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Father arrested and jailed for calling his biologically female daughter "she": this week in the strange death of Canada

I see. So apparently sincerely held belief over the propriety of some pronoun assigned to someone, and if done in the sincere belief that doing so will shield that person from harm, Is sufficient for it to be acceptable. And carry no punishment. So, if I were to stand outside Metaphor's house, specifically, with a God Hates Flags sign and a bullhorn to save his immortal soul from hell, yeah, I should do that. Makes perfect and total sense.

God doesn't hate flags, because she doesn't exist.

Standing outside my house with a sign saying it is not harassment. Stand there, darling, all the day long for all I care.

The bullhorn definitely would be harassment, as would any sound pollution deliberately produced to intrude on me solely to cause me discomfort. The State would have every right to take your bullhorn away if you can't be trusted not to cause sound pollution with it.
 
I see. So apparently sincerely held belief over the propriety of some pronoun assigned to someone, and if done in the sincere belief that doing so will shield that person from harm, Is sufficient for it to be acceptable. And carry no punishment. So, if I were to stand outside Metaphor's house, specifically, with a God Hates Flags sign and a bullhorn to save his immortal soul from hell, yeah, I should do that. Makes perfect and total sense.

God doesn't hate flags, because she doesn't exist.

Standing outside my house with a sign saying it is not harassment. Stand there, darling, all the day long for all I care.

The bullhorn definitely would be harassment, as would any sound pollution deliberately produced to intrude on me solely to cause me discomfort. The State would have every right to take your bullhorn away if you can't be trusted not to cause sound pollution with it.

And as a parent he has a constant metaphorical "bullhorn" his child cannot escape, thus it is harassment. The alternative solution would be for him to lose all parental rights and have a restraining order against him having any contact. He is targeting his child with distressing noise pollution.
 
Name one possible reason that you would continue to repeatedly call a person by label they have told you repeatedly and went to great lengths to get you to stop? It proves, at minimum at total disregard for the emotional harm you are causing.

One possible reason is that I believe what I'm saying to be true and that uttering truths is not offensive (or at any rate: not something the law ought ever forbid), and that being required to utter things I do not believe to be true is a proscription on my rights.

There are people who believe they are otherkin. It may upset them for me to refuse to call them anything other than 'human', but I will not harm them by indulging their fantasy.
 
I see. So apparently sincerely held belief over the propriety of some pronoun assigned to someone, and if done in the sincere belief that doing so will shield that person from harm, Is sufficient for it to be acceptable. And carry no punishment. So, if I were to stand outside Metaphor's house, specifically, with a God Hates Flags sign and a bullhorn to save his immortal soul from hell, yeah, I should do that. Makes perfect and total sense.

God doesn't hate flags, because she doesn't exist.

Standing outside my house with a sign saying it is not harassment. Stand there, darling, all the day long for all I care.

The bullhorn definitely would be harassment, as would any sound pollution deliberately produced to intrude on me solely to cause me discomfort. The State would have every right to take your bullhorn away if you can't be trusted not to cause sound pollution with it.

And as a parent he has a constant metaphorical "bullhorn" his child cannot escape, thus it is harassment. The alternative solution would be for him to lose all parental rights and have a restraining order against him having any contact. He is targeting his child with distressing noise pollution.

Jarhyn's original analogy was ridiculous and a fail; you don't need to revamp it. If a child of 14 no longer wants to have a parental relationship with one parent, then I think 14 is old enough for that child to so decide.

But a court should not jail people for using pronouns that conform to a person's sex.
 
Name one possible reason that you would continue to repeatedly call a person by label they have told you repeatedly and went to great lengths to get you to stop? It proves, at minimum at total disregard for the emotional harm you are causing.

One possible reason is that I believe what I'm saying to be true and that uttering truths is not offensive (or at any rate: not something the law ought ever forbid), and that being required to utter things I do not believe to be true is a proscription on my rights.

Everyone without mental disability knows that all word meaning is subjective and the concept of "truth" doesn't apply. So, only a person so mentally disabled that they couldn't help but cause emotional harm to to others would have that excuse. And that would make them unfit to be a parent.

