Europe - The Barbarian Invasion has Begun.

[DrZoidberg]

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

What are you on about, these refugee types can go to other countries in ME or just stay in Greece, which shouldn't be in the EU anyway

or of course they could just stay in Syria and tough it out

Why shouldn't Greece be in the EU? You are aware Europe is a Greek word?

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Because they have deliberately crashed their economy in order to parasite EU funds

 

[Jokodo]

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

What are you on about, these refugee types can go to other countries in ME or just stay in Greece, which shouldn't be in the EU anyway

Whether Greece should be in the EU is irrelevant. What's relevant is that Greece is a small country of around 10 million inhabitant with a struggling economy. If you think that a couple million refugees spread over the richest countries of Europe are an unbearable strain, it should be a no-brainer to you that a couple million in Greece is a certain recipe for disaster.

or of course they could just stay in Syria and tough it out

Just like the Aztecs enemies could stay out of Mexico if they don't want to be caught and slaughtered.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Hey, I thought all you pro-immigration types believed that this was the way to success - hence the more in Greece the better! Just think of all those nice low wages.

Those in Syria can join the system, join a faction or work in the backline - but running away, well , that doesn't entitle you to a third party's assets.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because they have deliberately crashed their economy in order to parasite EU funds

ha ha ha. "deliberately". That's like "deliberately" shitting your pants at the opera because your life's goal is just to make everybody else's life as miserable as possible. Or that's what they accuse you of if they're stupid.

Greece has had structural problems dating back to the Ottoman occupation. They never managed to create a culture of civic pride. It was the tragedy of the commons problem. Until most of them was on board with paying taxes it was in nobody's self interest to start paying taxes. So they all avoided to do it if possible. And Since all Greeks assumed their politicians were a bunch of lying corrupt bastards (not unique in the world) they just didn't trust their politicians when they gave them the news their economy was in order. So they didn't care. And voted for Papandreu, who told them everything was fine.

A perfect analogy is global warming. Unless we're all on-board with fixing this nobody is going to be bothered. Until then it'll just be a bunch of empty gestures and rapidly forgotten slogans. And too many will keep voting for climate change deniers.

Structural problems are hard to fix. They usually need a complete crash before they can be dealt with. Sweden had a problem with runaway public spending. It required a crash (1993) before we could deal with it. Now Sweden is one of Europes most prosperous countries. USA had several problems regarding how their financial markets operated. It needed a crash in 2008 before the necessary regulation was in place. They're already more or less back to where they were before the crash, but without the stupid loans available. And so on and so on.

I'm sure Greece will be fine. But blaming them for this, as if they could have fixed this prior to the crash is ignoring everything we know about human nature. We're a bunch of stupid monkeys in love with group-think.

 

[iolo]

The EU accepted Greece although everyone said their economy wasn't ready, and the results for ordinary Greeks have been disastrous. It seems to me it was the EU's mistake, however, and they owe something.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The EU accepted Greece although everyone said their economy wasn't ready, and the results for ordinary Greeks have been disastrous. It seems to me it was the EU's mistake, however, and they owe something.

I think that's an absurdly simplistic explanation. Also... wouldn't have solved shit. Greece had a much deeper problem that went back decades. EU had nothing to do with that. The fact that EU helped exaggerate an already existing systematic flaw in Greek civic society isn't the fault of EU. But all of this is hind-sight. Economics is a complicated subject. It might have worked out fine. Nobody knew for sure. Now we know.

I get that you love the blame game and are trying to point to the bad guy here. But problems in systems rarely have a discreet culprit. The mathematical term is "complex". This is a complex problem with plenty of moving parts. No single constituent component is solely to blame and adjusting just a couple of things here and there could have fixed or fucked the entire system.

We've already had a Greek crisis thread that went through all this in detail

 

[Jayjay]

We need to be careful even with the genuine refugees. The problem is refugees will include political opponents--in other words, an ISIS sympathizer would qualify as a refugee from Syria.

