Federal agents foil murderous Jade Helm 15 retaliation plot

[Bronzeage]

Not if you stockpile imaginary weapons.

There are laws against stockpiling real weapons?

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Well, the question mark at the end gives it away.

But I'll ask it this way: suppose a bunch of people were stockpiling weapons and making plans to thwart an invasion of spiders from Mars. Is that a crime?

It is when they make an explicit plan to lure people into an area and kill them, like these guys did. Thanks for playing!

What people?

It is a crime to conspire to commit a crime. The guns and ammo would be corroborating evidence of the seriousness of the conspiracy.

 

[PyramidHead]

If only Jose Padilla's lawyer had advised him to say he was planning on setting off a dirty bomb to defend Muslims against Martians, he could've been a free man.

 

[ksen]

Unless one is prepared to argue that Jade Helm invaders are real people there is an apparent problem.

Nooo.
Jade Helm is real.
Real people will be entering the state as part of Jade Helm.
Real people will be seen as invaders by the real people that were stockpiling weapons.
The stockpiling conspiracy people were intending to lure these real people into an ambush for the purpose of inflicting grievous harm on them.

Whether the purpose of Jade Helm is a real invasion or an imagined invasion is immaterial to the threat that was posed. You're making an artificial distinction that wouldn't have made any difference in the amount of bloodshed. It's not like they were going to set lures that would only have lured real invaders, but not attracted real soldiers who were not in the area for the purpose of invasion.

Keith

 

[Axulus]

dismal doesn't seem to understand that the plot was to kill real people in response to a fake Government plan to take over the nation.

What real people?

He planned to kill any government agents that showed up on his property - not an unlikely scenario given he was obtaining illegal weapons. He was also going to do something to lure them (i.e. cause some sort of trouble that would get the federal government's attention and send in agents onto his property). It's right in the article.

If you believe the federal government is engaged in a plot to kill Martians, and you want to lure agents of the federal government to kill them in retaliation because you believe killing Martians is a grave crime, and you stockpile a bunch of weapons and come up with a plan to lure them onto your property so you can mass murder them, you are engaging in illegal activity.

 

[dismal]

Not just "Government forces" in the general but Jade Helm invaders in the specific.

Unless one is prepared to argue that Jade Helm invaders are real people there is an apparent problem.

Suppose they were planning to defend against a plot involving Martian mercenaries working on behalf of the US Government, would that be planning against real people because Government forces are real?

If I stab you in the face because I suspect you're the Antichrist, does that fact that you're not absolve me of legal responsibility?

In that particular case there is a specific real person involved.

 

[dismal]

What real people?

He planned to kill any government agents that showed up on his property - not an unlikely scenario given he was obtaining illegal weapons. He was also going to do something to lure them (i.e. cause some sort of trouble that would get the federal government's attention and send in agents onto his property). It's right in the article.

If you believe the federal government is engaged in a plot to kill Martians, and you want to lure agents of the federal government to kill them in retaliation because you believe killing Martians is a grave crime, and you stockpile a bunch of weapons and come up with a plan to lure them onto your property so you can mass murder them, you are engaging in illegal activity.

So you would agree that conspiracy to kill imaginary people would not be a crime?

I'm OK with the idea that having illegal weapons is a crime, and that conspiring to kill law enforcement agents or soldiers engaged in lawful activity is a crime.

Like, for example, if they sent South Carolina National Guard Station #1126 invitations for a weenie roast and skeet shoot at which they were intended to be the targets that would be one thing. Bunkering up against Jade Helm invaders is another.

 

[PyramidHead]

If I stab you in the face because I suspect you're the Antichrist, does that fact that you're not absolve me of legal responsibility?

In that particular case there is a specific real person involved.

Really? The Antichrist is a real person? /dismal

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The article indicates two situations. Firstly, booby-trapping his home for when the Feds arrive.

According to the documents, Litteral was heavily armed with both legally and illegally obtained weapons. If government agents came looking for him at his home, Litteral allegedly told the informant in a phone conversation, he would be ready.
“Lemme tell you something, I gonna have my f——- house rigged up; these motherf—— come try to come in my house, it’s gonna go off,” he said, according to the documents.

This is a hypothetical situation.