Also, believing that you have the right to do something that causes emotional harm to a person is not any sort of motive to actual do those things. Hurting people just b/c you think you should be legally able to makes one a vile sociopath and an abusive parent when doing it to your kid.

No matter what one believes about the nature of transgenderism, the child was, by the father's own admission, mentally unstable and suicidal. He knew the child was distressed by him using those words that he had no actual need to use. That means he definitively did things that caused emotional harm without any regard for those impacts and for no reason other than either delusion that his defintions are "truth" or because he thought it was his right no matter the harm caused. In the context of a parent, that's abuse and should be a crime.
 
Of course it is. The father was arrested for using certain pronouns.



Pronouns are part of the English language and are very common; this is not like forbidding somebody from reciting 'Jabberwocky' every time he sees someone else. Nor do I agree with your threshold of 'harassment' and its actionability by the State.

You can hold and express any opinions you want.

You can't tyrannise people by constantly imposing your unwanted opinions on them in situations where they reasonably expect to be left alone.

"Tyrannise". Good god, do you know what tyranny is? Calling a female child 'she' is not tyranny, even if you do it repeatedly.

The defendant wasn't arrested for writing an opinion piece, or a blog post, or a letter to the local newspaper. He was arrested for ignoring a court order not to further annoy the plaintiff in a very specific way that he had no reasonable expectation would achieve anything other than the ongoing annoyance of the plaintiff.

It's not outrageous that the court should take this action. It is completely reasonable, normal, and in keeping with the defence of basic human rights, which do not include the right to bully or harrass people with impunity.

We disagree that it is normal and reasonable for the State to arrest and jail somebody for not using the requested pronouns of somebody in every day conversation.
No we don't.

This case is one of contempt of court. Nobody's been arrested or jailed for not using the requested pronouns of somebody in everyday conversation.

Someone has been arrested for harassing a minor in contravention of a court order.
So why do you exempt blog posts, opinion pieces, and letters to the editor? Is that a step too far for you?

For more information, please read my posts in this thread. They are quite clear and set out a position that is substantially different from your caricature of both my position and that of the judge.
 
Thinking of the case of a wife or husband of ten years who was in shape and is now pretty fat (like when insulin resistance is finally pushed past the limit as can happen).

If the other spouse is still svelte they do not have to say that their fat spouse is actually thin, but also do not have to point out he/she is fat all the time. But if asked by their spouse "am I fat" then "yes" is an acceptable answer - preferably followed with other positive praise. The question is how much positive ledger does the rest of the relationship have.

Is the child putting a lot of eggs in the basket gender identity out of a sense of insecurity?

If dad was like "I am skeptical that you are transgender and will not desist, but I accept YOU come what may" is this an acceptable communication to the child?
 
No, that is not a fact.
I see you having problems with the English language again It is a fact the child is insulted by the usage. I see yo

The matter of his belief is central to whether the behaviour in question is deliberately insulting.
No, it is not.

And I said I believed it (because I think that's what most parents want).
Ah, your belief is based solely on your beliefs. Hmmm.


You are begging the question. For that to be true, he would have to believe his behaviour is harmful.
Nope.



Yes. There was never any doubt he was choosing his words. What is contested is that he is choosing words in order to harass, bully, and harm.
He chooses his words that he knows is hurting his child.

You cannot know that he knows any such thing. To know something is to believe it to be true, and for it to be actually true.
I am not going to play your pedantic bullshit. Unlike you, I am not assuming this father is functional and clueless idiot.

Although I don't agree that he is deliberately insulting the child, it wouldn't matter if I did agree. The State should have no right to jail people for 'insults'.
The State is not jailing anyone for insults. This State is jailing someone for violating a court order.
 
Would it be OK for a father to repeatedly refer to his child as an idiot? As stupid? As a fool? What if that child were developmentally delayed, would that make it OK?

So.
You think referring to a child as "she", when biologically female, is equivalent to referring to the child as "an idiot"? As "stupid"? As "a fool"?

Is that really what you meant to say? Because you did say it. You did compare a parent using female pronouns to a parent using "idiot and stupid and a fool".