I have no problem with the moderates from Syria.

Oh, for fucks sake. Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

Maybe they sympathize with their lives more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because they have deliberately crashed their economy in order to parasite EU funds

No. They haven't deliberately crashed their economy.

Rather, they were faced with a rock vs hard place problem: If they cut back government spending to what they could afford without EU subsidies they would be promptly voted out of office. Thus they kept on overspending, kicking the can down the road until it blew up the Greek economy.

While the crash was basically inevitable it wasn't intended thus not deliberate.

 

[Bomb#20]

The solution for the barbarian invasion is for Euro governments to stop allowing unskilled muslim immigration. That should solve the problem relatively quickly and easily.

Said the Aztecs: The solution to the sun falling from the sky and burning everything in its wake is to behead as many prisoners as you can round up as a sacrifice to the sun-god every Tuesday and Friday. That has reliably stopped the sun from falling for hundreds of years.

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

How do you figure it will reliably lead to the deaths of people? Actually, it's letting refugees into Europe that's going to reliably lead to people's deaths. According to Radio Sweden,

"Last fall, counted eight billion crowns from the aid budget to be used for part of the costs of the increasing number of refugees coming to Sweden.

There is a fifth of the aid budget in total is around 40 billion

It is permissible for Sweden, according to the OECD rules, to take eight billions of aid money to refugees. But it is very controversial.

Aid agencies are protesting against the money earmarked for poverty reduction in developing countries instead used in this country.
...
The question is which development projects that will be laid down on the grounds that several hundred million more will go to the refugee center?"​

(Source, via Google Translate)

It's a lot cheaper to keep a Syrian alive in a refugee camp in Turkey or Lebanon than it is to set him up in a new home in Sweden. However much money the Swedes are willing to spend in order to save Syrians' lives, they'll save more Syrian lives with that money if they spend it on refugee relief closer to the refugee source.

 

[Jokodo]

Said the Aztecs: The solution to the sun falling from the sky and burning everything in its wake is to behead as many prisoners as you can round up as a sacrifice to the sun-god every Tuesday and Friday. That has reliably stopped the sun from falling for hundreds of years.

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

How do you figure it will reliably lead to the deaths of people? Actually, it's letting refugees into Europe that's going to reliably lead to people's deaths. According to Radio Sweden,

"Last fall, counted eight billion crowns from the aid budget to be used for part of the costs of the increasing number of refugees coming to Sweden.

There is a fifth of the aid budget in total is around 40 billion

It is permissible for Sweden, according to the OECD rules, to take eight billions of aid money to refugees. But it is very controversial.

Aid agencies are protesting against the money earmarked for poverty reduction in developing countries instead used in this country.
...
The question is which development projects that will be laid down on the grounds that several hundred million more will go to the refugee center?"​

(Source, via Google Translate)

It's a lot cheaper to keep a Syrian alive in a refugee camp in Turkey or Lebanon than it is to set him up in a new home in Sweden. However much money the Swedes are willing to spend in order to save Syrians' lives, they'll save more Syrian lives with that money if they spend it on refugee relief closer to the refugee source.

Yes, it is initially cheaper to keep a Syrian refugee alive in Turkey or Lebanon (not on the long run though - keeping them in refugee camps basically means to make sure they won't become self-sufficient ever). But even on short timescales your logic only works if there's a fixed amount of money e.g. Sweden will spend regardless. That's just not the case. It's so much easier to rationalise things as "not our problem" when they're happening a few thousand km away.

Indeed, many European countries have slashed their contributions to the UNHCR dedicated to Syrian refugees in the last couple of years - before the numbers of Syrian refugees making it here surged. That's actually a big part of the reason for the surge in the first place.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

Seriously? Um. Let me think...

Because it's a freakin' war zone?

Because their homes were bombed by the Russians?

Because they live in some region overrun by Assad's troops?

Because their families aren't ISIS sympathizers and want to leave?

