Feminist Gamer Journalist Targeted For Terrorist Attack

[laughing dog]

How are these portrayals of women in games any worse than portrayals of men in chick lit? Are men like Mr. Grey or Edward/Jacob or Fabio any more realistic than female characters in video games?
Should a "masculinist literature journalist" be invited to OSU to talk about how horrible it is that teenage girls read the Twilight series or that their mothers read 50 Shades series? ....

First, this is totally irrelevant to the topic. Along time ago, my parents taught me that the misbehavior of others cannot be used to justify my misbehavior. Second, until some teenage girls or their mothers threaten to murder or rape others, the comparison to this particular sect of gamers is, at best, moronic.

 

[Derec]

I don't object to men having their fun.

Anita and her supporters apparently do.

What I object to is how saying "Women aren't playthings or possessions" earns flames and rape and/or death threats from males who like their fantasy girlfriends imprisoned or dead.

As I said I do not agree that threats are a good way to combat her ideas. And she doesn't just object to "fantasy girlfriends being imprisoned or dead". She objects to a whole slew of other things a well. But this particular objection is silly as well I think. Video games have a limited time/space to introduce character motivation (especially older games and she admits these tropes were bigger then) and trying to rescue your girl or revenge for her death are powerful incentives for the character. Another common one is "save the world" type of story line. That is far more unrealistic than the story lines Anita objects to but I bet she is fine with it because it doesn't involve female NPCs.

I've been a gamer for about 17 years. I have endured every kind of sexist bullshit from the predominantly male gamers I've encountered online. I've had men yelling "That's right, lie down for me, you whore!" when they defeated my character in a one-on-one fps. I've been asked "How's your vagina?" as a greeting when I logged on to my favorite server. And I've heard the locker-room type of talking that goes on when they don't realize I'm female.

You have now moved from tropes/graphics in games themselves to behavior of gamers in multiplayer games like CS (which really have no gender component). Yet you admit that gamers will trash talk each other as well and when you come into that kind of environment you have to expect to be treated likewise. I do not think the solution is to shame men for being men or to "feminize" the entire gaming environment and such demands rightly cause scorn. Just like with games themselves, the solution is to have servers that allow such trash talk and those that don't. Gamers, male and female, could then choose which they want to play on.

I told one guy that I learned more about men in a couple years of playing CounterStrike than I did in 50 years of living, and it was the simple truth. Listening to the way men talk about and treat women in game environments was a real eye-opener.

You know you can trash talk them as well? Simple solution is to open a server for those that do not want to engage in trash talk.

It would be if the reason the man is dead is so that the woman can mourn the loss of her boy-toy and go out and kill the bastard who forced her to find another young hottie to train up right.

I am sure there is fiction where death of a lover serves as a motivation for a female character. But I am sure there is also a difference in how male and female characters, in aggregate, are portrayed. But so what? Men and women are different (on average). Denial of gender differences is one of the silly (and inconsistent) outgrows of 2nd wave feminism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

<snip>

I do not hate women...

But you'll find something to criticize them for even when their lives are being threatened?

While I do not condone threats, her "tropes against women" thing is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Derec]

First, this is totally irrelevant to the topic. Along time ago, my parents taught me that the misbehavior of others cannot be used to justify my misbehavior.

Of course it is relevant, as it points to gender differences in consuming fiction, regardless of medium. I do not call it "misbehavior", just different tastes, with a gender-variant component.

Second, until some teenage girls or their mothers threaten to murder or rape others, the comparison to this particular sect of gamers is, at best, moronic.

I already said I do not agree with threats and proceeded with criticizing Anita's work. Second, perhaps the reason there are no threats from that side is that there are no "mascunilist journalists" who get invited to universities in order to condemn chick lit and chick flicks as sexist against men.

- - - Updated - - -

But you'll find something to criticize them for even when their lives are being threatened?

Being threatened should not give one immunity from criticism.

