Explaining Privilege: It may not be what you think.

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Clint is the hero in Pale Rider and prevents a rape.

No, it is High Plains Drifter where is a total antihero in all ways:

Yes, that's the one.

Right. Pale Rider is the one where he pretends to be a priest, has sex with an almost married woman whose 14 year old daughter falls in love with him. But hey, at least he rejects the 14 year old's sexual advances. "A man's got to know his limitations"

aa

 

[steve_bank]

I just happed to catch a scene of a modern movie The girl With The Dragon Tattoo. A rape scene as entertainment.

Are you guys on a first name basis with Mr Eastwood? I am impressed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, it is not. Getting a standardized test (SAT or ACT) was not a long-standing issue before the pandemic. Prospective students could not get access to them because of shutdowns - they were not given. That is a fact.

The issue of whether the SAT/ACT is predictive has been an issue since before the pandemic.

And you are still refusing to address the point that your own article says GPA is a good predictor when you consider the school it came from. You conveniently keep omitting this part of it.

No, the article does says the GPA is a good predictor even after controlling for the school.

You're so obsessed about avoiding this that you got it backwards.

You have yet to post a response that indicates you have a clue about the topic of this discussion. Schools are moving away from using the SAT or ACT because there is growing research that HS GPA is a better predictor. It has nothing to do with hiding discrimination.

Why are you bending over backwards to give repeat offenders the benefit of the doubt??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem isn't the word privilege. The problem is people feeling hurt because they think they are being accused of practicing or benefitting from unfairness. No matter what word is used, that feeling won't go away.

Couldn't agree more. Once is the maximum number of times needed to explain this position and what privilege refers to in this context. If the response to that explanation is "no, you're not saying 'X', you're actually saying 'Y'" then 0 is the number of times you need to repeat yourself. Because the problem isn't with the message or how it's conveyed. The problem is that this particular message is something that your audience cannot and will not hear.

It's not like it's being referred to as 'Adolf Hitler Syndrome' or something.

aa

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

 

[laughing dog]

The issue of whether the SAT/ACT is predictive has been an issue since before the pandemic.

No one is talking about whether it is predictive. The discussion is that growing research indicates that HS GPA is a better predictor than SAT/ACT.

You're so obsessed about avoiding this that you got it backwards.

What is "this" you are babbling about?

Why are you bending over backwards to give repeat offenders the benefit of the doubt??

I wouldn't say I am bending over backwards to give you the benefit of doubt with your inane arguments and false accusations.

 

[Worldtraveller]

The problem isn't the word privilege. The problem is people feeling hurt because they think they are being accused of practicing or benefitting from unfairness. No matter what word is used, that feeling won't go away.

Couldn't agree more. Once is the maximum number of times needed to explain this position and what privilege refers to in this context. If the response to that explanation is "no, you're not saying 'X', you're actually saying 'Y'" then 0 is the number of times you need to repeat yourself. Because the problem isn't with the message or how it's conveyed. The problem is that this particular message is something that your audience cannot and will not hear.

It's not like it's being referred to as 'Adolf Hitler Syndrome' or something.

aa

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

Can you point out where anyone said that? Because you're more or less making AA's point here.

 

[Trausti]

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

Can you point out where anyone said that? Because you're more or less making AA's point here.

You’re not at fault; but you should held to the consequences as if you were.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

Can you point out where anyone said that? Because you're more or less making AA's point here.

You’re not at fault; but you should held to the consequences as if you were.

No, see you and LP are STILL suggesting that the message is somehow "let's bring white people into squalor!" This issue is about identification and recognition (and not contrition and consequence) of a condition that exists among NOT white people. So suspend your self absorbed delusions and actually hear the message. It really shouldn't be the burden of the communicator to pro-actively eliminate all of the things that aren't being said.

Unless the only 'consequence' you don't want to have happen is that minorities start enjoying the same justice and equality that whites currently do, in which case you are at least being honest about intentionally distorting and obfuscating the issue.

aa

 

[laughing dog]

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

Can you point out where anyone said that? Because you're more or less making AA's point here.

You’re not at fault; but you should held to the consequences as if you were.

What "consequences" do you feel are people to held to?

Really, the OP indicates "You are not to blame for the privileges you have or have not. These things were set up before you were born. " A normal reading of "not to blame" suggests that you are not to held to the consequences of "privilege". Unless, of course, you think that when everyone has the same "privilege", that it is unfair that the previous beneficiaries lose any advantages of said privilege.