Seriously. I just read it.
Tom
 
The State is not jailing anyone for insults. This State is jailing someone for violating a court order.

A lot of people on this thread disagree with you. Lots of posters insist that the man was jailed for contempt of court.
Tom
 
Everyone without mental disability knows that all word meaning is subjective and the concept of "truth" doesn't apply.

If that were the case this entire exchange would be incoherent.

So, only a person so mentally disabled that they couldn't help but cause emotional harm to to others would have that excuse. And that would make them unfit to be a parent.

I do not believe that using pronouns that conform to a person's sex cause emotional harm, nor that causing "emotional harm" so defined makes a parent unfit to parent.

Also, believing that you have the right to do something that causes emotional harm to a person

Everyone believes they have the right to cause emotional harm to a person. For example, you have called the father in this case mentally unfit to be a parent, and you do not care that it would cause him emotional harm to be told so.

is not any sort of motive to actual do those things. Hurting people just b/c you think you should be legally able to makes one a vile sociopath and an abusive parent when doing it to your kid.

Except I never suggested you should hurt somebody 'just because you can'.

No matter what one believes about the nature of transgenderism, the child was, by the father's own admission, mentally unstable and suicidal. He knew the child was distressed by him using those words that he had no actual need to use.

On the contrary, he either had to use words he did not believe to be true, or so painfully concoct his language that he avoided pronoun use all together. And this is only in English. There are other languages that have harder and more explicit gendered aspects than English.

That means he definitively did things that caused emotional harm without any regard for those impacts and for no reason other than either delusion that his defintions are "truth" or because he thought it was his right no matter the harm caused.

You have no evidence that he thought it caused harm. Nor would uttering truths that cause 'emotional harm' make a parent unfit to be a parent.

EDIT: For fuck's sake, my parents uttered falsehoods that caused emotional harm. That didn't make them unfit parents.

In the context of a parent, that's abuse and should be a crime.

That you think the State should criminalise certain pronoun use does not surprise me though it saddens me. Funnily enough, Jordan Petersen predicted this very thing would happen in Canada, and the left mocked him for it.
 
I see you having problems with the English language again It is a fact the child is insulted by the usage. I see yo

You appear to have lost your train of thought mid-sentence. It is a fact that the court determined the child found the language insulting.

No, it is not.

Of course it is a matter of belief. If I serve a guest white bread toast for breakfast, knowing he is a coeliac and doing it just to goad him, I am insulting him. If I serve him white bread toast for breakfast having no idea he is a coeliac, I am not insulting him.

Intentions are everything.

Ah, your belief is based solely on your beliefs. Hmmm.

No, my belief is based on evidence that parents usually want the best for their children, though there are some parents that do not want it.


He chooses his words that he knows is hurting his child.

He chooses his words knowing other people have said he is hurting his child by using them.

You have no evidence he believes he is hurting the child. I believe he is neither hurting the child nor believes he is.

I am not going to play your pedantic bullshit. Unlike you, I am not assuming this father is functional and clueless idiot.

There is nothing pedantic about the philosophical definition of 'knowing'.

The State is not jailing anyone for insults. This State is jailing someone for violating a court order.

The court order was violated because the father used certain pronouns that people have deemed 'insulting'. That's jailing somebody for insults.
 
Thinking of the case of a wife or husband of ten years who was in shape and is now pretty fat (like when insulin resistance is finally pushed past the limit as can happen).

If the other spouse is still svelte they do not have to say that their fat spouse is actually thin, but also do not have to point out he/she is fat all the time. But if asked by their spouse "am I fat" then "yes" is an acceptable answer - preferably followed with other positive praise. The question is how much positive ledger does the rest of the relationship have.

Is the child putting a lot of eggs in the basket gender identity out of a sense of insecurity?

If dad was like "I am skeptical that you are transgender and will not desist, but I accept YOU come what may" is this an acceptable communication to the child?

No. Effectively, you are telling the child that you don't believe them when they say what/who they are....followed up by saying you accept them, come what may. Really Obviously, you don't accept them as transgender. You've just lied to them. Why should the child believe that you 'accept them' when clearly you don't? And what does 'come what may' mean in this context?

