Fraud in Minnesomalia

[Emily Lake]

Are you under the delusion those sociological results from history are physical laws? Until you define what you mean by assimilation and show how the Somali population in Mn haven’t met your standards, you are simply spouting bullshit.

Fuck it. I give up on trying to have a reasonable, rational discussion. Obviously, this particular group of highly geographically concentrated first generation refugees from an extremely different cultural background have bucked every bit of sociological knowledge and have completely and fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values in record breaking time. They should be studied as the amazing extreme outliers that they obviously are, because absolutely nobody could ever possibly recognize that they're immigrants. Yep. No notable differences at all. It's magical.

 

[Derec]

People in this discussion opined that Somalis are unable to assimilate well into American culture, never having, afaik, met a single person from Somalia and seeming to base it on an inaccurate and intentionally misleading narrative offered up by Trump and his surrogates.

Nobody is saying that none of them are able to assimilate, but that when you have
a) migrants from a culture very incompatible with ours assimilation is more difficulty than say Irish and Italians in the 19th/early 20th centuries
b) when there is a large influx of mass migrants from those cultures they tend to form a parallel society

It is a dogma among the left that all immigration is good, no matter the numbers and the culture of migrants. We are seeing that dogma failing horribly in western Europe - even UAE is seeing UK as a radicalization danger because of Muslim Brotherhood influence.

Immigration works well when the immigrants are from a similar culture - like say between European countries or European immigrants into the US. It can also work well when the culture is different, but not directly opposed to the values of the host countries - such as many of the Asian immigrants. And when the numbers are small, assimilation can even work for those of incompatible cultures, as children of immigrants spend most time among the host population. But when the numbers are large, these children can interact mostly with members of the migrant community, and there is a danger of parallel societies being formed. With increased immigration and breeding, that can lead to balkanization. It is not theoretical either - the reason Kosovo split from Serbia is because of mass influx of Albanian Shiptars who never assimilated to the host society and eventually took over.

You and Emily Lake have no idea what you are talking about with regards to how well or not Somalis have adapted to American culture.

I think you are the one who has no idea, holding fast to a pollyannish attitude on mass migration.

It is difficult not to see it as racism or anti Islamist.

Islam is not a race, and anybody sane should oppose  Islamism.

I may be wrong but it seems a lot like bigotry to base a set of assumptions about a diaspora’s ability to adopt to a new culture on inaccurate and outdated stereotypes

Yes, you are wrong.

 

[Derec]

I greatly prefer my own nation and its freedoms, thank you.

How long do you think you can maintain that freedom if the country becomes more and more Islamist over time?

 

[laughing dog]

Are you under the delusion those sociological results from history are physical laws? Until you define what you mean by assimilation and show how the Somali population in Mn haven’t met your standards, you are simply spouting bullshit.

Fuck it. I give up on trying to have a reasonable, rational discussion. Obviously, this particular group of highly geographically concentrated first generation refugees from an extremely different cultural background have bucked every bit of sociological knowledge and have completely and fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values in record breaking time. They should be studied as the amazing extreme outliers that they obviously are, because absolutely nobody could ever possibly recognize that they're immigrants. Yep. No notable differences at all. It's magical.

I don’t know whether they have “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values”, but clearly you have no fucking clue. Nor do I know why any of that has to with the OP, and apparently neither do you.

BTW, there are plenty of recognisable immigrants who are “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions and values”. Does that mean they aren’t assimilated?

 

[Derec]

No one needs to be compelled. Children want to fit in with their peers. Assimilation will occur whether mom and dad like it or not.

That works when there is a small number of migrants from a culture. But if you have a large Somali, or Afghan etc. community due to large-scale migration, the peers these children have will also be Somali, or at least Muslim. They can go to Muslim schools, interact with people in the mosques, shop at Somali (or otherwise halal) stores, buy books from Islamic bookstores (like the one would-be Herald Square bomber Matin Siraj worked at) and eat at Somali (or otherwise halal) restaurants.
And they get married amongst each other (often arranged by parents) and then their children can be kept in the balkanized parallel society as well. Rinse, repeat, while we watch their numbers keep increasing even without additional migration because they keep having a multitude of children.