 

[Politesse]

Some people have trouble understanding the difference between guilt and responsibility. We are not guilty of the sins of our ancestors. But we do inherit a responsiblity to right those wrongs and make a better world together. It's part of being an adult, realizing that the world is not fair, that the deck is always rigged in somebody's favor. If you learn that someone has given you an unfair advantage without your consent, the responsible thing to do is not to demand that the concessions continue and call that "fairness", just because it hurts your feelings to admit that you won prizes you never earned. The mentality of the modern white supremacist is like the person who comes across a malfunctioning ATM dealing out double bills, and instead of reporting it, thinks they are justified in taking advantage of the windfall because anyone else could theoretically have also discovered and profited from the same malfunction. And getting outraged instead of chagrined when the CCTV catches them at it. Just because you didn't create a situation, you aren't free of criticism concerning your response to that situation.

 

[Emily Lake]

Some people have trouble understanding the difference between guilt and responsibility. We are not guilty of the sins of our ancestors. But we do inherit a responsiblity to right those wrongs and make a better world together. It's part of being an adult, realizing that the world is not fair, that the deck is always rigged in somebody's favor. If you learn that someone has given you an unfair advantage without your consent, the responsible thing to do is not to demand that the concessions continue and call that "fairness", just because it hurts your feelings to admit that you won prizes you never earned. The mentality of the modern white supremacist is like the person who comes across a malfunctioning ATM dealing out double bills, and instead of reporting it, thinks they are justified in taking advantage of the windfall because anyone else could theoretically have also discovered and profited from the same malfunction. And getting outraged instead of chagrined when the CCTV catches them at it. Just because you didn't create a situation, you aren't free of criticism concerning your response to that situation.

The inability of many people to recognize the distinction between guilt and responsibility (let alone accountability) is no small thing. I've talked myself blue a few times trying to get that point across.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

Can you point out where anyone said that? Because you're more or less making AA's point here.

You’re not at fault; but you should held to the consequences as if you were.

Yeah, that's a better way of expressing it

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

You don't get to punish the descendants of wrongdoers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You’re not at fault; but you should held to the consequences as if you were.

No, see you and LP are STILL suggesting that the message is somehow "let's bring white people into squalor!" This issue is about identification and recognition (and not contrition and consequence) of a condition that exists among NOT white people. So suspend your self absorbed delusions and actually hear the message. It really shouldn't be the burden of the communicator to pro-actively eliminate all of the things that aren't being said.

Unless the only 'consequence' you don't want to have happen is that minorities start enjoying the same justice and equality that whites currently do, in which case you are at least being honest about intentionally distorting and obfuscating the issue.

aa

There are problems that need fixing. Fix them, quit obsessing about blame. The obsession with blame is because there isn't a good fix.

 

[Trausti]

Some people have trouble understanding the difference between guilt and responsibility. We are not guilty of the sins of our ancestors. But we do inherit a responsiblity to right those wrongs and make a better world together. It's part of being an adult, realizing that the world is not fair, that the deck is always rigged in somebody's favor. If you learn that someone has given you an unfair advantage without your consent, the responsible thing to do is not to demand that the concessions continue and call that "fairness", just because it hurts your feelings to admit that you won prizes you never earned. The mentality of the modern white supremacist is like the person who comes across a malfunctioning ATM dealing out double bills, and instead of reporting it, thinks they are justified in taking advantage of the windfall because anyone else could theoretically have also discovered and profited from the same malfunction. And getting outraged instead of chagrined when the CCTV catches them at it. Just because you didn't create a situation, you aren't free of criticism concerning your response to that situation.

The inability of many people to recognize the distinction between guilt and responsibility (let alone accountability) is no small thing. I've talked myself blue a few times trying to get that point across.

It’d get much more acceptance if it weren’t framed in racial terms. The 20th Century taught us not to judge/treat people based on their race. Let’s not forget that lesson.

