Fallout - The Trump Shutdown

[Derec]

False. Several Republicans voted against the cloture motion, too

I said predominately. A few Republicans voted against cloture (and thus for shutdown) but almost all Democrats voted against cloture. Compare "a few" with "almost all".
Republicans voting against: Jeff Flake, Lindsey Graham, Mike Lee, Mitch McConnell (who did it for procedural reasons) and Rand Paul (Jonah Ryan of the Senate).
Democrats voting against: ALL OF THEM EXCEPT Joe Donnelly, Heidi Heitkamp, Doug Jones, Joe Manchin and Claire McCaskill.

Oh, you mean like the bipartisan proposals that Trump agreed to twice, and reneged on twice, and that McConnell won't even allow to the floor for debate much less a vote?

Something like that, but I do not think basic functioning of the government should be held hostage for legislative pushes. Not when Republicans do it to cut spending, not when Democrats do it to force DACA.

Schumer did NOT do "it for the illegals" Your attempts to conflate overall immigration with DACA is just more racist partisan bullshit.

Who did he do it for then? And while not all illegals are dreamers, all dreamers are illegals.

 

[RavenSky]

There is no such thing as an "illegal"

 

[Derec]

There is no such thing as an "illegal"

 

[Harry Bosch]

There is no such thing as an "illegal"

Yea, it's not really all that complicated. The word is undocumented or dreamers. It's interesting that you purposely pick a demeaning term to describe dreamers. Why? Does it make it easier to attack them? I'm just trying to understand...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There is no such thing as an "illegal"

Yea, it's not really all that complicated. The word is undocumented or dreamers. It's interesting that you purposely pick a demeaning term to describe dreamers. Why? Does it make it easier to attack them? I'm just trying to understand...

They're like Jews. They're evil and must be removed. Conservative Immigration Reform is part of the Final Solution.

 

[Elixir]

You let those illegals stay here and the next thing you know, the libtards are going to ask us to stop deporting darkies back to their shitholes. Can't have that, now, can we? How are we supposed to Make America White Again when you pollute our bloodlines with chimp genes?

 

[Malintent]

I don't know what Derek's problem is. Trump promised to "shake up the govmunt".. Bannons corner to "tare it all down".

This is what you voted for, Trump supporter... This is what was promised.... division and chaos... so stop blaming the side that does not want chaos and division for a wishy-washy, flippity ploppity president that is doing that on purpose, for this precise result.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't know what Derek's problem is. Trump promised to "shake up the govmunt".. Bannons corner to "tare it all down".

This is what you voted for, Trump supporter... This is what was promised.... division and chaos... so stop blaming the side that does not want chaos and division for a wishy-washy, flippity ploppity president that is doing that on purpose, for this precise result.

We shall all join pussy-grabbing man-boy and his brown shirts. We shall all be assimilated. Sieg Heil, Fuhrer!

Honestly, I don't mind being right. We don't need xenophobic final solutions.

 

[Derec]

They're like Jews. They're evil and must be removed. Conservative Immigration Reform is part of the Final Solution.

You let those illegals stay here and the next thing you know, the libtards are going to ask us to stop deporting darkies back to their shitholes. Can't have that, now, can we? How are we supposed to Make America White Again when you pollute our bloodlines with chimp genes?

We shall all join pussy-grabbing man-boy and his brown shirts. We shall all be assimilated. Sieg Heil, Fuhrer!
Honestly, I don't mind being right. We don't need xenophobic final solutions.

I guess everybody who disagrees with joedad and Elixir on unrestricted, illegal, mass migration must be a Nazi or at least a racist xenophobe.
Trump is a bad president, but a big reason he got elected is people being pissed off over such attitudes. Immigration cannot even be discussed in the US anymore without critics of illegal and mass migration being attacked unfairly.

 

[Derec]

This is what you voted for, Trump supporter...

I did not vote for him, and I am not a Trump supporter.
But neither am I a supporter of Democrats' infatuation with illegal immigrants. It is not just the so-called "dreamers". Democrats for example support sanctuary cities and states, where illegal aliens are shielded from ICE even when they commit crimes, including felonies. Jose Zarate, the illegal from Mexico who killed Kathryn Steinle in SF, was a felon (7 felony convictions!) who illegally entered US many times. And yet they let him go without allowing ICE to take custody for deportation. Trump, for all his faults (and they are legion), won because of bullshit like that from the Left and establishment Republicans dropping the ball on illegal immigration as well.

Again, I am not a Trump supporter, but at this point both sides of American politics are completely bonkers in their own way.