 

[Derec]

I think that's the problem right there. Derec's comments make a critical error - he's assuming that everyone who disagrees with him is somehow a single cohesive block. People who hate porn=people who hate sexist video games=people who don't like violent video games=people who hate men=people who support tougher anti-rape laws=etc. etc. etc.

No, I do not think they are a single cohesive block. But there is obviously a huge overlap between feminists who hate porn and those who hate "sexist" video games. And for many that is motivated by their dislike or even hatred of men too.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But you'll find something to criticize them for even when their lives are being threatened?

Being threatened should not give one immunity from criticism.

So you go to funerals and piss on people's graves?

 

[ZiprHead]

I was thinking more about the aspect that freedom of speech can be shut down because Second Amendment (hoo-rah!).

 

[laughing dog]

Of course it is relevant, as it points to gender differences in consuming fiction, regardless of medium. I do not call it "misbehavior", just different tastes, with a gender-variant component.

Bringing up examples of "different tastes" is irrelevant - the tastes of other consumers do not matter.

I already said I do not agree with threats and proceeded with criticizing Anita's work. Second, perhaps the reason there are no threats from that side is that there are no "mascunilist journalists" who get invited to universities in order to condemn chick lit and chick flicks as sexist against men.

If you agree the comparison is moronic, why continue to discuss it?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Exactly what is the threat that Anita Sarkeesian poses to gamers who disagree with her?

Will game developers stop making games? will they stop making games with female characters? will they stop making games with female characters in perilous positions and under developed personalities?

Or is there a tiny group of gamers who had their shit called out and now they feel exposed for what they are and they don't like it?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Exactly what is the threat that Anita Sarkeesian poses to gamers who disagree with her?

Will game developers stop making games? will they stop making games with female characters? will they stop making games with female characters in perilous positions and under developed personalities?

Or is there a tiny group of gamers who had their shit called out and now they feel exposed for what they are and they don't like it?

Well, just look at the new beta release for the next version of Call of Duty. There is far less time devoted to actual combat and far more time spent picking out an outfit to wear to the fight that doesn't make you look fat and sitting around over coffee discussing how shooting bad guys makes you feel.

That's serious changes to the game mechanics of a major title because of people like her.

 

[Bronzeage]

Exactly what is the threat that Anita Sarkeesian poses to gamers who disagree with her?

Will game developers stop making games? will they stop making games with female characters? will they stop making games with female characters in perilous positions and under developed personalities?

Or is there a tiny group of gamers who had their shit called out and now they feel exposed for what they are and they don't like it?

 

[dx713]

Wait, you mean we're going to have more story / character development oriented games thanks to her?
Where the story won't be just a couple of cutscenes? All thanks to her?
She did all alone what the crowd of casual-gamers-wanting-more-than-fruit-ninja or ex-gamers-now-busy-parents pressuring the industry with their wallets for the last decade could not?

Where do I sign to subscribe to those games?
(oh, and who can lend me 1k€ so I can build a gamer conf without having to first argue the need with my family CFO, ie my spouse?)

(sarcasm aside, I really thing feminism is just a side result of a more global pressure. It's harder to immerse in a storyline with unrealistic female characters. But if I'm wrong on how things got turned around, I'm still grateful - I think I'm really going to browse game reviews and minimum confs this week-end)

 

[KeepTalking]

I've worked with gamers in the context of gender issues in games. And I've worked with them in the context of stalking and harassing female players. They're both gamers. The people funding new female developers and the people sending death threats to woman for daring to speak about their hobby are not the same individuals, but they are both gamers, and as long as gamers want to identify themselves as a cohesive group, they have to own all aspects of the group.