And for Emily, lack of assimilation need not cause strife. It depends how permissive law enforcement is with regards to white supremacist or whatever hate group might be about.

Yeah, everything is always whitey's fault. You never hear your Ilk talk about Islamic supremacism.
Convicted Bomb Plotter Sentenced to 30 Years
This Somali wanted to blow up the Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Portland.

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you under the delusion those sociological results from history are physical laws? Until you define what you mean by assimilation and show how the Somali population in Mn haven’t met your standards, you are simply spouting bullshit.

Fuck it. I give up on trying to have a reasonable, rational discussion. Obviously, this particular group of highly geographically concentrated first generation refugees from an extremely different cultural background have bucked every bit of sociological knowledge and have completely and fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values in record breaking time. They should be studied as the amazing extreme outliers that they obviously are, because absolutely nobody could ever possibly recognize that they're immigrants. Yep. No notable differences at all. It's magical.

I don’t know whether they have “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values”, but clearly you have no fucking clue. Nor do I know why any of that has to with the OP, and apparently neither do you.

BTW, there are plenty of recognisable immigrants who are “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions and values”. Does that mean they aren’t assimilated?

If they're fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values... then they ARE assimilated. That's what assimilation means!

FFS, it's exhausting trying to have a rational discussion when the only thing some of you people seem capable of seeing is skin color.

 

[laughing dog]

I may be wrong but it seems a lot like bigotry to base a set of assumptions about a diaspora’s ability to adopt to a new culture on inaccurate and outdated stereotypes

Yes, you are wrong.

How could using inaccurate and outdated stereotypes to base a set of assumptions about a diaspora’s ability to adopt to a new culture NOT be a lot like bigotry?

 

[laughing dog]

Are you under the delusion those sociological results from history are physical laws? Until you define what you mean by assimilation and show how the Somali population in Mn haven’t met your standards, you are simply spouting bullshit.

Fuck it. I give up on trying to have a reasonable, rational discussion. Obviously, this particular group of highly geographically concentrated first generation refugees from an extremely different cultural background have bucked every bit of sociological knowledge and have completely and fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values in record breaking time. They should be studied as the amazing extreme outliers that they obviously are, because absolutely nobody could ever possibly recognize that they're immigrants. Yep. No notable differences at all. It's magical.

I don’t know whether they have “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values”, but clearly you have no fucking clue. Nor do I know why any of that has to with the OP, and apparently neither do you.

BTW, there are plenty of recognisable immigrants who are “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions and values”. Does that mean they aren’t assimilated?

If they're fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values... then they ARE assimilated. That's what assimilation means!

So recognization as an immigrant has nothing to do with assimilation, contrary to your sarcasm.
It appears to me that the only basis for your unassimilated conclusion is time. You have presented information about how integrated into american, norms etc… the Somali community is, or why it is relevant to the OP.

FFS, it's exhausting trying to have a rational discussion when the only thing some of you people seem capable of seeing is skin color.

Given your communication skills, I can imagine.

 

[Politesse]

I greatly prefer my own nation and its freedoms, thank you.

How long do you think you can maintain that freedom if the country becomes more and more Islamist over time?

Indefinitely, because that is an entirely imaginary threat, concocted and promulgated by cut-rate local neonazis rather than by anything that actually happens. If sharia law were ever instituted in fucking Minnesota of all places, a few daycare facilities (allegedly) cooking their books would not be the sole piece of evidence you can provide for your favorite racist conspiracy theories.

 

[Emily Lake]

How could using inaccurate and outdated steroids

Using inaccurate and outdated steroids is bad for your health

 

[laughing dog]

How could using inaccurate and outdated steroids

Using inaccurate and outdated steroids is bad for your health

Nice catch - thanks.

