European nations recognizing Palestine?

[Arctish]

Look at the human rights of both sides and you can't possibly place a pox on both their houses. Hamas use the billions given them in aid by the west to build terror tunnels and buy offensive weapons instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians as does Israel. Human rights and gender equality is non existent in ALL Arab nations. I find it hard to believe these people have so many apologist in the West. Surely they have access to the same sources as I have?
Many Palestinians are victims themselves of these extremists, yet sit by and let it happen.

Do you honestly think the Israelis will let Hamas build bomb shelters?

 

[laughing dog]

Look at the human rights of both sides and you can't possibly place a pox on both their houses. Hamas use the billions given them in aid by the west to build terror tunnels and buy offensive weapons instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians as does Israel.

To be fair, the bomb shelters in Gaza would have to be much more numerous and more expensive than those in Israel given the imbalance in firepower and aim.

L
Human rights and gender equality is non existent in ALL Arab nations. I find it hard to believe these people have so many apologist in the West. Surely they have access to the same sources as I have?

Apparently they have access to less bigoted and ignorant sources, because the notion that there are no human rights in ALL ARAB nations is fucking ridiculous.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Look at the human rights of both sides and you can't possibly place a pox on both their houses. Hamas use the billions given them in aid by the west to build terror tunnels and buy offensive weapons instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians as does Israel. Human rights and gender equality is non existent in ALL Arab nations. I find it hard to believe these people have so many apologist in the West. Surely they have access to the same sources as I have?
Many Palestinians are victims themselves of these extremists, yet sit by and let it happen.

Do you honestly think the Israelis will let Hamas build bomb shelters?

Why wouldn't they? No bomb shelter is going to be able to protect Hamas leadership (that's why they use hospitals as bases during times of war), shelters that protect against incidental casualties aren't an issue.

It's not going to happen because Hamas wants those casualties. They sacrifice their people and people lap it up as evidence of Israel being bad.

 

[untermensche]

Do you honestly think the Israelis will let Hamas build bomb shelters?

Why wouldn't they?

Because it is a real defense.

Israel likes to attack defenseless enemies. Bomb em, and take a bulldozer to the home of some defenseless woman.

Israeli reprisals come at a regular pace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why wouldn't they?

Because it is a real defense.

Israel likes to attack defenseless enemies. Bomb em, and take a bulldozer to the home of some defenseless woman.

Israeli reprisals come at a regular pace.

You're making assumptions here that have basically nothing to do with reality.

If Israel were actually trying to kill civilians they would do a far better job of it. When you drop even a 500# bomb in a city and don't kill anyone that takes care.

 

[angelo]

Look at the human rights of both sides and you can't possibly place a pox on both their houses. Hamas use the billions given them in aid by the west to build terror tunnels and buy offensive weapons instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians as does Israel. Human rights and gender equality is non existent in ALL Arab nations. I find it hard to believe these people have so many apologist in the West. Surely they have access to the same sources as I have?
Many Palestinians are victims themselves of these extremists, yet sit by and let it happen.

Do you honestly think the Israelis will let Hamas build bomb shelters?

So it's the Israelis fault Hamas builds terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters??

 

[Arctish]

Do you honestly think the Israelis will let Hamas build bomb shelters?

So it's the Israelis fault Hamas builds terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters??

That's a very transparent attempt to shift the goalposts.

Years ago, on the great-grandparent DB of this current DB, a number of posters were complaining about the PA not taking out terrorists fast enough to suit Israel. So I asked them if they supported giving the PA the weapons, equipment, and training it needed to take on a modern terrorist force like Hamas. All of a sudden, those same posters were screaming about what a terrible idea it was for the PA to be able to mount an FBI-quality surveillance program, or to have the equivalent of Delta Force fighters trained and equipped to take down the worst of the worst. They wanted to make the PA responsible for fighting terrorism but they didn't want the PA to be strong enough to actually do it.

I believe a similar thought process is behind the complaints about Hamas not building bomb shelters. I think some posters want to blame Hamas for the lack of shelters Gazans can use when Israel sends artillery fire, missiles, and drones their way, but at the same time they don't want there to be bomb shelters where Hamas fighters and their supporters can be safe from artillery fire, missiles, and drones.

So that's why I am asking you if you honestly think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters. If the answer is yes, I think you have a very unrealistic view of things. If the answer is no, then why blame Hamas for not doing something they couldn't do anyway?

 

[untermensche]

Because it is a real defense.

Israel likes to attack defenseless enemies. Bomb em, and take a bulldozer to the home of some defenseless woman.

Israeli reprisals come at a regular pace.

You're making assumptions here that have basically nothing to do with reality.

If Israel were actually trying to kill civilians they would do a far better job of it. When you drop even a 500# bomb in a city and don't kill anyone that takes care.

I see little difference between deliberately killing civilians and not caring much if you kill civilians.

Israel just doesn't value Palestinian life very much.