 

[Derec]

Yea, it's not really all that complicated. The word is undocumented or dreamers.

"Undocumented" is a politically correct term invented to replace the adjective "illegal", because supporters of illegal immigration do not like it. But that is the most accurate term. They are in the country illegally, hence they are illegal aliens. What's wrong with that?

"Dreamer" is also a politically correct term for a subset of illegal aliens who would have been covered by the "DREAM Act", which did not pass. The group largely overlaps, but is not congruent with, DACA recepients, but "dacans" doesn't sound as nice as "dreamers" I guess, so people still use "dreamers" for the dacans.

It's interesting that you purposely pick a demeaning term to describe dreamers. Why? Does it make it easier to attack them? I'm just trying to understand...

Unless Congress passes a law making them legal, they are still illegal immigrants. That's just the reality.
Even DACA is merely "Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals". It does not legalize them. Now, had the DREAM Act passed that would have been different. But still, it would have applied only to a subset of illegals.

Btw, the adjective "illegal" and even sometimes shorter use of it as a noun is also used for spies. But I don't see people getting their panties in a twist over that terminology. Take this BBC article as an example:
Jack Barsky: The KGB spy who lived the American dream

Barsky later found out that he was part of a "third wave" of Soviet illegals in the US - the first two waves having failed. And we now know that illegals continued to be infiltrated in the 1980s and beyond.
[..]
- The Soviet Union began using "illegal" agents, living in Europe under false identities, as early as 1919
- Unlike "resident agents", who are in the country legally as diplomats, they are not immune from prosecution if caught
- The first illegal was sent to the US in 1921, according to the Mitrokhin archive
- Famous illegals include Rudolf Abel, unmasked as a Soviet spy in the US in 1957, and Richard Sorge, who posed as a Nazi journalist in Japan during the war

I do not recall placards "no person is illegal" being hoisted to protest this usage.

 

[laughing dog]

Trump is a bad president, but a big reason he got elected is people being pissed off over such attitudes. Immigration cannot even be discussed in the US anymore without critics of illegal and mass migration being attacked unfairly.

And proponents of more open borders portrayed as supporting the Islamization of the western world.

While it is true that some proponents of more open borders do support the Islamization of the western world, but I would estimate that they are a small portion compared to the proportion of critics of more open borders who ae racists or bigots or xenophobic jackasses.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

America is for DACA.
America was not for DACA being used to close the government so DACA could be had.
America unaware that if this isn't done now, DACA is fucked, as McConnell has no need to move forward with it otherwise.

Schumer was likely thinking, "What the fuck is wrong with Americans?!"

Meanwhile.
Trump says fuck DACA.
Trump says Congress should fix DACA.
Trump says Democrats are evil and complicit in the murders of Americans for trying to fix what he fucking broke and told Congress to fix.

Schumer is likely thinking "I hate my life."

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Too lazy to start a poll, but wanted to ask -
What will the fallout of the Trump Shutdown look like?
Helps one party or another?
Helps or hurts Trump?

Bonus question: How long will De Gummint be shut down?

The short lived shut down is only a first step. The latest reopening is temporary and then we go through this again. So it is too early to be making predictions how this will play out. DACA must be renewed in March. All of this will play out over the next few months. Louisiana representitive Steve Scalise is now saying tha helping dreamers would anger the GOP base. Not doing so will anger the base of pro-Dreamer supporters. So just as the election season starts up, all of this will become real issues. DACA and a budget deal are now intertwined so it's going to be a bitter fight to settle this. We are only in Act One so far. And we have no idea how el Trumo will go as this all heats up. Trumpo is bellowing that the "Democrats have caved!" What they really did was left the GOP with an issue that gives them a choice. Cave in and anger their base, fail to help the Dreamers and piss everybody else off.

For us political junkie types, this is going to be an interesting year. But so far, the GOP is setting itself on fire.

 

[Elixir]

Louisiana representitive Steve Scalise is now saying tha helping dreamers would anger the GOP base. Not doing so will anger the base of pro-Dreamer supporters.

Approval for helping DACA recipients was polling at 87/13 last time I looked. I chide myself for the cruel thought "let Cheato screw the dreamers and reap the whirlwind".

But so far, the GOP is setting itself on fire.

I'll bring marshmallows!

 

[Elixir]

...they are a small portion compared to the proportion of critics of more open borders who ae racists or bigots or xenophobic jackasses.

Easy now, LD. Don't want to trigger the local racists/bigots/xenophobic jackasses!