 

[Politesse]

Some people have trouble understanding the difference between guilt and responsibility. We are not guilty of the sins of our ancestors. But we do inherit a responsiblity to right those wrongs and make a better world together. It's part of being an adult, realizing that the world is not fair, that the deck is always rigged in somebody's favor. If you learn that someone has given you an unfair advantage without your consent, the responsible thing to do is not to demand that the concessions continue and call that "fairness", just because it hurts your feelings to admit that you won prizes you never earned. The mentality of the modern white supremacist is like the person who comes across a malfunctioning ATM dealing out double bills, and instead of reporting it, thinks they are justified in taking advantage of the windfall because anyone else could theoretically have also discovered and profited from the same malfunction. And getting outraged instead of chagrined when the CCTV catches them at it. Just because you didn't create a situation, you aren't free of criticism concerning your response to that situation.

The inability of many people to recognize the distinction between guilt and responsibility (let alone accountability) is no small thing. I've talked myself blue a few times trying to get that point across.

It’d get much more acceptance if it weren’t framed in racial terms. The 20th Century taught us not to judge/treat people based on their race. Let’s not forget that lesson.

That lesson isn't something you "learn" just once, and suddenly everything is solved. You have to keep fighting, pressing, insisting that rights are actually applied. If it were true that simply passing a law immediately created equality, the passage of the 14th amendment in 1868 would have solved everything. Women would have had the vote, Blacks a right to compensated employment, Gays a right to marriage, Trans people a right to use the f*cking bathroom. But obviously, that isn't how the world works. You can't tell people it is a crime to identify with a social identifier like race or gender while socially, they are still discriminated against on the basis of those categories. It is painfully obvious that the 20th century did not, in fact, teach us all these admirable lessons.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And changing the word would make it more or less of a superstition?

I think that, just like 'defunding the police,' talking about white privilege is a lot harder to swallow for a lot of working class and poor white people than talking about systemic racism.

And it is for me, too. When I hear white privilege applied to me and most of the white people I know, all I can think is that this is not privilege--this is how ALL people should be treated. Privilege is something that can and maybe should be removed. I'm not interested in being harassed by the police or worrying about my voting rights or not getting a mortgage, etc. I'm interested in NOBODY being harassed by the police, NOBODY worrying about voting rights, EVERYBODY being able to walk around a store unbothered by security, being treated fairly in job interviews, loan applications, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's not privilege. That's JUSTICE.

So yeah, when terminology is being used to promote a cause that I agree with but the terms rankle me, then I think that changing the word will help. Not with everybody. Like the poor, we will always have racists, bigots and assholes with us.

so like I said, the word upsets you.
when you read the OP, did you feel upset with the word?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The problem isn't the word privilege. The problem is people feeling hurt because they think they are being accused of practicing or benefitting from unfairness. No matter what word is used, that feeling won't go away.

I've been told that I benefit when other men sexually harass women. Not told by a single nutter on Twitter mind, but by multiple (seemingly) ordinary people on Facebook.

The problem may not be the word 'privilege'. The problem is the bundle of falsehoods and stated obligations that purveyors of the concept expect from 'the privileged.'

What has the OP asked of the Privileged?

 

[Metaphor]

The problem isn't the word privilege. The problem is people feeling hurt because they think they are being accused of practicing or benefitting from unfairness. No matter what word is used, that feeling won't go away.

I've been told that I benefit when other men sexually harass women. Not told by a single nutter on Twitter mind, but by multiple (seemingly) ordinary people on Facebook.

The problem may not be the word 'privilege'. The problem is the bundle of falsehoods and stated obligations that purveyors of the concept expect from 'the privileged.'

What has the OP asked of the Privileged?

I made it quite explicit that my lived experience with the word "privilege" was from social media that was not the OP

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The problem isn't the word privilege. The problem is people feeling hurt because they think they are being accused of practicing or benefitting from unfairness. No matter what word is used, that feeling won't go away.

Couldn't agree more. Once is the maximum number of times needed to explain this position and what privilege refers to in this context. If the response to that explanation is "no, you're not saying 'X', you're actually saying 'Y'" then 0 is the number of times you need to repeat yourself. Because the problem isn't with the message or how it's conveyed. The problem is that this particular message is something that your audience cannot and will not hear.

It's not like it's being referred to as 'Adolf Hitler Syndrome' or something.

aa

The problem is that this is basically saying we are at fault for something we didn't do.

Where did I say in the OP anyone here was at fault for anything?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What has the OP asked of the Privileged?

I made it quite explicit that my lived experience with the word "privilege" was from social media that was not the OP

But this discussion isn't about your lived experience. And if your lived experience says that your don't have to ever entertain another point of view, it's going to be hard to discuss anything.