Since when do gamers want to identify themselves as a cohesive group? I am a gamer, and I certainly do not want to be identified as cohesive with all gamers. There are gaming groups or guilds I have chosen to identify with, but they have always included women. My wife and my daughter often game with me, so they are usually in the groups or guilds I game with. One prominent MMO guild I was involved with was led by a woman, and another was led by a husband and wife team.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You have now moved from tropes/graphics in games themselves to behavior of gamers in multiplayer games like CS (which really have no gender component). Yet you admit that gamers will trash talk each other as well and when you come into that kind of environment you have to expect to be treated likewise. I do not think the solution is to shame men for being men...

Wait... men being men? So the "Not all men" meme was crap after all?

...or to "feminize" the entire gaming environment and such demands rightly cause scorn.

Feminize? Jebus! What world are you living in? You are aware that in the real world, in workplaces, talk like that is wholly unacceptable, right? You can't shrug your shoulders and say, "Hey, I'm just being a guy."

Go to play online and people are trashing other races of people, but hey, that is just white people being white people.

I don't think people are saying things should be "feminized", I mean what the fuck does that even mean. They are saying the attitudes and
tolerance are abhorrent and not acceptable. You can trash talk, but there are limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

Just like with games themselves, the solution is to have servers that allow such trash talk and those that don't. Gamers, male and female, could then choose which they want to play on.

I find it incredible how you can't see the difference between dehumanizing sexist speech and trash talking.

 

[KeepTalking]

I told one guy that I learned more about men in a couple years of playing CounterStrike than I did in 50 years of living, and it was the simple truth. Listening to the way men talk about and treat women in game environments was a real eye-opener.

You know you can trash talk them as well? Simple solution is to open a server for those that do not want to engage in trash talk.

I have to agree with Derec here. I played a ton of CS and CSS, and my son, who was a teen or even younger at the time, played along side of me. I chose servers that banned foul language, and porn sprays. There were female players on at least one of those servers who were very well respected.

 

[marc]

From what I've seen, there is some criticism of Sarkeesian as being a professional victim. One who exaggerates and skews facts, and even makes up crap, to make her point. That is not to say there isn't any sexism or misogyny in video games and among gamers, but she is not doing any favors to people who want to combat it. The jerks out there who make 'death threats' because they don't like her, even if it is all bark and no bite, are only helping her, and allowing any valid criticism of her to be lumped in with these assholes. (there is also some speculation that her, or her supporters, have made up some phony threats to get her sympathy and headlines. Possible, but not proven)


Of course, I think this is all a bit distracting from the big issue of a University deciding to allow guns at a lecture when there have been threats made. Does this mean the University can never allow any speaker who is in any way controversial? Any attempt at actual security is tossed aside for the false security of a fully armed society? Should presentations now include a podium, and two gun turrets pointed at the audience just in case a shoot out starts?

 

[Nexus]

People need to quit crying about how their avatars are treated in video games. I've played PVP MMOs and its quite common to trash talk and humiliate your opponents. I played mostly females chars in one particular MMO and I would do /emotes on my slain enemies usually squatting and pissing on their corpse, raping the body with a pipe or cutting off their dick. That doesn't mean I hated men. There was one brilliant player that made his char look like a gay stripper cowboy wearing just boots panties and a cowboy hat. He named his toon Brooke 'em in Mountain. I'm sure he wasn't a heterophobe IRL.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not hate women. I merely point out the ridiculous double standards in favor of women in our society. But somehow merely pointing them out is "misogyny".

Take this woman for example. While I do not condone threats, her "tropes against women" thing is beyond ridiculous.

What is beyond ridiculous about it? I've watched her videos and I think she supports her points very well. The tropes she points to are as obvious as whiskers on a walrus.

Have you looked at any of the rebuttals out there?

For example, she rightly points out most female characters are just props used to motivate the male characters. They have no purpose other than to be a damsel in distress, or a potential sexual conquest, or a possession of sorts that the villain has taken from the hero, which motivates him to seek revenge. Even strong characters like Kerrigan in StarCraft are sacrificed so the guys will get angry and the villains will face their righteous wrath. And the way their bodies are rendered - ye gods, who could stand up straight much less run around with that much fleshy mass protruding out in front? Those ladies are as skinny as sticks and they still can't see their toes.