How else could you explain Israel deliberately crushing and hindering the Palestinian economy non-stop for decades?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you honestly think the Israelis will let Hamas build bomb shelters?

So it's the Israelis fault Hamas builds terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters??

And note that the tunnels will act as bomb shelters. If Hamas wants to reduce casualties why not have people take cover in them?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Years ago, on the great-grandparent DB of this current DB, a number of posters were complaining about the PA not taking out terrorists fast enough to suit Israel. So I asked them if they supported giving the PA the weapons, equipment, and training it needed to take on a modern terrorist force like Hamas. All of a sudden, those same posters were screaming about what a terrible idea it was for the PA to be able to mount an FBI-quality surveillance program, or to have the equivalent of Delta Force fighters trained and equipped to take down the worst of the worst. They wanted to make the PA responsible for fighting terrorism but they didn't want the PA to be strong enough to actually do it.

Of course we complained--because they wouldn't be terrorist-hunters, but Israeli-hunters. It's not merely a case of the fox guarding the henhouse, but the foxes own the henhouse.

I believe a similar thought process is behind the complaints about Hamas not building bomb shelters. I think some posters want to blame Hamas for the lack of shelters Gazans can use when Israel sends artillery fire, missiles, and drones their way, but at the same time they don't want there to be bomb shelters where Hamas fighters and their supporters can be safe from artillery fire, missiles, and drones.

So that's why I am asking you if you honestly think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters. If the answer is yes, I think you have a very unrealistic view of things. If the answer is no, then why blame Hamas for not doing something they couldn't do anyway?

Your thinking we have an unrealistic view of things isn't evidence.

I see no reason that Israel would give a hoot about bomb shelters. If Israel wants to crack something that Hamas builds they can do it, a bomb shelter is of no military advantage to Hamas. (And note that Hamas doesn't try to construct bomb shelters even for it's own leadership--they know they can't build something strong enough. Instead they rely on human shields to protect their leaders.)

- - - Updated - - -

You're making assumptions here that have basically nothing to do with reality.

If Israel were actually trying to kill civilians they would do a far better job of it. When you drop even a 500# bomb in a city and don't kill anyone that takes care.

I see little difference between deliberately killing civilians and not caring much if you kill civilians.

If Israel didn't care then they wouldn't go out of their way to reduce civilian casualties.

How else could you explain Israel deliberately crushing and hindering the Palestinian economy non-stop for decades?

1) For the most part it's Hamas doing the crushing. The Palestinian economy was much better before the Second Intifada.

2) The worse the economy the less money is available for war.

 

[untermensche]

You're making assumptions here that have basically nothing to do with reality.

If Israel were actually trying to kill civilians they would do a far better job of it. When you drop even a 500# bomb in a city and don't kill anyone that takes care.

I see little difference between deliberately killing civilians and not caring much if you kill civilians.

If Israel didn't care then they wouldn't go out of their way to reduce civilian casualties.

They don't. They simply say they do and some suckers believe them.

How else could you explain Israel deliberately crushing and hindering the Palestinian economy non-stop for decades?

1) For the most part it's Hamas doing the crushing. The Palestinian economy was much better before the Second Intifada.

2) The worse the economy the less money is available for war.

Israel was crushing the economy before Hamas existed. It is just crushing it harder now.

Crushing an economy for decades shows you don't give a damn about the people living with that economy.

 

[angelo]

So it's the Israelis fault Hamas builds terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters??

That's a very transparent attempt to shift the goalposts.

Years ago, on the great-grandparent DB of this current DB, a number of posters were complaining about the PA not taking out terrorists fast enough to suit Israel. So I asked them if they supported giving the PA the weapons, equipment, and training it needed to take on a modern terrorist force like Hamas. All of a sudden, those same posters were screaming about what a terrible idea it was for the PA to be able to mount an FBI-quality surveillance program, or to have the equivalent of Delta Force fighters trained and equipped to take down the worst of the worst. They wanted to make the PA responsible for fighting terrorism but they didn't want the PA to be strong enough to actually do it.

I believe a similar thought process is behind the complaints about Hamas not building bomb shelters. I think some posters want to blame Hamas for the lack of shelters Gazans can use when Israel sends artillery fire, missiles, and drones their way, but at the same time they don't want there to be bomb shelters where Hamas fighters and their supporters can be safe from artillery fire, missiles, and drones.

So that's why I am asking you if you honestly think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters. If the answer is yes, I think you have a very unrealistic view of things. If the answer is no, then why blame Hamas for not doing something they couldn't do anyway?

My gawd, you make Hamas sound like kindergarten teachers. You do acknowledge that it's a terrorist organasation right?

 

[Arctish]

That's a very transparent attempt to shift the goalposts.

Years ago, on the great-grandparent DB of this current DB, a number of posters were complaining about the PA not taking out terrorists fast enough to suit Israel. So I asked them if they supported giving the PA the weapons, equipment, and training it needed to take on a modern terrorist force like Hamas. All of a sudden, those same posters were screaming about what a terrible idea it was for the PA to be able to mount an FBI-quality surveillance program, or to have the equivalent of Delta Force fighters trained and equipped to take down the worst of the worst. They wanted to make the PA responsible for fighting terrorism but they didn't want the PA to be strong enough to actually do it.