 

[ronburgundy]

Too lazy to start a poll, but wanted to ask -
What will the fallout of the Trump Shutdown look like?
Helps one party or another?
Helps or hurts Trump?

Bonus question: How long will De Gummint be shut down?

The short lived shut down is only a first step. The latest reopening is temporary and then we go through this again. So it is too early to be making predictions how this will play out. DACA must be renewed in March. All of this will play out over the next few months. Louisiana representitive Steve Scalise is now saying tha helping dreamers would anger the GOP base. Not doing so will anger the base of pro-Dreamer supporters. So just as the election season starts up, all of this will become real issues. DACA and a budget deal are now intertwined so it's going to be a bitter fight to settle this. We are only in Act One so far. And we have no idea how el Trumo will go as this all heats up. Trumpo is bellowing that the "Democrats have caved!" What they really did was left the GOP with an issue that gives them a choice. Cave in and anger their base, fail to help the Dreamers and piss everybody else off.

For us political junkie types, this is going to be an interesting year. But so far, the GOP is setting itself on fire.

What politics have you been watching over the past 20 years? The Dems are guaranteed to be more harmed by this and snatch defeat from the Jaws of victory yet again. The people that will be really "pissed off" if the GOP ends DACA will be those who never vote GOP anyway. And when most of those people are pissed off, they do things like block traffic rather than something useful like vote.
Even when Trump called Mexican's rapists and threatened their friends and family, most of them who could vote did not bother.

In contrast, only a tiny % of the GOP base is strongly against DACA. Poll just before the election showed that 75% of Trump supporters actually supported DACA. So, they won't be upset if it stays, yet won't really be angry if it doesn't.

Among potential swing voters who actually bother to vote, few of them care enough about DACA for it to influence their vote. Many are Union or former Union supporters who have lost their only reason they voted Dem and are generally not supportive of liberal immigration policy. More of them will be upset with the Dems for a shutdown over DACA than happy with the Dems for taking a stand on it.
The only way that the Dems won't lose is if the GOP caves and renews DACA without a shutdown or other major immigration concessions.

In general, the future of the Dems is far more bleak than the GOP. The Dems used to win by depending on the Union vote. Unions are dying and soon to be extinct. Lack of the Union vote for Dems is the #1 reason Trump won. The Dem's reliable base is comprised mostly of aging traditional liberals who think (rightly) that supporting a moderate party capable of limiting the power of rightist extremists is a better strategy than trying to appeal to a more extreme left base that doesn't vote and doesn't have enough money or organization to support a viable campaign.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Are you forgetting that this is about both DACA and CHIP?

Well the Dems are surely making more noise about the illegals.

It's very offensive that you keep calling the dreamers illegals. They did not break the law coming to the US.

They entered the US illegally, hence the term. I find it a little harsh because it summons images of them committing crimes or being a crime, but calling them "undocumented" isn't better. They are not merely undocumented, as in they went through the immigration process legally and somebody lost the paperwork. They or their parents broke the law in them coming here and that shouldn't be brushed aside as nothing. Doing so only encourages others to break the same laws and you are apt to lose control of your borders. You need to enforce your laws and keep control over your immigration process.

That said, you should also make it much much easier to come legally, assist applicants to encourage them do come legally, and you should accept far more refugees.

 

[Playball40]

It's very offensive that you keep calling the dreamers illegals. They did not break the law coming to the US. Secondly, Obama passed the dreamer act giving them temporary permission to be here.

Isn't "dreamer" also offensive? They are only Americans in their dreams, and not in reality?

At the end of the day, both sides on this have a few valid points. You really should close up the "anchor baby" loophole and make people come legally. That people were brought here as children or even born here to people who entered illegally and then considering them merely "undocumented immigrants" IS a problem. There are not merely undocumented, having forgotten some paperwork. They have entered illegally. But then on the other hand calling them "illegals" is a bit harsh because it summons images of other crimes and paints them as being a crime rather than a person. It is perfectly reasonable when each side of this refuses to use the other's chosen term. You need something more neutral.

You should both shore up your immigration to make people comply with your rules, but also you should also make it much much easier to come legally, and you should accept far more refugees.

There is no such 'anchor baby' loophole.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There is no such 'anchor baby' loophole.

That's a fiction?

If you come to the USA illegally and have a baby on US soil, does that baby not get automatic US citizenship? I have heard they do. If so, why? What is the justification for that? Can that person then be used to help the parents and other relatives in to the country? That's what I understood the "anchor baby" thing to be.