lodgers of yours are gonna look upon you kindly for accepting this? LOL

I just don't care. People have all kinds of odd ideas regarding sex. And when it comes to casual encounters... who cares? All they need to be is look good, be attentive and good in bed. I've had sex with women with the vilest values and opinions and still enjoyed the sex. I'm fine with that. I'm not easily offended by other people's opinions. And certainly not by people I will never meet or see.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Perhaps, but how do you think your Arab bros will take it, hardly known for their lib values with this kind of thing.

and what's the next step? well of course, it will be to video the encounter and post it on the net

 

[DrZoidberg]

Perhaps, but how do you think your Arab bros will take it, hardly known for their lib values with this kind of thing.

1. Don't care.
2. This is nothing I've ever speculated on. And probably never will. I just don't give a shit.

and what's the next step? well of course, it will be to video the encounter and post it on the net

This is frankly just insane speculation on your part. You've left the reasonable and ventured far into paranoid delusion territory.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

except I guess 'liberal' Sweden outlaws that sort of thing though, and what is a guy supposed to do for sex there if he can't bag a chick without paying for it?

- - - Updated - - -

1. Don't care.
2. This is nothing I've ever speculated on. And probably never will. I just don't give a shit.

you don't care? but surely as a liberal you wouldn't want these kinds of social conservative coming to your country on masse?

 

[Juma]

except I guess 'liberal' Sweden outlaws that sort of thing though, and what is a guy supposed to do for sex there if he can't bag a chick without paying for it?

- - - Updated - - -

1. Don't care.
2. This is nothing I've ever speculated on. And probably never will. I just don't give a shit.

you don't care? but surely as a liberal you wouldn't want these kinds of social conservative coming to your country on masse?

There is a reason they come to sweden and it is not just about economy...

 

[DrZoidberg]

1. Don't care.
2. This is nothing I've ever speculated on. And probably never will. I just don't give a shit.

you don't care? but surely as a liberal you wouldn't want these kinds of social conservative coming to your country on masse?

These aren't the first Middle-Eastern immigrants Sweden has seen. I doubt it'll make any difference. Sweden is a bit odd. Swede's in general bow to authority. The elites are liberal. And the people's in general are conservative. This means that Sweden has been a hell of a lot more liberal in it's policies than what the people are. This is just a fact of Sweden. So things will keep being the same. I'm sure of it.

 

[dystopian]

Sweden is a bit odd. Swede's in general bow to authority. The elites are liberal. And the people's in general are conservative.

That's not really that odd. The Netherlands is much the same way. The elites tend to be more liberal than the masses; though I wouldn't say the masses are truly conservative as much as they are less inclined to look past the immediate concerns of themselves and those around them. Advancing the rights of X isn't something they're generally opposed to the way a conservative would be, they just don't care enough to actively support it either. In terms of bowing to authority, we're traditionally a consensus driven society; it's not that we bow to authority, it's that we bow to the perceived consensus in most situations. Immigrants will be absorbed into the consensus-driven model if they want to get anything done here. So far it seems to work quite well actually, not withstanding the non-reality based views of some less intellectually gifted people in our national landscape.

 

[Bomb#20]

But they do have a much higher rate of producing grandchildren in Europe; and a population's growth rate is determined by number of grandchildren, not by birthrate. A birthrate of 2 children per couple equals 2,2,2... when locals marry locals, but it equals 2,4,8... when locals marry foreigners and the foreign spouse immigrates.

And when locals marry foreigners and the local spouse emigrates, the rate equals 2, 0, 0. That's not just a hypothetical, that's actually happening: There's been consistently every year more migration from Germany to Turkey than vice versa for almost a decade now. http://mediendienst-integration.de/migration/wer-kommt-wer-geht.html (graph under the rider "Anzahl der Türken in Deutschland").

Sure. But Germany is kind of unusual in this respect: its Muslim population is massively dominated by people with origins in one country, and that country isn't a basket case. This subthread came from a discussion about Sweden. Swedes who marry Iraqis and Syrians and Somalis don't normally move to those countries. (Emigration to Iran is fairly common, though.) The method dystopian was relying on may well be appropriate for Germany; but like politics, all demographic projections are local. It isn't reasonable to take for granted that roughly 2 kids per couple means you won't get exponential growth of a subpopulation. First you have to find out how commonly "retrieve marriage" is practiced.

Exactly how does being nice to the migrants we have now work if the rationalisation for stopping to bring in more is explicitly "they're Muslims, we don't need no Muslims"?

