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Fake Gay Marriage Website and SCOTUS Ruling

One of the more aggravating aspects of modern American society is treating The Constitution like Holy Writ. People decide what they want to happen then find a verse(I mean clause) that supports their opinions and insist that's what The Constitution says. Like the Founding Fathers are a divine pantheon.

Or, if the opinions of some wealthy WASP males doesn't get them what they want, The Constitution becomes a Living Document in need of reinterpretation to suit modern circumstances and moral beliefs.

Tom


Thanks for sharing your emotions. Now what does the constitution actually say about religion?

K thx bye.

Pro tip: The United States Constitution is the supreme law of the United States of America.
 
If the Muslim woman does male body waxing, then yes.
In my world, the Jewish jeweler would have to make it. They could do a lousy job and/or charge an exorbitant price up front, but yes.
[devil's advocate] so you're saying it's okay for the muslim woman to discriminate on the basis of sex?
 
My personal belief is that, as society progresses, we will have less need and hopefully no need to say that it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of sex/gender/race/ethnicity/gender/gender identity/sexual preferences/religion/whatever else I forgot to mention.

This!^^^^

I believe that USA society has progressed so far from the ugly days of bigotry(~1960s) that the new problem is the culture of victimhood and entitlement.

Everyone thinks that they are a victim of modern society, from wealthy black college students to straight WASP males, and therefore entitled to special treatment.
It's dumbassery writ large in 2023 U.S., but it's popular with huge numbers of people.
Tom
When the heck did the right to be served become 'entitlement'? All people being served isn't special treatment for anyone.
It becomes entitlement when it crosses the line from off-the-shelf to bespoke. Because at that point, it crosses from protecting one person from discrimination to giving that person the privilege of compelling others.
 
But make this simpler: Should a Pakistani Muslim American be forced to create a custom wedding ring set inscribed with a Hebrew blessing for an Israeli American Jewish couple?

Two protected classes here.
If the jeweler makes wedding rings with Hebrew blessings for others, then yes. If they don’t do Hebrew blessings on any wedding rings, then no.
*Shrug* This baker doesn't make same-sex wedding cakes for anyone.
 
But make this simpler: Should a Pakistani Muslim American be forced to create a custom wedding ring set inscribed with a Hebrew blessing for an Israeli American Jewish couple?

Two protected classes here.
If the jeweler makes wedding rings with Hebrew blessings for others, then yes. If they don’t do Hebrew blessings on any wedding rings, then no.
How is that different than creating a website for a gay couple? It’s just words, after all. It’s pretty easy to switch from Arabic font to Hebrew font.
The difference is the web designer will make a website for a heterosexual couple but not for the gay couple.
And the ring inscriber will do a blessing for a muslim couple but not for a jewish couple.
 
Really? What protected group are white heterosexual cis men in? I mean, they still pretty much rule the world but which protected legal class?

If we are ALL in a protected class, then what is the point of protected classes.

I'm sorry: I'm really tired and maybe I'm missing stuff....
If race is protected then white is protected.
If sexuality is protected then heterosexual is protected.
If gender is protected then cis is protected.

There are some who do not believe that it's possible to discriminate against the majority but obviously they never heard of apartheid South Africa.
What happens when there are conflicts though?

It's easy to say that if sexuality is protected, then heterosexuality is also protected. It's more challenging to realize that when sexuality is protected, religion is not protected.

It's easy to say that if gender is protected, then "cis" is also protected. It's more challenging to acknowledge that when gender is protected, sex is not protected.

It's especially challenging when you have to acknowledge that those conflicts exist, and also acknowledge that there may not be a single one-size-suits-all answer to it, and that there may need to be some case by case considerations put into place. For example, when the service or good being provided is off-the-shelf, then sexuality trumps religion; when the service or good is bespoke and is not deemed a necessary good, then religion trumps sexuality.
 