Secondly, planning to kill US forces at their property by creating a diversion. Much like how those in Iraq who would blow off a small bomb, and wait for the arrival of emergency personal and then blow up the big bomb. This is an actual threat, because they were to lure people there.

The plan involved testing the explosives on land in Shelby, N.C. But the ambush against U.S. forces would take place on Litteral and Campbell’s a 99-acre camp in Clover, S.C.

“According to [Campbell], he and Litteral intend to booby-trap the camp and draw government’s forces into the camp and kill them,” the warrant states.

 

[KeepTalking]

He planned to kill any government agents that showed up on his property - not an unlikely scenario given he was obtaining illegal weapons. He was also going to do something to lure them (i.e. cause some sort of trouble that would get the federal government's attention and send in agents onto his property). It's right in the article.

If you believe the federal government is engaged in a plot to kill Martians, and you want to lure agents of the federal government to kill them in retaliation because you believe killing Martians is a grave crime, and you stockpile a bunch of weapons and come up with a plan to lure them onto your property so you can mass murder them, you are engaging in illegal activity.

So you would agree that conspiracy to kill imaginary people would not be a crime?

I'm OK with the idea that having illegal weapons is a crime, and that conspiring to kill law enforcement agents or soldiers engaged in lawful activity is a crime.

Like, for example, if they sent South Carolina National Guard Station #1126 invitations for a weenie roast and skeet shoot at which they were intended to be the targets that would be one thing. Bunkering up against Jade Helm invaders is another.

Or, for example, they were planning to do something to lure the government forces into an ambush, which is exactly what they were planning to do.

Enough with the deliberate obtuseness, this has been explained multiple times in this thread, and that would not have been necessary if you would have taken time to read the fucking linked article, or the OP. No need to respond to you any further, at this point you are just being a troll.

 

[dismal]

Or, for example, they were planning to do something to lure the government forces into an ambush, which is exactly what they were planning to do.

They were planning to lure imaginary government forces into a trap.

Unless you are saying Jade Helm invaders are not imaginary, or they were trying to lure government forces who were not Jade Helm invaders.

 

[Axulus]

He planned to kill any government agents that showed up on his property - not an unlikely scenario given he was obtaining illegal weapons. He was also going to do something to lure them (i.e. cause some sort of trouble that would get the federal government's attention and send in agents onto his property). It's right in the article.

If you believe the federal government is engaged in a plot to kill Martians, and you want to lure agents of the federal government to kill them in retaliation because you believe killing Martians is a grave crime, and you stockpile a bunch of weapons and come up with a plan to lure them onto your property so you can mass murder them, you are engaging in illegal activity.

So you would agree that conspiracy to kill imaginary people would not be a crime?

I'm OK with the idea that having illegal weapons is a crime, and that conspiring to kill law enforcement agents or soldiers engaged in lawful activity is a crime.

Like, for example, if they sent South Carolina National Guard Station #1126 invitations for a weenie roast and skeet shoot at which they were intended to be the targets that would be one thing. Bunkering up against Jade Helm invaders is another.

Attempting to lure imaginary people but conspiring to implement plans that will actually lure real people and kill them when they show up is a crime and most definitely should remain a crime. Why would you think otherwise?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Governement forces", they aren't all drones just yet.

Not just "Government forces" in the general but Jade Helm invaders in the specific.

Unless one is prepared to argue that Jade Helm invaders are real people there is an apparent problem.

Suppose they were planning to defend against a plot involving Martian mercenaries working on behalf of the US Government, would that be planning against real people because Government forces are real?

I think the issue comes down to whether the "invaders" were simply people participating in Jade Helm.

 

[Axulus]

Or, for example, they were planning to do something to lure the government forces into an ambush, which is exactly what they were planning to do.

They were planning to lure imaginary government forces into a trap.

Unless you are saying Jade Helm invaders are not imaginary, or they were trying to lure government forces who were not Jade Helm invaders.

Federal agents that these psychos believe are Jade Helm invaders, luring them, and then mass killing them, would result in real, _not_ imaginary, deaths.

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that the lure they were coming up with would only work on Jade Helm invaders. What is leading you to believe the lure would be that precise? You do realize there are ways to get _real_ federal agents to show up onto your property that these psychos believe are Jade Helm invaders?

 

[dismal]

They were planning to lure imaginary government forces into a trap.