Is it any surprise that they are generally rendered to be attractive? Most characters are rendered with above-average attractiveness except for some evil types that are deliberately made very unattractive.

I don't play a lot of games. Of what I do play, though, I can't recall one where there wasn't a choice between male and female (assuming it's a game where you have a gender at all.)

 

[Enigma]

Indeed, and that's just the start.

If you really piss them off, they'll massively bankroll a feminist organization that is trying to encourage women game developers. Hell, they may even go so far as to track down a guy issuing death threats to Anita Sarkeesian and report him to the FBI. It's almost as if they are just as sick of people issuing death threats as everyone else. Those bastards.

Heck, it could very well be that they aren't the misogynist white male cisgendered neckbeard horde that they've been painted as.

But what do I know? I've just been following this clusterfuck for two months.

I don't think anyone here has said that all male gamers are misogynists, or even most of them.

The OP definitely seems to express that view about GamerGate.

I certainly don't believe it.

Indeed. I have no notion of how anyone could possibly make that mistake....

I told one guy that I learned more about men in a couple years of playing CounterStrike than I did in 50 years of living, and it was the simple truth. Listening to the way men talk about and treat women in game environments was a real eye-opener.

It's not ridiculous that women gamers dislike the blatantly sexist environment they must endure if they want to play. What is ridiculous is expecting them to meekly endure the constant harassment, vile comments, and obscene leering that male gamers feel entitled to dish out. I sure as heck don't put up with it, and I'm always ready to lend my support to the young girls facing it for the first time.

Not "those men", or "those kind of men", or "those assholes", or "assholish guys who play Counterstrike", or "assholes who play first person shooters", or "guys who play first person shooters", or "assholish online multiplayer gamer guys", but just "male gamers" and "men".

As a male gamer who doesn't match any of the qualifiers prior to "male gamer", I don't expect and wouldn't want women gamers to meekly endure the harassment. I expect them to (where available and in rough order of priority) report said assholes, mute said assholes, troll said assholes back with a vengeance, and, in the off-chance that none of those are viable options, use the core mechanics of the game to kill them repeatedly while questioning their manhood over chat/voice chat, which I suspect would get to said asshole male gamers about as much as the harassment gets to the women gamers.
Alternatively, if they want a less wild-west experience, they can find a better server that bans that bullshit so that everyone wins. Granted, my main experience with FPS games was with Team Fortress 2 a few years back, so I may be off on what are viable options.

But there is a small cadre of sexist assholes who have earned every bit of the censure they receive, and quite a bit more IMO.

That small cadre of sexist assholes is everywhere, from Youtube comments to blogs that ostensibly promote "social justice" on Tumblr. What magical power do you believe that the gaming community has to stop such things that those other places lack?

There's no excuse for issuing rape/death threats to people who point out how commonplace abuse of women is, both in the game storylines and in the server chatter.

This has been stated over and over again as if "Death Threats are Horrible and the People Who Make Them are Horrible" is some sort of profound message. It isn't.
However, the fact that Anita gets death threats does not make it horrible for me to say that her videos are poorly researched, often rip-off footage from various Let's Players without attribution, cherry-pick said footage to an extent that an equivalent cherry-picking of Sesame Street could reveal that show's vile misogynist messaging, and make claims that are unjustified even if said footage was a complete and accurate representation.
It also doesn't make it horrible for me to say that she has made a practice of using these threats as a fund-raising opportunity.

Likewise, I'd be more than willing to bet my home, my car, my computer, and every other asset to my name that Rush Limbaugh has been sent several potentially viable death threats from people with whom I share a political party (Democrats). It doesn't oblige me to ignore the bullshit that he spews.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Where does one find better research on the portrayal of women in video games?