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you under the delusion those sociological results from history are physical laws? Until you define what you mean by assimilation and show how the Somali population in Mn haven’t met your standards, you are simply spouting bullshit.

Fuck it. I give up on trying to have a reasonable, rational discussion. Obviously, this particular group of highly geographically concentrated first generation refugees from an extremely different cultural background have bucked every bit of sociological knowledge and have completely and fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values in record breaking time. They should be studied as the amazing extreme outliers that they obviously are, because absolutely nobody could ever possibly recognize that they're immigrants. Yep. No notable differences at all. It's magical.

I don’t know whether they have “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values”, but clearly you have no fucking clue. Nor do I know why any of that has to with the OP, and apparently neither do you.

BTW, there are plenty of recognisable immigrants who are “fully integrated into american social norms, traditions and values”. Does that mean they aren’t assimilated?

If they're fully integrated into american social norms, traditions, and values... then they ARE assimilated. That's what assimilation means!

So recognization as an immigrant has nothing to do with assimilation,

Immigration has everything to do with assimilation. Or rather, immigration is usually the start of the assimilation process, the process of melting into a host culture. Hell, if you move to a different state it usually takes time to assimilate to the culture of that state!

contrary to your sarcasm.

My sarcasm was related to you demanding some sort of thesis on the topic to "prove" that a concentrated group of first gen refugees from a very different culture aren't yet assimilated.

It appears to me that the only basis for your unassimilated conclusion is time. You have presented information about how integrated into american, norms etc… the Somali community is, or why it is relevant to the OP.

You say that like it's some kind of gotcha or insight, but that's quite literally how it works. It takes time, usually three or four generations. I'm pretty sure I said that way way back in one of my earliest posts on the topic of assimilation.

FFS, it's exhausting trying to have a rational discussion when the only thing some of you people seem capable of seeing is skin color.

Given your communication skills, I can imagine.

Perhaps if you read for comprehension it might help?

In all seriousness... LD do you think that assimilation is a bad thing? Or that saying a new immigrant hasn't assimilated is some sort of moral judgement?

 

[laughing dog]

It appears to me that the only basis for your unassimilated conclusion is time. You have presented information about how integrated into american, norms etc… the Somali community is, or why it is relevant to the OP.

You say that like it's some kind of gotcha or insight, but that's quite literally how it works. It takes time, usually three or four generations. I'm pretty sure I said that way way back in one of my earliest posts on the topic of assimilation.

”Usually”? How does know when it is actually met?

Still waiting on why assimilation is relevant to the OP

FFS, it's exhausting trying to have a rational discussion when the only thing some of you people seem capable of seeing is skin color.

Given your communication skills, I can imagine.

Perhaps if you read for comprehension it might help?

In all seriousness... LD do you think that assimilation is a bad thing? Or that saying a new immigrant hasn't assimilated is some sort of moral judgement?

I think assimilation is such an amorphous empirical concept that is rather pointless.

 

[Toni]

My point is that when you ( generic) point your finger at someone else, four fingers are pointing back at you. This ‘unable to assimilate’ is just bs garbage code for: they are awfully dark.

No, Toni, it's not. And it's beneath you to drop to a school yard taunt and insinuate that I'm racist. It's false and it's malicious. If you can't actually engage in a discussion in good faith, then stay out of it.

I guarantee I've got more racial, ethnic, and cultural diversity in my family than you do, so knock this childish BS off.

Additionally, I did not say unable to assimilate, I said unassimilated. Assimilation takes time, usually three to four generations. And that holds true regardless of melanin content. It took generations for Irish immigrants to assimilate, same with Polish immigrants - and those two groups have a shared cultural basis.

Understanding how assimilation occurs and what situations speed or slow that assimilation is just knowledge. Assimilation isn't a bad thing - it's actually a necessary thing for a nation to maintain cohesion. Lack of assimilation creates conflict, strife, and can lead to balkanization.