Medical situations. Do you think nurses and doctors can just willy nilly not treat gay people and keep their jobs?
How do you figure that a nurse or doctor treating a patient qualifies as them expressing a view in support of homosexuality?
If one thinks homosexuality is a mortal sin, then helping a homosexual stay healthy is promoting sin.
There's a nuance in here that I'm having trouble expressing. It seems clear to me that treating an illness has no connection to one's views on sexual orientation... but that creating a product for a wedding does have a connection to one's views on sexual orientation.
Why? Both situations involve providing a service or a good.

As to the rest of your response, disallowing people to use religion to discriminate against others in commerce is not discrimination against religion or the religious. No one is forced to believe anything against their will.
Not all services or goods are available to all people, and I don't think they need to be. Some goods are, for lack of a better term, necessary goods and services. Failure to have access to them places an undue burden on people, materially affects their overall quality of life, and in many cases increases their direct risk of death or injury. Things like access to basic food materials, shelter, necessary medical care. On the other hand... yachts are also a good, and personal masseuses are a service. But they're not necessary, and failure to have access to them isn't going to actually injure anyone.
That sounds quite like separate but equal to me.
 
It becomes entitlement when it crosses the line from off-the-shelf to bespoke. Because at that point, it crosses from protecting one person from discrimination to giving that person the privilege of compelling others.

That's one aspect.
Another is essential services.
If Joe EMT shows up at a bad car wreck he's got to do his job. It doesn't matter if the victim is a sweet old lady in a granny dress or a fat trans woman in a bikini. Joe has got to do whatever necessary.

Wedding websites are in a different category.
Tom
 
You can't seriously imagine that's a sound counterargument. A recent movement to become more accepting among the more liberal wing of the religion, which only happened by plagiarism of non-Christian moral progress, hardly wipes away either two thousand years of general practice or the existence of a conservative wing. So when a Christian claims she got her views against same-sex marriage from her religion's traditional teachings we have every reason to believe her. But if one were to claim she got views against black marriage from her religion's traditional teachings we'd have no reason to believe her -- she'd obviously be lying and just trying to game the system.

So 250ish years of "we the people" using religion to justify slavery isn't considered traditional. Ok (y)
[pedantic quibble]
That's 89 years being used to justify slavery in the US. And 188 years justifying disparate treatment of black people in the US (including the 89 years of slavery
[/pedantic quibble]

This has no relationship to any argument in this thread, I'm just feeling particularly nitpicky at the moment.
 
Medical treatment is no less a creative activity than web design, so your response is off point.
If medicine involves even half the creativity needed for web design, we're all fucked.
When a doctor is presented with a difficult case, creativity is necessary.

Web designers use templates and their training to solve the issues that come to their attention. Not every issue requires creativity.

The same is true for bakers and wedding cakes.
Bakers use recipes and their training to make the cake. Not every cake requires creativity.

Doctors use their training and skills when presented with symptoms. Most instances are routine, but that doesn’t mean their aren’t situations that require creative solutions.
Emily Lake said:
Pretty sure my neurologist didn't get all creative and designy about diagnosing and treating my epilepsy. Pretty sure I'd have a very good law suit lined up if she had.
Not if it worked.
 
Really? What protected group are white heterosexual cis men in? I mean, they still pretty much rule the world but which protected legal class?

If we are ALL in a protected class, then what is the point of protected classes.

I'm sorry: I'm really tired and maybe I'm missing stuff....
If race is protected then white is protected.
If sexuality is protected then heterosexual is protected.
If gender is protected then cis is protected.

There are some who do not believe that it's possible to discriminate against the majority but obviously they never heard of apartheid South Africa.
What happens when there are conflicts though?

It's easy to say that if sexuality is protected, then heterosexuality is also protected. It's more challenging to realize that when sexuality is protected, religion is not protected.

It's easy to say that if gender is protected, then "cis" is also protected. It's more challenging to acknowledge that when gender is protected, sex is not protected.

