exceptionally unsettling fundy experience

[James Brown]

There may indeed be an objective source of morality.

Unfortunately, we poor subjective humans have no way of knowing what it is. So we just have to figure it out on our own. We can use trial-and-error, reason and empathy, experimentation.

Or we can shut our eyes, declare that someone else knows what the objective source of morality is, and follow that person blindly. There's no evidence that someone else knows what it is. But blind allegiance is a lot easier.

 

[Learner]

I as a Christian claim that a moral authority exists.

What is that moral authority?
And what does it say?

That's the problem. Nobody has an answer to those two questions, especially not Christian people.

I'm a gay man. According to Moses, in Leviticus, God thinks I should be stoned to death.
Is that your moral authority?

As according to Moses..., some people say, that this would be especially to the Jews only. Jews and atheists have both argued, that Christianity, "a later invented" religion, doesn't have any connection with the OT. As irony would have it, Jesus went among the eunuchs, he also said, " Those without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus said things quite different, like "Judge Not".

I'm going to make a judgment. You seem to me, to be a decent fellow.

The context when judging as Jesus puts it: before you judge someone of doing something wrong, make sure you're not doing it yourself. Take the beam out of your eye before you take the speck out of the other person's eye. Besides, as you know, we judge people everyday, like for example when we're often cautious of shifty people, as seen in our eyes, holding on to our bags or wallets tightly, whilst walking down the street.

I can't really tell what Christian people mean by "moral authority". It seems to mean "Whatever I think God meant by my interpretation of an English translation of a Greek translation of an oral tradition from some ancient Israelites".

Maybe you mean something different. Feel free to explain it.

Tom

As Tigers posts. I do not claim to follow it (as Jesus is, and does) absolutely.

Christians will say the absolute moral authority is Jesus, or God, and some will say from the angle that it's via the Bible.

 

[Learner]

There may indeed be an objective source of morality.

Unfortunately, we poor subjective humans have no way of knowing what it is. So we just have to figure it out on our own. We can use trial-and-error, reason and empathy, experimentation.

Or we can shut our eyes, declare that someone else knows what the objective source of morality is, and follow that person blindly. There's no evidence that someone else knows what it is. But blind allegiance is a lot easier.

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority. I have had it said to me, atheists know the bible better than Christians do.

 

[Wiploc]

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority.

I'm not with you.

Suppose you start claiming that you worship and follow Lex Luthor.

And suppose further that I point out that Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil chaotic, and that you are far too kind, generous, polite, well meaning, and law abiding to pass for evil chaotic.

Would you say that I therefore must incline that Lex Luthor is a high authority?

 

[Learner]

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority.

I'm not with you.

Suppose you start claiming that you worship and follow Lex Luthor.

And suppose further that I point out that Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil chaotic, and that you are far too kind, generous, polite, well meaning, and law abiding to pass for evil chaotic.

Would you say that I therefore must incline that Lex Luthor is a high authority?

Ok, well I'm not sure if your analogy is going to work in the same way, depending on what you think the biblical concept may portray.

In your scenario, do the followers understand the concept of the 'almighty' i.e., Lex Luthers raising the dead and judges people on judgement day by their evils? And only through Lex Luther will people get to hells everlasting partying night clubs?

 

[Wiploc]

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority.

I'm not with you.

Suppose you start claiming that you worship and follow Lex Luthor.

And suppose further that I point out that Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil chaotic, and that you are far too kind, generous, polite, well meaning, and law abiding to pass for evil chaotic.

Would you say that I therefore must incline that Lex Luthor is a high authority?

Ok, well I'm not sure if your analogy is going to work in the same way, depending on what you think the biblical concept may portray.

In your scenario, do the followers understand the concept of the 'almighty' i.e., Lex Luthers raising the dead and judges people on judgement day by their evils? And only through Lex Luther will people get to hells everlasting partying night clubs?

I'm still not with you.

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

 

[Learner]

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority.

I'm not with you.

Suppose you start claiming that you worship and follow Lex Luthor.

And suppose further that I point out that Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil chaotic, and that you are far too kind, generous, polite, well meaning, and law abiding to pass for evil chaotic.

Would you say that I therefore must incline that Lex Luthor is a high authority?

Ok, well I'm not sure if your analogy is going to work in the same way, depending on what you think the biblical concept may portray.

In your scenario, do the followers understand the concept of the 'almighty' i.e., Lex Luthers raising the dead and judges people on judgement day by their evils? And only through Lex Luther will people get to hells everlasting partying night clubs?

I'm still not with you.

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

I'm not talking just "anybody", only those who 'understand' the context, and who it is, that's written about that gives the moral laws, the commandments etc. & etc., as Christians understand it - not that I meant that these atheists, should also need to believe in it too, who rather, would use this context understanding to point out, Christians are not moral by their own moral standard belief, and nor would this be to me an affirmation to the belief.

 

[Wiploc]

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority.

I'm not with you.

Suppose you start claiming that you worship and follow Lex Luthor.

And suppose further that I point out that Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil chaotic, and that you are far too kind, generous, polite, well meaning, and law abiding to pass for evil chaotic.

Would you say that I therefore must incline that Lex Luthor is a high authority?

Ok, well I'm not sure if your analogy is going to work in the same way, depending on what you think the biblical concept may portray.

In your scenario, do the followers understand the concept of the 'almighty' i.e., Lex Luthers raising the dead and judges people on judgement day by their evils? And only through Lex Luther will people get to hells everlasting partying night clubs?

I'm still not with you.