It is acceptable to say to the child that you're struggling with coming to this new understanding of who your child is, that is is your responsibility and to apologize if you sometimes make mistakes. And then you do your very, very best to not make hurtful mistakes. AND you get yourself to some good counseling so that you can fully understand and accept your child as who they truly are.

If this is difficult for you to understand, try this: Would it be acceptable for a parent to say to their child who has just come out as gay that the parent is skeptical that the child is actually gay but that you accept the child, 'come what may' whatever the hell that phrase is supposed to mean in this context.

Because, putting on my 14 year old hat, that just sounds like: I don't believe you but I love you even though you are confused and delusional and I'm sure that someday you will fully accept my version of who you are as your authentic self and then I will truly love you because you reflect my beliefs when you are who I say you are.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that shifting your perception of this person is going to take some time and adjustment on your part, that the hard work is all yours and not the child's and that you apologize in advance if you say or do anything hurtful, that you hope the child will point out to you if you do something that is hurtful and that you will do your best. And then YOU DO YOUR BEST, even if it feels wrong to you because your child's wellbeing is on the line.
 
Thinking of the case of a wife or husband of ten years who was in shape and is now pretty fat (like when insulin resistance is finally pushed past the limit as can happen).

If the other spouse is still svelte they do not have to say that their fat spouse is actually thin, but also do not have to point out he/she is fat all the time. But if asked by their spouse "am I fat" then "yes" is an acceptable answer - preferably followed with other positive praise. The question is how much positive ledger does the rest of the relationship have.

Is the child putting a lot of eggs in the basket gender identity out of a sense of insecurity?

If dad was like "I am skeptical that you are transgender and will not desist, but I accept YOU come what may" is this an acceptable communication to the child?

No. Effectively, you are telling the child that you don't believe them when they say what/who they are....followed up by saying you accept them, come what may. Really Obviously, you don't accept them as transgender. You've just lied to them. Why should the child believe that you 'accept them' when clearly you don't? And what does 'come what may' mean in this context?

It is acceptable to say to the child that you're struggling with coming to this new understanding of who your child is, that is is your responsibility and to apologize if you sometimes make mistakes. And then you do your very, very best to not make hurtful mistakes. AND you get yourself to some good counseling so that you can fully understand and accept your child as who they truly are.

If this is difficult for you to understand, try this: Would it be acceptable for a parent to say to their child who has just come out as gay that the parent is skeptical that the child is actually gay but that you accept the child, 'come what may' whatever the hell that phrase is supposed to mean in this context.

Because, putting on my 14 year old hat, that just sounds like: I don't believe you but I love you even though you are confused and delusional and I'm sure that someday you will fully accept my version of who you are as your authentic self and then I will truly love you because you reflect my beliefs when you are who I say you are.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that shifting your perception of this person is going to take some time and adjustment on your part, that the hard work is all yours and not the child's and that you apologize in advance if you say or do anything hurtful, that you hope the child will point out to you if you do something that is hurtful and that you will do your best. And then YOU DO YOUR BEST, even if it feels wrong to you because your child's wellbeing is on the line.

Who a person desires romantically or sexually is a lot more clear cut than the sense of gender identity and it does not affect physical maturation. People don't desist from being gay like they do with feelings of being transgender. To not be skeptical of a specific person's transgenderism (not transgenderism as a whole) is imprudent.
 
Of course it is a matter of belief. If I serve a guest white bread toast for breakfast, knowing he is a coeliac and doing it just to goad him, I am insulting him. If I serve him white bread toast for breakfast having no idea he is a coeliac, I am not insulting him.
Knowledge does not require belief as you claimed. Intentions are not everything. You can insult someone without any intention.

No, my belief is based on evidence that parents usually want the best for their children, though there are some parents that do not want it.
Given you cannot know what parents usually want, your belief is based on your beliefs. At least if you wish to be consistent.



