Fraud in Minnesomalia

[Toni]

oeioke?

People. Again: I am a terrible typist and my phone hates me, sometimes changing words, etc.

I already apologized for that, upthread. Note the emojie, I was only trying to be lighthearted. And I had had too much beer. But sorry again! I am not one to call out typos, as my post history will show.

I can understand your frustration.

No problem. I’m a terrible typist and so I have a thick skin. I also probably missed some of the posts. Please don’t take offense. I should be better at proofreading but I have watched my phone change words that were correctly spelled to something else so I assume 20% of my errors are my phone hating me.

At this point, I'm inclined to take offense on your behalf.

You've pointed it out yourself, and I agree with you - you make simple typing mistakes (and phones are possesed by autocorrect demons), but in almost all cases what you intended to type is obvious and easy to infer. But people (not WAB, who is generally kind hearted and friendly) will make a point of giving you grief about it. I don't think you should be expected to politely tolerate being hassled and mocked for what is obviously just a typo. I think it's an act of intentional cruelty from people who get off on making fun of others and basically get a rush from being dickheads.

I'm tired of people - especially women - being expected to just deal with such uncivil, disrespectful, childish school-yard taunting. There's no justification for it, and it happens to you a LOT. It's bullshit, and I don't think you should be so thick skinned about people being assholes to you for their own jollies.

Hey, I don't take offense at the digs, and especially not from WAB, who I think was genuinely confused by my typo and not getting in a dig. I could totally understand the confusion. From people who delight in making digs at me: why would I care? I wish I were a better typist or more careful about remembering to proofread before I hit post but....I'm not. I need to do better and until/unless I do: I think I'm fair game.

 

[Toni]

Again: the initial fraud scheme was committed by a white woman. Many/most immigrants tend to be tight knit and stick together for many reasons. It makes sense that once one or two Somali people became involved in this particular fraud scheme, that it would spread to others in their community, just as any Ponzi scheme would spread through a church group or country club or neighborhood. Immigrant populations are extremely vulnerable without all of the Trump nonsense going on.

Hey, I get where you're coming from, but I think you're being overly generous and forgiving here. Set aside whatever assumptions you're making about race, and think about this without consideration to melanin content.

In a ponzi scheme that spreads through a community, the community members are the *victims* of that ponzi scheme, not participants in it. The church group are the ones being ripped off by the fraudster. That's not the case here. This isn't a case of the community being taken advantage of by a conman or fraudster, this is the community getting involved in committing the fraud.

I could see an argument that recent immigrants might be vulnerable to being taken advantage of by nefarious hacks. What I'm not seeing is how that applies here... unless you're contending that immigrant populations are extremely vulnerable to being the nefarious hacks taking advantage of citizens.

I am NOT excusing the fraud. I dislike fraud as much as anyone. However I was attempting to explain how a fraud scheme could spread through a community, and in this case, may not have been recognized as fraud by all of those participating. There are significant cultural differences, difficulties experienced by the Somali diaspora as they fled their homeland in the wake of terrible war. I know quite well that immigrant populations are often victimized by others, including,, imo, our immigration process which is tedious and mercurial as the most flattering interpretation. Certainly, employers employ undocumented workers not necessarily from the goodness of their hearts, hoping to help out struggling people who hope to become US Citizens. In fact, I am aware of builders who specifically hire undocumented workers and then fire them without paying them as a project completes and the contractor receives his payout, thus avoiding pesky little things like paying for labor done. And some are a lot worse.

 

[Derec]

Why do this? There's no good reason for it when you know damned good and well what was intended and that it was just a typo. Why engage in asshole behavior like this? It's rude and just plain mean. Don't do it.

I do not think it's too much to expect that somebody do a cursory proofread of what they wrote. Especially if that someone is prone to typos and autocorrect fails.
Occasional typos slip through for everyone, sure, but a little effort into reducing them would be appreciated.

 

[WAB]

oeioke?

People. Again: I am a terrible typist and my phone hates me, sometimes changing words, etc.