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

I'm not talking just "anybody", only those who 'understand' the context, and who it is, that's written about that gives the moral laws, the commandments etc. & etc., as Christians understand it - not that I meant that these atheists, should also need to believe in it too, who rather, would use this context understanding to point out, Christians are not moral by their own moral standard belief, and nor would this be to me an affirmation to the belief.

But then why did you say that, "These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority."

Isn't that initial claim the opposite of current position?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

We can notice those who claim loudly to be moral but who are not. We call them hyocrites. We despise those whose acts do not match their self proclaimed moral standards. Especially those who claim autnhority. Politicians, religious leaders etc.

Or to be blunt, actions matter more than words.

And now, God. Christians and others tell us God is good, merciful, just, fair, and compassionate. And of course is all powerful, omnipotent. And the source of all objective morality.

But we do not live in a Universe where we see the results of such a being.

And is actions that count. That is all that counts.

 

[Learner]

You, i.e., atheists worldwide have been telling us and arguing for many decades Christians don't follow or behave like Jesus. These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority.

I'm not with you.

Suppose you start claiming that you worship and follow Lex Luthor.

And suppose further that I point out that Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil chaotic, and that you are far too kind, generous, polite, well meaning, and law abiding to pass for evil chaotic.

Would you say that I therefore must incline that Lex Luthor is a high authority?

Ok, well I'm not sure if your analogy is going to work in the same way, depending on what you think the biblical concept may portray.

In your scenario, do the followers understand the concept of the 'almighty' i.e., Lex Luthers raising the dead and judges people on judgement day by their evils? And only through Lex Luther will people get to hells everlasting partying night clubs?

I'm still not with you.

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

I'm not talking just "anybody", only those who 'understand' the context, and who it is, that's written about that gives the moral laws, the commandments etc. & etc., as Christians understand it - not that I meant that these atheists, should also need to believe in it too, who rather, would use this context understanding to point out, Christians are not moral by their own moral standard belief, and nor would this be to me an affirmation to the belief.

But then why did you say that, "These atheist therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a high authority."

Isn't that initial claim the opposite of current position?

If you would have added in conjunction to my post (that you initially responded to) the post I was responding to, quoted below then you'll understand what I meant when I said " ....these atheists therefore must have some incline that Jesus is a (the) high authority."
Which was my response to the narrative, ".. no way of knowing [...], and so on.

There may indeed be an objective source of morality.

Unfortunately, we poor subjective humans have no way of knowing what it is. So we just have to figure it out on our own. We can use trial-and-error, reason and empathy, experimentation.

Or we can shut our eyes, declare that someone else knows what the objective source of morality is, and follow that person blindly. There's no evidence that someone else knows what it is. But blind allegiance is a lot easier.

Our friend Charlie sort of gets the biblical drift, without needing to believe it..

 

[steve_bank]

Lerner,

Does it bother or concern you that we do not believe in Jesus?

 

[Tigers!]

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

No. If you say that Christians are not acting like Christ then you are claiming some sort of authority to do so.
(And yes historically far too many 'Christians' have not acted Christ-like. But they do so in opposition to Christ not in line with him)

 

[Tigers!]

We can notice those who claim loudly to be moral but who are not. We call them hyocrites. We despise those whose acts do not match their self proclaimed moral standards. Especially those who claim autnhority. Politicians, religious leaders etc.

Or to be blunt, actions matter more than words.

And now, God. Christians and others tell us God is good, merciful, just, fair, and compassionate. And of course is all powerful, omnipotent. And the source of all objective morality.

But we do not live in a Universe where we see the results of such a being.

And is actions that count. That is all that counts.

It has always been a great source of wonder to me that persons like you and I have access to the same data/information via our senses and yet we can to with diametrically opposed conclusions.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Where was this morally perfect and all powerful God during the holocaust?

 

[Wiploc]

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

No. If you say that Christians are not acting like Christ then you are claiming some sort of authority to do so.
(And yes historically far too many 'Christians' have not acted Christ-like. But they do so in opposition to Christ not in line with him)

What authority are you claiming?

 

[Tigers!]

Are you claiming that anybody who points out that Christians don't act like Christ must thereby be affirming the beliefs of your weird subset of Christianity?

No. If you say that Christians are not acting like Christ then you are claiming some sort of authority to do so.
(And yes historically far too many 'Christians' have not acted Christ-like. But they do so in opposition to Christ not in line with him)

What authority are you claiming?

I am making no claims of authority. Those who say that Christians are not Christ-like make such a claim based upon some authority or other.

 

[Tigers!]

Where was this morally perfect and all powerful God during the holocaust?

He was present there.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm still not with you.

I think you are missing Learner's point, which I take to be about stories. Arguments about moral authorities come down to stories, impersonal accounts, hearsay. The winner is the story offering the biggest payback for the smallest ante. Christianity wins hands down. I don't think anyone would argue with that, at least if we believe in afterlives and how that moral authority forgives everything.

 

[Politesse]

Lerner,

Does it bother or concern you that we do not believe in Jesus?

Considering the forum TOU very specifically forbids "proselytization/preaching religious views", asking a question like this seems like a rather crass attempt to goad someone into a rule violation. If he is in fact concerned about your soul, what's he supposed to do, lie or get booted?

 

[steve_bank]

Lerner,

Does it bother or concern you that we do not believe in Jesus?

Considering the forum TOU very specifically forbids "proselytization/preaching religious views", asking a question like this seems like a rather crass attempt to goad someone into a rule violation. If he is in fact concerned about your soul, what's he supposed to do, lie or get booted?

Gosh, I bet you put a lot of thought into that.

Any respose would hardly be proselytizing.

I assume proselytizing applies to atheist and theist alike. Us atheists routinely express our displeasure with theists.

I would like to know how he feels about us not believing as he does.