He chooses his words knowing other people have said he is hurting his child by using them.
The other people include his child. Why do you keep trying to hide that fact?
You have no evidence he believes he is hurting the child. I believe he is neither hurting the child nor believes he is.
Belief has nothing to do with it.
If it did, the any child molester could argue that since they loved the child and believe the child loved them, that their actions were not molestation.
There is nothing pedantic about the philosophical definition of 'knowing'.
There is more than one definition of knowing. One is to "be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information." Basically, you are arguing the father is functional and clueless idiot.

The court order was violated because the father used certain pronouns that people have deemed 'insulting'. That's jailing somebody for insults.
It is fascinating you use wording the elides the fact it is the child who objects. The insults are viewed as harassment, since it is not an one time occurrence.

I do admire your willingness to defend verbal abuse of children based on your unwavering principle of free speech.
 
Knowledge does not require belief as you claimed.

I use the justified true belief understanding of knowing.
The Analysis of Knowledge (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Intentions are not everything. You can insult someone without any intention.

Someone can take offense when you did not mean to offend, certainly.

Given you cannot know what parents usually want, your belief is based on your beliefs. At least if you wish to be consistent.

No, I do not know his mind, but I did not claim to know it.


The other people include his child. So you

So I what?

Belief has nothing to do with it.

Belief has everything to do with why this man is calling his female child 'she'.

If it did, the any child molester could argue that since they loved the child and believe the child loved them, that their actions were not molestation.

There is nothing about child molestation that makes it not child molestation based on the emotions of the molester.

There is more than one definition of knowing. One is to "be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information." Basically, you are arguing the father is functional and clueless idiot.

No, I am not saying that. I do not believe he is an idiot for using 'she' when addressing or talking about his female child, even when other people have told him it hurts his female child's feelings.

It is fascinating you use wording the elides the fact it is the child who objects. The insults are viewed as harassment, since it is not an one time occurrence.

It isn't a one-time occurrence because she has remained a female child. A female child objecting to being called 'she' does not mean the State is entitled to arrest and jail anybody for calling her 'she'.

I do admire your willingness to defend verbal abuse of children based on your unwavering principle of free speech.

You don't admire anything about my beliefs or principles. Nor do I believe it is verbal abuse to 'speak your truth', as the left likes to say.
 
If that were the case this entire exchange would be incoherent.

No it wouldn't, only your entire argument would be and is incoherent. Only you are irrationally assuming that strings of letters have scientifically objective meaning. Us sensible folk are assuming that regardless of why, being addressed a particular way is causing emotional harm to a child, and the father hell bent on causing his child more pain for no reason other than b/c he thinks he should be able to or holds an irrational dogma that there is objective truth to word meanings.

We can converse due to having the learned some ever changing culturally shared subjective norms about words, norms that have no more "truth" than the norm that forks go on the left of the plate and knives to the right.

I do not believe that using pronouns that conform to a person's sex cause emotional harm, nor that causing "emotional harm" so defined makes a parent unfit to parent.

Your irrational beliefs are irrelevant. The fact is they can, and the child's own protestations are direct evidence they were harming her. Word definitions are not facts, but it's a fact that words have emotional impact and the most reliable evidence of that impact what each person says that impact is on them. Your desire to ignore direct evidence of other's emotional distress just shows lack of empathy and immoral disregard for others, just like the father. Your position is no different that the delusional parent who thinks their child is not harmed by lack of proper medical care.

Also, believing that you have the right to do something that causes emotional harm to a person

Everyone believes they have the right to cause emotional harm to a person. For example, you have called the father in this case mentally unfit to be a parent, and you do not care that it would cause him emotional harm to be told so.

Causing emotional harm by trying to stop someone causing emotional harm is analogous to shooting a rapist. The harm is incidental to a positive act, not the end in itself. The father is causing harm and there is no reasonable expectation of positive impact to motivate it. Most abuse is from parents who claim to believe they are doing something good. That has no relevance. What matters is whether a reasonable case can be made that the harm is incidental to what is a actual positive act with ultimately helpful harm reducing impact. That is no different than any area of law. A parent who sprains their kids arm trying to yank them out from front of traffic isn't abusive. A parent that causes the same harm because they think pain builds character or b/c they think it ward off the devil is abusive. Context matters.

is not any sort of motive to actual do those things. Hurting people just b/c you think you should be legally able to makes one a vile sociopath and an abusive parent when doing it to your kid.