Because being an ISIS sympathizer doesn't mean you aren't a coward?

Because...

Actually, that's kind of a good point: A certain number of those refugees are possibly DEFECTORS who originally left to join ISIS and may now be having second thoughts.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Said the Aztecs: The solution to the sun falling from the sky and burning everything in its wake is to behead as many prisoners as you can round up as a sacrifice to the sun-god every Tuesday and Friday. That has reliably stopped the sun from falling for hundreds of years.

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

How do you figure it will reliably lead to the deaths of people? Actually, it's letting refugees into Europe that's going to reliably lead to people's deaths. According to Radio Sweden,

"Last fall, counted eight billion crowns from the aid budget to be used for part of the costs of the increasing number of refugees coming to Sweden.

There is a fifth of the aid budget in total is around 40 billion

It is permissible for Sweden, according to the OECD rules, to take eight billions of aid money to refugees. But it is very controversial.

Aid agencies are protesting against the money earmarked for poverty reduction in developing countries instead used in this country.
...
The question is which development projects that will be laid down on the grounds that several hundred million more will go to the refugee center?"​

(Source, via Google Translate)

It's a lot cheaper to keep a Syrian alive in a refugee camp in Turkey or Lebanon than it is to set him up in a new home in Sweden. However much money the Swedes are willing to spend in order to save Syrians' lives, they'll save more Syrian lives with that money if they spend it on refugee relief closer to the refugee source.

Depends on how you do that math. It's of course always cheaper to move the refugee to a place where he/she can get on with their lives and get a job. Generate an income. Than lying on their backs staring up at the canvas of a tent. If you only sum the cost column then yes, it's cheaper at the source. But if you sum both columns then no.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

I'm sure Greece will be fine. But blaming them for this, as if they could have fixed this prior to the crash is ignoring everything we know about human nature. We're a bunch of stupid monkeys in love with group-think.

These toads had their chance to turn down the latest bailout and start Tabula Rasa - as you say was needed. But guess what, no, they voted for the EU bailout cash to keep the gravy train going!

For this, they should be kicked out of the EU, and Tsipras out of the Syriza party for selling it out.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

No. They haven't deliberately crashed their economy.

Rather, they were faced with a rock vs hard place problem: If they cut back government spending to what they could afford without EU subsidies they would be promptly voted out of office. Thus they kept on overspending, kicking the can down the road until it blew up the Greek economy.

While the crash was basically inevitable it wasn't intended thus not deliberate.

Same thing, these people should have sorted out their system, not wait for the inevitable EU handout.
And now look where all the refugees are going, - to soft touch Greece who can use the 'crisis' for more pocket money from Merkel

 

[Will Wiley]

I'm very concerned about the fabric of society.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

sounds like a good idea, I'll go to that rally if possible

 

[jonatha]

I'm very concerned about the fabric of society.

View attachment 4831

I wonder how they feel about wool, linen, and polyester...

 

[iolo]

The EU accepted Greece although everyone said their economy wasn't ready, and the results for ordinary Greeks have been disastrous. It seems to me it was the EU's mistake, however, and they owe something.

I think that's an absurdly simplistic explanation. Also... wouldn't have solved shit. Greece had a much deeper problem that went back decades. EU had nothing to do with that. The fact that EU helped exaggerate an already existing systematic flaw in Greek civic society isn't the fault of EU. But all of this is hind-sight. Economics is a complicated subject. It might have worked out fine. Nobody knew for sure. Now we know.

I get that you love the blame game and are trying to point to the bad guy here. But problems in systems rarely have a discreet culprit. The mathematical term is "complex". This is a complex problem with plenty of moving parts. No single constituent component is solely to blame and adjusting just a couple of things here and there could have fixed or fucked the entire system.

We've already had a Greek crisis thread that went through all this in detail

Greece was accepted. Why?

 

[thebeave]

I'm very concerned about the fabric of society.

View attachment 4831

Holy Sheet!