You knock it off. There is no ‘win’ or guarantee of non-bigotry based on the number of non-white, or non-US born or non-straight or non-gender confirming individuals in your family or friend group. I never said YOU were racist. I said that was often code ( generally speaking, not specific to you) for too dark.

Oh BS. You can pretend that it wasn't intended as an attack on me, but if so you're extraordinarily bad at basic communication. You keep hopping in to add insulting insinuations then you fall back on "oh I didn't mean you!" As if you were having a conversation with someone else? You've done it a few times in this exchange. And YOU keep bring race into it, with the very clear insinuation that discussing assimilation is tantamount to racism.

I am always very direct and unequivocal when I have something to say to any particular person.

Communication is a two way process. Perhaps the fault is with you and not me

 

[Toni]

People in this discussion opined that Somalis are unable to assimilate well into American culture, never having, afaik, met a single person from Somalia and seeming to base it on an inaccurate and intentionally misleading narrative offered up by Trump and his surrogates.

Nobody is saying that none of them are able to assimilate, but that when you have
a) migrants from a culture very incompatible with ours assimilation is more difficulty than say Irish and Italians in the 19th/early 20th centuries
b) when there is a large influx of mass migrants from those cultures they tend to form a parallel society

It is a dogma among the left that all immigration is good, no matter the numbers and the culture of migrants. We are seeing that dogma failing horribly in western Europe - even UAE is seeing UK as a radicalization danger because of Muslim Brotherhood influence.

Immigration works well when the immigrants are from a similar culture - like say between European countries or European immigrants into the US. It can also work well when the culture is different, but not directly opposed to the values of the host countries - such as many of the Asian immigrants. And when the numbers are small, assimilation can even work for those of incompatible cultures, as children of immigrants spend most time among the host population. But when the numbers are large, these children can interact mostly with members of the migrant community, and there is a danger of parallel societies being formed. With increased immigration and breeding, that can lead to balkanization. It is not theoretical either - the reason Kosovo split from Serbia is because of mass influx of Albanian Shiptars who never assimilated to the host society and eventually took over.

You and Emily Lake have no idea what you are talking about with regards to how well or not Somalis have adapted to American culture.

I think you are the one who has no idea, holding fast to a pollyannish attitude on mass migration.

It is difficult not to see it as racism or anti Islamist.

Islam is not a race, and anybody sane should oppose  Islamism.

I may be wrong but it seems a lot like bigotry to base a set of assumptions about a diaspora’s ability to adopt to a new culture on inaccurate and outdated stereotypes

Yes, you are wrong.

Derec, you have no idea what you are talking about. The Somali diaspora in Minnesota has failed to assimilate to the extent that members of that same unassimilated diaspora hold elected office. Which is weird, considering that Ilhan Omar ( who is only one Somali American elected to public office in Minnesota) is a frequent target of yours.

 

[robnisch]

This fraud was the largest but by no means the only one. 10 I think were over $1,000,000.
I am pretty sure many were done by nice white people.

 

[Toni]

This fraud was the largest but by no means the only one. 10 I think were over $1,000,000.
I am pretty sure many were done by nice white people.

In many states. See Rick Scott of FL.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Assimilation is a two-way process. Not only must the immigrants make an effort to be assimilated, but the locals must be willing to assimilate them. In much of American (and most other nations) history this often has not happened (quickly). Additionally, it is not just immigrants that are not assimilated. Look at the well known cases of black people in mainly white communities in America being treated like total outsiders.

If this were white South Africans instead of black Somalis, attitudes of Trump and other racists throughout USA would be very different, including saying any charges should be investigated, instead of automatically claiming (without evidence or rational thought) the accused are guilty, and falsely accusing a whole group of people for the alleged actions of a few (plus actual main felon is white).

 

[TV and credit cards]

No one needs to be compelled. Children want to fit in with their peers. Assimilation will occur whether mom and dad like it or not.

