Europe - The Barbarian Invasion has Begun.

[Jokodo]

WHAT?!

They were THE major world power in opposition to Christian Europe for seven hundred years!

Where do you even GET this nonsense?

There was a period where they were a world power. Then they got left behind technologically and were has-beens. Now with oil they have the money to become a power again, although only by terrorist means.

The intent has always been expansionist.

"They".

You know what expanstionist extent looks like? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uubLkmymPA

 

[Crazy Eddie]

WHAT?!

They were THE major world power in opposition to Christian Europe for seven hundred years!

Where do you even GET this nonsense?

There was a period where they were a world power. Then they got left behind technologically and were has-beens. Now with oil they have the money to become a power again...

And their current efforts are driven by little more than nostalgia for the good old days when the Islamic Empire was actually a thing.

But oil money doesn't build an empire, not by itself. ISIS lacks the intellectual capital, the military prowess, the sense of purpose or clarity that its predecessors possessed; they're just a gang imitating greatness.

This is not the case, however, for Pakistan or Iran or even Saudi Arabia. These aren't terrorist bands, but COUNTRIES, whose leaders are far more concerned with governing effectively than they are with creating chaos and mayhem. We are fast approaching a time when the stable Islamic governments of the world will be in a position to think about finding common ground, banding together for mutual cooperation and forging the modern equivalent of a new Islamic Empire. Probably an Islamic Union or the Muslim equivalent of NATO.

The intent has always been expansionist.

And it probably always will. But armed gangs of knuckle-draggers with AK-47s aren't going to accomplish that.

The Christian Empire was just as expansionist, and when the Muslims went into decline they went on to conquer most of the world in an orgy of violence and bloodshed. I'd like to think humanity is done with that crap, but the power vacuum from the eventual decline of the American Empire has to be filled by SOMETHING.

The good news is, it probably won't be the Persians or the Arabs; it looks like it's going to be China's turn to run the world for a bit. The rise of the new Muslim Empire will most likely be THEIR problem, and good luck to them.

 

[Underseer]

This anti-refugee sentiment is utterly sickening, and frankly subhuman.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.686976

Look, when you treat Muslims so badly that large groups of Jews speak out against you, you have crossed a very important line and it is time for self reflection.

 

[angelo]

Not many would argue against compassion for genuine refugees. It's the economic migrants most people argue against. The lines of of up to 70% of them males, those are causing decent people to put up the barriers.

 

[bilby]

Not many would argue against compassion for genuine refugees. It's the economic migrants most people argue against. The lines of of up to 70% of them males, those are causing decent people to put up the barriers.

You do realise that 'Up to 70%' means 'any number between zero and 70%', right?

It is a popular tactic when trying to exaggerate a number, particularly when selling something to somebody. Whenever you see "Up to X %" bandied about, your first thought should be "What are they trying to sell me, and do I want to buy it from somebody who is attempting to manipulate me with bad statistics?".

 

[Jayjay]

Not many would argue against compassion for genuine refugees. It's the economic migrants most people argue against. The lines of of up to 70% of them males, those are causing decent people to put up the barriers.

Which is why the best way to deal with the refugees would be to allow them to apply from the camps where they are now. The rules that they have to illegally sneak into whatever country in Europe they want to go, just to file an application which may be rejected anyway, is ridiculous. And if they get caught somewhere along the way, they have to either stay in that country or go back and try again. It's this pointless gauntlet that pretty much ensures that the arrivals are mostly young men.

If EU started processing the applications directly from the camps it would make smuggling unnecessary (for those who seek legal asylum anyway) and they could better help the women, children and families.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not many would argue against compassion for genuine refugees. It's the economic migrants most people argue against. The lines of of up to 70% of them males, those are causing decent people to put up the barriers.

Which is why the best way to deal with the refugees would be to allow them to apply from the camps where they are now. The rules that they have to illegally sneak into whatever country in Europe they want to go, just to file an application which may be rejected anyway, is ridiculous. And if they get caught somewhere along the way, they have to either stay in that country or go back and try again. It's this pointless gauntlet that pretty much ensures that the arrivals are mostly young men.

If EU started processing the applications directly from the camps it would make smuggling unnecessary (for those who seek legal asylum anyway) and they could better help the women, children and families.

These rules are hard to understand for the people born in the countries. I volunteer at a homeless shelter. Yesterday I spent an hour helping an African man apply for jobs. He told me he had lived 20 years in Italy and had permanent residency there. After I'd done that and the African man left with a smile on his face, another volunteer told me that Italy has very complicated rules and several tiers of temporary residency. They never give proper permanent residency to Africans for rasist reasons. So this guy probably didn't have it either. They give them a bizarre array of hoops to jump through to ensure they can never succeed in Europe. That's the point of the rules. But they never explain how the rules work. The Africans just need to figure it out as they go along. And as the rules are different for the different tiers makes it hard to compare stories and routes to success. And like I said first, the rules are pretty impenetrable even for natives. They make no sense. They're just complicated for the hell of it.