Except I never suggested you should hurt somebody 'just because you can'.
Yes you did. You said he thinks he has the right to is a reason why he would say such things to someone who told him it hurts them.

No matter what one believes about the nature of transgenderism, the child was, by the father's own admission, mentally unstable and suicidal. He knew the child was distressed by him using those words that he had no actual need to use.

On the contrary, he either had to use words he did not believe to be true, or so painfully concoct his language that he avoided pronoun use all together. And this is only in English. There are other languages that have harder and more explicit gendered aspects than English
.

His belief in "true" definitions is delusional. He is immorally abusing his child to preserve ideological delusions, no different than the parent who tries to burn the devil out of their kid. Not caring enough about your kid to question your own irrational beliefs that lead to harm is abuse.

All he would objectively be doing to avoid abuse is use a couple words in a different non-normative (but no less "true") manner on those rare occasions when using pronouns around the person you are talking about, which is actually uncommon since it means you are not talking to them but only about them in their presence (or it's highly plausible he was just going out of his way to use pronouns when talking directly to the child).

That means he definitively did things that caused emotional harm without any regard for those impacts and for no reason other than either delusion that his defintions are "truth" or because he thought it was his right no matter the harm caused.

You have no evidence that he thought it caused harm. Nor would uttering truths that cause 'emotional harm' make a parent unfit to be a parent.
Again, pronouns are not any kind of truth. And he was told by the child and the court he was causing harm. If he disregarded that evidence than he's guilty of reckless negligence in ignoring valid evidence of the harm he was causing, and that is abuse, just like a parent that ignores medical information and causes harm.


In the context of a parent, that's abuse and should be a crime.

That you think the State should criminalise certain pronoun use does not surprise me though it saddens me. Funnily enough, Jordan Petersen predicted this very thing would happen in Canada, and the left mocked him for it.

As with your thread title, that's a dishonest strawman. No pronouns themselves are being criminalized. Causing clearly and obvious harm to a child after it has been pointed out, and doing it for no reason other that selfish protection of dogma is abuse. It is incidental that the the mechanism of abuse is to repeatedly say particular words that cause your child harm. Suppose your kid had some mental disorder that triggered intense fear every time they hear the word apples. The parent is told this by the child and therapists, but they don't give a shit and they repeatedly and deliberately keep saying "apples" to the kid when their is no reason to do even when apples happen to be present. That would make the parent an abusive fucking asshole.
 
I use the justified true belief understanding of knowing.
The Analysis of Knowledge (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
cool story bro


Metaphor said:
Someone can take offense when you did not mean to offend, certainly.
Which means they are insulted by you
Metaphor said:
Given you cannot know what parents usually want, your belief is based on your beliefs. At least if you wish to be consistent.

No, I do not know his mind, but I did not claim to know it.
Your response did nit address the content.


[
Metaphor said:
There is nothing about child molestation that makes it not child molestation based on the emotions of the molester.
Not accirding to the standard that belief is everything.

There is more than one definition of knowing. One is to "be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information." Basically, you are arguing the father is functional and clueless idiot.
Metaphor said:
No, I am not saying that. I do not believe he is an idiot for using 'she' when addressing or talking about his female child, even when other people have told him it hurts his female child's feelings.
You are since he obviously has observed this is hurtful yet he continues.



Metaphor said:
You don't admire anything about my beliefs or principles. Nor do I believe it is verbal abuse to 'speak your truth', as the left likes to say.
You cannot know what I admire or don’t. You are defending the verbal abuse if this child no matter how you wish to frame it.
 
No it wouldn't, only your entire argument would be and is incoherent. Only you are irrationally assuming that strings of letters have scientifically objective meaning.

No, I am not. Words have meanings, though.

Us sensible folk are assuming that regardless of why, being addressed a particular way is causing emotional harm to a child, and the father hell bent on causing his child more pain for no reason other than b/c he thinks he should be able to or holds an irrational dogma that there is objective truth to word meanings.