I believe a similar thought process is behind the complaints about Hamas not building bomb shelters. I think some posters want to blame Hamas for the lack of shelters Gazans can use when Israel sends artillery fire, missiles, and drones their way, but at the same time they don't want there to be bomb shelters where Hamas fighters and their supporters can be safe from artillery fire, missiles, and drones.

So that's why I am asking you if you honestly think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters. If the answer is yes, I think you have a very unrealistic view of things. If the answer is no, then why blame Hamas for not doing something they couldn't do anyway?

My gawd, you make Hamas sound like kindergarten teachers. You do acknowledge that it's a terrorist organasation right?

Of course I acknowledge it. I acknowledged it right there in the part you quoted. Are you going to answer the question or are you just going to keep trying to change the subject?

Do you honestly think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters? Loren seems to think Israel would allow it because Israel knows it can destroy any bomb shelter Hamas is able to build (which makes building bomb shelters a waste of time and resources, btw). Do you agree with him, or do you have another view?

 

[angelo]

Israeli policy is to avoid civilian casualties as much as is humanly possible, unlike Hamas who aim indiscriminately at civilian areas of Israel. When one considers the density of the population in the Gaza strip to the civilian casualties, it is among the lowest in the world. There would be even less if Hamas spent the billions given them in aid on civilian bomb shelters, or on bettering the lot of the Palestinians as this aid is meant to do. Blaming Israel for the lack of such shelters as if the Israelis deliberately go out of their way to cause as many casualties as possible is bullshit and if you're honest with yourself you would see it as such.

 

[Togo]

Israel has controls on building materials coming into the Gaza strip, specifically forbidding the construction of underground structures.

 

[Arctish]

Israeli policy is to avoid civilian casualties as much as is humanly possible, unlike Hamas who aim indiscriminately at civilian areas of Israel. When one considers the density of the population in the Gaza strip to the civilian casualties, it is among the lowest in the world. There would be even less if Hamas spent the billions given them in aid on civilian bomb shelters, or on bettering the lot of the Palestinians as this aid is meant to do. Blaming Israel for the lack of such shelters as if the Israelis deliberately go out of their way to cause as many casualties as possible is bullshit and if you're honest with yourself you would see it as such.

I haven't made the claim that Israelis deliberately go out of their way to cause as many casualties as possible. Implying that I have is bullshit and if you're honest with yourself you would see it as such.

I don't believe Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters, not because I think Israelis want to cause as many casualties as possible, but because I think the Israelis are against Hamas becoming more secure, better protected, and harder to take down than they already are. I also don't think the Israelis will let Hamas to build sniper nests, tank traps, and trebuchets, for the exact same reason.

Do you think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters? You still haven't said.

 

[angelo]

Yes, Israel would not hamper the building of shelters in Gaza. Instead of building terror tunnels, what's to stop Hamas building civilian shelters instead?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My gawd, you make Hamas sound like kindergarten teachers. You do acknowledge that it's a terrorist organasation right?

Of course I acknowledge it. I acknowledged it right there in the part you quoted. Are you going to answer the question or are you just going to keep trying to change the subject?

Do you honestly think Israel will let Hamas build bomb shelters? Loren seems to think Israel would allow it because Israel knows it can destroy any bomb shelter Hamas is able to build (which makes building bomb shelters a waste of time and resources, btw). Do you agree with him, or do you have another view?

Bomb shelters would be useful for protecting civilians--but that's not what Hamas wants. The more dead civilians the better.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has controls on building materials coming into the Gaza strip, specifically forbidding the construction of underground structures.

No. They forbid the construction of military structures.

They used to permit the civilian use of concrete but it turns out that there was major diversion of building materials to Hamas (they were only checking the stated use, not that the materials were actually used for that purpose--thus people's houses go unrepaired but Hamas gets tunnel-building materials), I rather suspect their policies will be changed but I haven't heard anything about this yet.

 

[Jarhyn]

Israel has controls on building materials coming into the Gaza strip, specifically forbidding the construction of underground structures.

No. They forbid the construction of military structures.

They used to permit the civilian use of concrete but it turns out that there was major diversion of building materials to Hamas (they were only checking the stated use, not that the materials were actually used for that purpose--thus people's houses go unrepaired but Hamas gets tunnel-building materials), I rather suspect their policies will be changed but I haven't heard anything about this yet.

To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.

Herman Melville

Hamas will be justified in injuring, destroying, rocketing, and maiming Israel until Israel buggers off and gives them sovereignty, for the same reason that when a poor person gets bullied by a cop, the right resolution is to fight with any means until the cop backs off or someone is dead, and if it's the poor person, to still fight in their stead.

Israel needs to let go. They need to stop and back off and accept that they have no right to do as they do. We can deal with palestine once that's taken care of, if they still need dealing with.