That works when there is a small number of migrants from a culture. But if you have a large Somali, or Afghan etc. community due to large-scale migration, the peers these children have will also be Somali, or at least Muslim. They can go to Muslim schools, interact with people in the mosques, shop at Somali (or otherwise halal) stores, buy books from Islamic bookstores (like the one would-be Herald Square bomber Matin Siraj worked at) and eat at Somali (or otherwise halal) restaurants.
And they get married amongst each other (often arranged by parents) and then their children can be kept in the balkanized parallel society as well. Rinse, repeat, while we watch their numbers keep increasing even without additional migration because they keep having a multitude of children.

As far as concentrated immigrant communities go, this has been my assumption also but it is just that and I wonder from where does it spring, what we used to commonly call "the idiot box" perhaps?
Most of my experiences with such is myself immersed in the Filipino community both here in the US and abroad. Plenty of occasions where I might be the only one like me in the group, one of only a few, or a more or less 50/50 mix. I can only say, good times were had by all. In this I think there is a lot to be said for judging each person on their own merit.

And for Emily, lack of assimilation need not cause strife. It depends how permissive law enforcement is with regards to white supremacist or whatever hate group might be about.

Yeah, everything is always whitey's fault. You never hear your Ilk talk about Islamic supremacism.
Convicted Bomb Plotter Sentenced to 30 Years
This Somali wanted to blow up the Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Portland.

I only mentioned "white supremacists" in response to Emily's post because Emily had mentioned it. I expanded with "or whatever hate group" to specifically avoid another responding with something along the lines of, "Yeah, everything is always whitey's fault." It looks like I failed in my effort.
It is not "my ilk". Not by a country mile. My worldly experiences and interactions with other cultures have of course caused me to form opinions but I always remind myself they are just that, the experiences of one person.

 

[Toni]

No one needs to be compelled. Children want to fit in with their peers. Assimilation will occur whether mom and dad like it or not.

That works when there is a small number of migrants from a culture. But if you have a large Somali, or Afghan etc. community due to large-scale migration, the peers these children have will also be Somali, or at least Muslim. They can go to Muslim schools, interact with people in the mosques, shop at Somali (or otherwise halal) stores, buy books from Islamic bookstores (like the one would-be Herald Square bomber Matin Siraj worked at) and eat at Somali (or otherwise halal) restaurants.
And they get married amongst each other (often arranged by parents) and then their children can be kept in the balkanized parallel society as well. Rinse, repeat, while we watch their numbers keep increasing even without additional migration because they keep having a multitude of children.

As far as concentrated immigrant communities go, this has been my assumption also but it is just that and I wonder from where does it spring, what we used to commonly call "the idiot box" perhaps?
Most of my experiences with such is myself immersed in the Filipino community both here in the US and abroad. Plenty of occasions where I might be the only one like me in the group, one of only a few, or a more or less 50/50 mix. I can only say, good times were had by all. In this I think there is a lot to be said for judging each person on their own merit.

And for Emily, lack of assimilation need not cause strife. It depends how permissive law enforcement is with regards to white supremacist or whatever hate group might be about.

Yeah, everything is always whitey's fault. You never hear your Ilk talk about Islamic supremacism.
Convicted Bomb Plotter Sentenced to 30 Years
This Somali wanted to blow up the Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Portland.

I only mentioned "white supremacists" in response to Emily's post because Emily had mentioned it. I expanded with "or whatever hate group" to specifically avoid another responding with something along the lines of, "Yeah, everything is always whitey's fault." It looks like I failed in my effort.
It is not "my ilk". Not by a country mile. My worldly experiences and interactions with other cultures have of course caused me to form opinions but I always remind myself they are just that, the experiences of one person.

Yeah, Derec's link had nothing to do with Minnesota and is related to an incident more than 10 years ago by an individual. Individual was caught, tried, convicted and sentenced. As should be. He happily ignores all of the US born white males who commit mass murders against school children, concert goers, church goers, etc.

You have nothing to apologize for. Full stop.