An example, the guy I helped is eligible for a job in Sweden as long as his new Swedish employer physically travels to Italy to sign on the dotted line. The rule only exists to make life harder for immigrants. There's more examples. This guy has 10 years experience in high tech industry. He can operate fancy machinery. He's got references and everything. Sweden needs this particular skill. We have a shortage. Italy is in an economic crisis and doesn't. In Ghana he was a pig farmer. They don't need more pig farmers Ghana. Especially not pig farmers with experience operating fancy machinery in high tech industry.

edit: For the record. I don't understand why we have a problem excepting immigration for economic reasons.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

The solution for the barbarian invasion is for Euro governments to stop allowing unskilled muslim immigration. That should solve the problem relatively quickly and easily.

 

[Jokodo]

The solution for the barbarian invasion is for Euro governments to stop allowing unskilled muslim immigration. That should solve the problem relatively quickly and easily.

Said the Aztecs: The solution to the sun falling from the sky and burning everything in its wake is to behead as many prisoners as you can round up as a sacrifice to the sun-god every Tuesday and Friday. That has reliably stopped the sun from falling for hundreds of years.

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

 

[ksen]

Man, imagine if capital had this much trouble moving from one country to another.

 

[jonatha]

Man, imagine if capital had this much trouble moving from one country to another.

ISIS would have much less money, for one thing...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not many would argue against compassion for genuine refugees. It's the economic migrants most people argue against. The lines of of up to 70% of them males, those are causing decent people to put up the barriers.

We need to be careful even with the genuine refugees. The problem is refugees will include political opponents--in other words, an ISIS sympathizer would qualify as a refugee from Syria.

I have no problem with the moderates from Syria.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not many would argue against compassion for genuine refugees. It's the economic migrants most people argue against. The lines of of up to 70% of them males, those are causing decent people to put up the barriers.

We need to be careful even with the genuine refugees. The problem is refugees will include political opponents--in other words, an ISIS sympathizer would qualify as a refugee from Syria.

I have no problem with the moderates from Syria.

Oh, for fucks sake. Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

 

[angelo]

We need to be careful even with the genuine refugees. The problem is refugees will include political opponents--in other words, an ISIS sympathizer would qualify as a refugee from Syria.

I have no problem with the moderates from Syria.

Oh, for fucks sake. Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

Why indeed! To convert the infidels, why else!

 

[Jokodo]

Oh, for fucks sake. Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

Why indeed! To convert the infidels, why else!

This just shows that you don't understand ISIS at all. They are very clear that they want all "True Muslims" to come and live in their territory. For them, choosing to live in infidel lands is in itself a form of apostasy. Even when it comes to European ISIS sympathizers, they mostly beg those to come to Syria/Iraq. Blowing up stuff in Paris is only second best if you can't make it to Syria, going by ISIS's own propaganda.

ETA:

If Muslim refugees come to Europe and are welcomed, it deeply undercuts the Islamic State's legitimacy. Aaron Zelin, a fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, has helpfully catalogued some of the Islamic State's messages on the refugees pouring into Europe from the Middle East. The messages give the impression of deep discomfort and even jealousy that the Muslim population the Islamic State so covets for its self-proclaimed "caliphate" would rather live in "infidel" Western lands.

“Would You Exchange What Is Better For What Is Less?" is the title of one video message. It sounds more than a little like a note from a jilted ex.​

Read more.

 

[Jokodo]

Also, some perspective please: There are thousands of European nationals fighting for ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Even if some ISIS sympathizers are hiding among the refugees despite their leadership urging them to stay, Europe remains a net exporter of terrorism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also, some perspective please: There are thousands of European nationals fighting for ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Even if some ISIS sympathizers are hiding among the refugees despite their leadership urging them to stay, Europe remains a net exporter of terrorism.

Exactly. ISIS main tool of recruitment is the Internet. They're very good at Interwebs. They don't need to leave Syria to recruit. So why would they?

Also, ISIS is set up like a brainwashing cult. Just like any totalitarian state. The USSR for instance. They don't want people to leave and move about freely. Brainwashing requires constant re-enforcement. The isolation of converts from the non-converts. So it makes no sense for them to allow people to leave. It would break the pattern for how this sort of movement has been organised historically.

 

[Bomb#20]

Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

Seriously? Um. Let me think...

Because it's a freakin' war zone?

Because their homes were bombed by the Russians?

Because they live in some region overrun by Assad's troops?

Because their families aren't ISIS sympathizers and want to leave?

Because being an ISIS sympathizer doesn't mean you aren't a coward?

Because...

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why would ISIS sympathisers leave Syria?

Seriously? Um. Let me think...

Because it's a freakin' war zone?

Because their homes were bombed by the Russians?

Because they live in some region overrun by Assad's troops?

Because their families aren't ISIS sympathizers and want to leave?

Because being an ISIS sympathizer doesn't mean you aren't a coward?

Because...

Even in a war zone regular day to day life continues much like normal. And people get used to it. It becomes the new normal.

I think it's always braver to flee than to stay. Fleeing is months on the road in uncertainty. Staying is usually the safer bet, even in a war zone.

If they're in a region over-run by Assad's troops it makes no sense to run in the opposite direction from where their friends are.

I don't think you've really thought this through. I don't think an ISIS sympathiser in Syria has any reason to leave Syria.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

And yes, that's parallel: In both cases you're proposing actions that reliably lead to the deaths of people in order to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist, and, to the extent that it does, is not even mitigated by your actions.

What are you on about, these refugee types can go to other countries in ME or just stay in Greece, which shouldn't be in the EU anyway

or of course they could just stay in Syria and tough it out