It's especially challenging when you have to acknowledge that those conflicts exist, and also acknowledge that there may not be a single one-size-suits-all answer to it, and that there may need to be some case by case considerations put into place. For example, when the service or good being provided is off-the-shelf, then sexuality trumps religion; when the service or good is bespoke and is not deemed a necessary good, then religion trumps sexuality.
Religion IS protected.
 
It does not forbid religion nor does it endorse religion.

Religion as a protected class is an endorsement of religion.
Read the constitution. Government is supposed to be neutral with regards to people’s religion—Government May neither promote nor inhibit any person’s free expression of their religious beliefs including no religion.
 
I see this case as a conflict between two rights guaranteed under the US Constitution: First Amendment rights guaranteeing freedom of speech and religion and the 14th Amendment along with Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Let's ponder this for a moment. The First Amendment begins unequivocally with:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The term "no" leaves no room for ambiguity. Thus, any law respecting an establishment of religion would violate the Constitution. This implies that the classification of religion as a protected class could be deemed unconstitutional.

:devil-flames:
:cautious: The first amendment prohibits the government from establishing a state religion. That's what that first clause means. And that isn't something being discussed here at all.

But that same sentence goes on to say "or prohibiting its free exercise".
 
I see this case as a conflict between two rights guaranteed under the US Constitution: First Amendment rights guaranteeing freedom of speech and religion and the 14th Amendment along with Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Let's ponder this for a moment. The First Amendment begins unequivocally with:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The term "no" leaves no room for ambiguity. Thus, any law respecting an establishment of religion would violate the Constitution. This implies that the classification of religion as a protected class could be deemed unconstitutional.

:devil-flames:
Not really. It draws a bright line between the state and religion. It does not forbid religion nor does it endorse religion. Founding fathers were of diverse religious beliefs, including none. Jefferson famously clipped out parts of the bible he disagreed with--much like the writers of whatever edition of the bible we're talking about since the Gutenberg press was invented.



The First Amendment to the United States Constitution unambiguously declares, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." This clause underscores the paramount importance of safeguarding religion as a separate class, and it explicitly prohibits Congress from legislating laws that either advocate for or discriminate against any particular religion. This directive serves to preserve religious neutrality on the part of the government, as outlined in our Constitution.

Furthermore, the First Amendment explicitly affirms that "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This provision illustrates that Congress's role extends beyond refraining from legislating in favor or against specific religions. It is also incumbent on Congress to ensure that no legislative measures hinder the right of individuals to freely practice their religion of choice.

In essence, by refraining from legislating in a way that directly impacts religious establishments, either positively or negatively, Congress adheres to the United States Constitution's stipulations. However, if a law exists that seems to promote religion, it would, indeed, appear to contravene the Constitution's explicit directive. Right now we have a law on the books that supports religion which is unconstitutional. No matter how you want to cut it.

Essentially, the government's role should be to exclude religion as a factor in disputes among citizens, consistent with the United States Constitution's stipulation. This mandate ensures the upholding of religious neutrality and the prevention of preferential treatment or discrimination based on religious beliefs. In the case of our imaginative Web designer the government should not recognize religion but only the service denial itself.

If you are a Christian who holds a personal belief opposing same-sex marriage, it's essential to recognize that if you choose to operate within the public sphere, you do so with the knowledge that same-sex marriage is legal. Should your convictions be such that any association with same-sex marriage feels injurious to your faith, you may want to reconsider participating in areas of public service that engage with it. Striking a balance between personal beliefs and public service demands can be challenging, and one must be prepared to navigate this duality without infringing upon the rights of others. It's a matter of understanding that you cannot simultaneously uphold personal beliefs at the expense of public law and expect protections from a Constitution that does not grant you any.
On the other hand... if we had a law on the books that allowed religion to be overridden, then that would also be unconstitutional, as it would be prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That's what makes this discussion interesting and prickly - there isn't a single right answer. The best I think we can get is a reasonable balance.
 
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