There is nothing irrational about understanding that 'she' is the pronoun one uses for female children.

We can converse due to having the learned some ever changing culturally shared subjective norms about words, norms that have no more "truth" than the norm that forks go on the left of the plate and knives to the right.

That 'she' is the pronoun that is applied to female children (or females of any species, really) is a shared subjective norm. To ask somebody to use a pronoun that applies to males for a female is to ask that person to engage in a fiction for politeness.

Your irrational beliefs are irrelevant. The fact is they can, and the child's own protestations are direct evidence they were harming her. Word definitions are not facts, but it's a fact that words have emotional impact and the most reliable evidence of that impact what each person says that impact is on them. Your desire to ignore direct evidence of other's emotional distress just shows lack of empathy and immoral disregard for others, just like the father. Your position is no different that the delusional parent who thinks their child is not harmed by lack of proper medical care.

People are harmed when the State forces them to utter words they do not believe, or be forced into silence about what they believe.

Causing emotional harm by trying to stop someone causing emotional harm is analogous to shooting a rapist.
The harm is incidental to a positive act, not the end in itself.

Yet you have not extended the same courtesy to believing the father is trying to prevent harm to his child.

The father is causing harm and there is no reasonable expectation of positive impact to motivate it.

What positive impact do you expect from labelling the father mentally unfit to parent?

I expect the father believes that everyone indulging his female child's demands to be called 'he' are the people causing harm. Why do you assume he does not have positive motivations?

Most abuse is from parents who claim to believe they are doing something good. That has no relevance. What matters is whether a reasonable case can be made that the harm is incidental to what is a actual positive act with ultimately helpful harm reducing impact. That is no different than any area of law. A parent who sprains their kids arm they to yank them out from front of traffic isn't abusive. A parent that causes the same harm because they think pain builds character or b/c they think it ward off the devil is abusvie. Context matters.

Yes, context matters. The context is that a parent is calling his female child 'she', and she doesn't like being called 'she'. Yet, 'she' is the appropriate pronoun that refers to her sex.

Yes you did. You said he thinks he has the right to is a reason why he would say such things to someone who told him it hurts them.

I said he ought have the legal right to say things that cause hurt to other people, not that you should hurt people just because you can.

His belief in "true" definitions is delusional. He is immorally abusing his child to preserve ideological delusions, no different than the parent who tries to burn the devil out of their kid. Not caring enough about your kid to question your own irrational beliefs that lead to harm is abuse.

I was brought up Catholic, which is day-in, day-out, litany of falsehoods that made me uncomfortable and distressed (for example, imagining the torture of crucifixion). That did not make my parents unfit to be parents.

All he would objectively be doing to avoid abuse is use a couple words in a different non-normative (but no less "true") manner on those rare occasions when using pronouns around the person you are talking about, which is actually uncommon since it means you are not talking to them but only about them in their presence (or it's highly plausible he was just going out of his way to use pronouns when talking directly to the child).

You think it's 'highly plausible' without any evidence whatsoever.

Again, pronouns are not any kind of truth. And he was told by the child and the court he was causing harm. If he disregarded that evidence than he's guilty of reckless negligence in ignoring valid evidence of the harm he was causing, and that is abuse, just like a parent that ignores medical information and causes harm.

You think the court telling him is valid evidence because you already believe the court. You are begging the question.


As with your thread title, that's a dishonest strawman. No pronouns themselves are being criminalized.

I didn't say that. I said certain pronoun use is criminalised.

Causing clearly and obvious harm to a child after it has been pointed out, and doing it for no reason other that selfish protection of dogma is abuse.

Repeating something without evidence does not make it somehow more believable.

but they don't give a shit and they repeatedly and deliberately keep saying "apples" to the kid when their is no reason to do even when apples happen to be present. That would make the parent an abusive fucking asshole.

Yes, it would. What has that got to do with the case at hand? You are now suggesting that the father is going out of his way to use female pronouns like some sort of sadist?

Do you have any idea how deranged it is to think such a thing?
 
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