Unless you are saying Jade Helm invaders are not imaginary, or they were trying to lure government forces who were not Jade Helm invaders.

Federal agents that these psychos believe are Jade Helm invaders, luring them, and then mass killing them, would result in real, _not_ imaginary, deaths.

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that the lure they were coming up with would only work on Jade Helm invaders. Why are you failing to consider that the lure would be that precise? You do realize there are ways to get _real_ federal agents to show up onto your property?

Yes, killing actual federal agents may very well be a crime.

However, these people are accused of conspiracy to kill imaginary Jade Helm invaders.

Conspiracy is a crime of intent. They did not conspire to kill assorted other people who might have ended up in their traps.

 

[Axulus]

Federal agents that these psychos believe are Jade Helm invaders, luring them, and then mass killing them, would result in real, _not_ imaginary, deaths.

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that the lure they were coming up with would only work on Jade Helm invaders. Why are you failing to consider that the lure would be that precise? You do realize there are ways to get _real_ federal agents to show up onto your property?

Yes, killing actual federal agents may very well be a crime.

However, these people are accused of conspiracy to kill imaginary Jade Helm invaders.

Conspiracy is a crime of intent. They did not conspire to kill assorted other people who might have ended up in their traps.

You think they would've done research on each and every agent that showed up to make sure they were a legit Jade Helm invader before killing them? In fact, that wouldn't be possible considering they intended to booby trap the property. Unless you think these were magical booby traps that only go off when a legit Jade Helm invader triggers it?

Would you also apply the same argument to Jihadi terrorists who are caught before they are able to carry out their plans? After all, they are intending to kill imaginary people (they believe the people they are killing want all Muslims dead or support a country that want all Muslims dead).

 

[dismal]

Yes, killing actual federal agents may very well be a crime.

However, these people are accused of conspiracy to kill imaginary Jade Helm invaders.

Conspiracy is a crime of intent. They did not conspire to kill assorted other people who might have ended up in their traps.

You think they would've done research on each and every agent that showed up to make sure they were a legit Jade Helm invader before killing them?

Why is this relevant to the conspiracy? Did they conspire to kill each and every person that showed up?

Had they set traps they might have bagged the mailman. Then they could be charged with killing the mailman.

But ex ante they did not conspire to kill the mailman.

 

[Axulus]

Why is this relevant to the conspiracy? Did they conspire to kill each and every person that showed up?

They conspired to indiscriminately kill _any_ federal agent that showed up.

Had they set traps they might have bagged the mailman. Then they could be charged with killing the mailman.

But ex ante they did not conspire to kill the mailman.

If they believe that all mailmen are actually lizardmen in disguise, and then conspire set up deadly traps along the path where mailmen are known to travel (or do something to lure mailmen onto their property with the intent to let the bullets rip once they show up), you think they shouldn't be arrested until the trap goes off and kills a mailman? After all, their intent is to kill a bunch of lizardmen, no?

 

[KeepTalking]

Is dismal really still trolling this thread?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Or, for example, they were planning to do something to lure the government forces into an ambush, which is exactly what they were planning to do.

They were planning to lure imaginary government forces into a trap.

Unless you are saying Jade Helm invaders are not imaginary, or they were trying to lure government forces who were not Jade Helm invaders.

You're confused. There is a govt military made up of flesh and blood human earthlings. The delusion of the conspirators involves the intent of those flesh and blood earthlings, not their existence.

 

[dismal]

They conspired to indiscriminately kill _any_ federal agent that showed up.

Had they set traps they might have bagged the mailman. Then they could be charged with killing the mailman.

But ex ante they did not conspire to kill the mailman.

If they believe that all mailmen are actually lizardmen in disguise, and then conspire set up deadly traps along the path where mailmen are known to travel (or do something to lure mailmen onto their property with the intent to let the bullets rip once they show up), you think they shouldn't be arrested until the trap goes off and kills a mailman? After all, their intent is to kill a bunch of lizardmen, no?

You've nailed it. If the intent is to kill lizardmen, and killing lizardmen is not a crime, then there can be no charge of conspiracy to kill lizardmen. There can be no charge of conspiracy to kill mailmen because there was no intent to kill mailmen.

A conspiracy charge requires intent to commit a specific crime.