Why would the fact that you don't need someone stop you from being nice to him? Most of us encounter people we don't need every day and aren't mean to them. It's not as though a migrant came where he wasn't needed because he's a bad person; he came because he was living in a pesthole -- if we'd been in his shoes most of us would have done the same. And it's not as though being mean to him is likely to get him to go home -- even if life in Sweden stinks because people are mean to him, it's still better than where he was. Besides, if the locals let someone in and are then mean to him, that's a recipe for disaster -- he'll probably have a kid who'll grow up angry and uncooperative and destructive because he resents Swedes for being mean.

 

[angelo]

Yes but who made the " pesthole" as you call it? By huge numbers of these people fleeing from said " pesthole" and settling in Europe and bringing with them a backward, unchanging culture, they'll make the host nation a " pesthole" in a few decades as well!

 

[Jokodo]

Yes but who made the " pesthole" as you call it? By huge numbers of these people fleeing from said " pesthole" and settling in Europe and bringing with them a backward, unchanging culture, they'll make the host nation a " pesthole" in a few decades as well!

Just like when Irish and German immigrants started to arrive en masse in the US, famine broke out in New England and the Midwest became politically fractured into a multitude of city-states

 

[Jokodo]

And when locals marry foreigners and the local spouse emigrates, the rate equals 2, 0, 0. That's not just a hypothetical, that's actually happening: There's been consistently every year more migration from Germany to Turkey than vice versa for almost a decade now. http://mediendienst-integration.de/migration/wer-kommt-wer-geht.html (graph under the rider "Anzahl der Türken in Deutschland").

Sure. But Germany is kind of unusual in this respect: its Muslim population is massively dominated by people with origins in one country, and that country isn't a basket case. This subthread came from a discussion about Sweden. Swedes who marry Iraqis and Syrians and Somalis don't normally move to those countries. (Emigration to Iran is fairly common, though.) The method dystopian was relying on may well be appropriate for Germany; but like politics, all demographic projections are local. It isn't reasonable to take for granted that roughly 2 kids per couple means you won't get exponential growth of a subpopulation. First you have to find out how commonly "retrieve marriage" is practiced.

Whatever this subthread came from, dystopian's post to which you replied talked about "muslims and other descended-from-immigrant populations in Europe" so that's what your "they" in "they do have a much higher rate of producing grandchildren in Europe" clearly refers to. Limiting it to Somalis in Sweden post-hoc is goalpost shifting.

Exactly how does being nice to the migrants we have now work if the rationalisation for stopping to bring in more is explicitly "they're Muslims, we don't need no Muslims"?

Why would the fact that you don't need someone stop you from being nice to him? Most of us encounter people we don't need every day and aren't mean to them. It's not as though a migrant came where he wasn't needed because he's a bad person; he came because he was living in a pesthole -- if we'd been in his shoes most of us would have done the same. And it's not as though being mean to him is likely to get him to go home -- even if life in Sweden stinks because people are mean to him, it's still better than where he was. Besides, if the locals let someone in and are then mean to him, that's a recipe for disaster -- he'll probably have a kid who'll grow up angry and uncooperative and destructive because he resents Swedes for being mean.

Except that's not how people work. If you indoctrinate them that Muslims are bad for us, they'll take it out on the closest targets at hand - which is domestic Muslims.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Yes but who made the " pesthole" as you call it? By huge numbers of these people fleeing from said " pesthole" and settling in Europe and bringing with them a backward, unchanging culture, they'll make the host nation a " pesthole" in a few decades as well!

Just like when Irish and German immigrants started to arrive en masse in the US, famine broke out in New England and the Midwest became politically fractured into a multitude of city-states

The difference is that the European migration is an unprecedented tidal wave rather than a flow.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Just like when Irish and German immigrants started to arrive en masse in the US, famine broke out in New England and the Midwest became politically fractured into a multitude of city-states

The difference is that the European migration is an unprecedented tidal wave rather than a flow.

Nah... this is the norm. Migration is usually in massive floods over short periods of time. Just what we're seeing now. What it also means is that we know exactly how societies cope. They cope fine. What we're seeing now is a piss in the sea compared to how people moved around surrounding WW2. And back then life was a lot harder than now. If we managed then, we'll manage just fine now.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes but who made the " pesthole" as you call it? By huge numbers of these people fleeing from said " pesthole" and settling in Europe and bringing with them a backward, unchanging culture, they'll make the host nation a " pesthole" in a few decades as well!

Do you have anything to back this up with other than your hunch? Here's my prediction. They'll move to the west and become just as modern and liberal as us within one generation. What am I basing this on you ask. Every other immigration wave from anywhere to anywhere.