I already apologized for that, upthread. Note the emojie, I was only trying to be lighthearted. And I had had too much beer. But sorry again! I am not one to call out typos, as my post history will show.

I can understand your frustration.

No problem. I’m a terrible typist and so I have a thick skin. I also probably missed some of the posts. Please don’t take offense. I should be better at proofreading but I have watched my phone change words that were correctly spelled to something else so I assume 20% of my errors are my phone hating me.

At this point, I'm inclined to take offense on your behalf.

You've pointed it out yourself, and I agree with you - you make simple typing mistakes (and phones are possesed by autocorrect demons), but in almost all cases what you intended to type is obvious and easy to infer. But people (not WAB, who is generally kind hearted and friendly) will make a point of giving you grief about it. I don't think you should be expected to politely tolerate being hassled and mocked for what is obviously just a typo. I think it's an act of intentional cruelty from people who get off on making fun of others and basically get a rush from being dickheads.

I'm tired of people - especially women - being expected to just deal with such uncivil, disrespectful, childish school-yard taunting. There's no justification for it, and it happens to you a LOT. It's bullshit, and I don't think you should be so thick skinned about people being assholes to you for their own jollies.

To Emily,

Well, I already apologized twice to Toni upthread. And I explained that it was lighthearted, hence the rimshot emojie. That symbol suggests levity. It literally means levity! How does that translate to giving her grief about it? And who exactly was hassling and mocking Toni? Because it wasn't me, or anyone else that I can see.

Intentional cruelty? Getting a rush from being a dickhead? And this was because Toni is a woman?? That is beyond the pale, if you know anything about me and my posting history. You would be hard pressed to find a single post that even hints at animosity towards women. In fact you'll find the contrary. I've been outspoken about my respect for women, and have defended women, even to the point of being very critical of men!

My avatar is a woman, for heavens' sake. And not some kind of cheesecake, but a famous photograph of a tribal woman and her baby, from early 1900s. I've used it for ten yrs at least.

Not only that, certainly you've noticed the plethora of likes and agreements I've lodged to your posts?

Citing a typo which is especially errant, and obviously accidental, for the sake of levity, is admittedly sophomoric, but hardly constitutes hassling or mockery. To call out a typo in an attempt to undermine someone's argument is fallacious and stupid, but that's not what I did.

Sorry, Toni!!!!

 

[Toni]

oeioke?

People. Again: I am a terrible typist and my phone hates me, sometimes changing words, etc.

I already apologized for that, upthread. Note the emojie, I was only trying to be lighthearted. And I had had too much beer. But sorry again! I am not one to call out typos, as my post history will show.

I can understand your frustration.

No problem. I’m a terrible typist and so I have a thick skin. I also probably missed some of the posts. Please don’t take offense. I should be better at proofreading but I have watched my phone change words that were correctly spelled to something else so I assume 20% of my errors are my phone hating me.

At this point, I'm inclined to take offense on your behalf.

You've pointed it out yourself, and I agree with you - you make simple typing mistakes (and phones are possesed by autocorrect demons), but in almost all cases what you intended to type is obvious and easy to infer. But people (not WAB, who is generally kind hearted and friendly) will make a point of giving you grief about it. I don't think you should be expected to politely tolerate being hassled and mocked for what is obviously just a typo. I think it's an act of intentional cruelty from people who get off on making fun of others and basically get a rush from being dickheads.

I'm tired of people - especially women - being expected to just deal with such uncivil, disrespectful, childish school-yard taunting. There's no justification for it, and it happens to you a LOT. It's bullshit, and I don't think you should be so thick skinned about people being assholes to you for their own jollies.

To Emily,

Well, I already apologized twice to Toni upthread. And I explained that it was lighthearted, hence the rimshot emojie. That symbol suggests levity. It literally means levity! How does that translate to giving her grief about it? And who exactly was hassling and mocking Toni? Because it wasn't me, or anyone else that I can see.

Intentional cruelty? Getting a rush from being a dickhead? And this was because Toni is a woman?? That is beyond the pale, if you know anything about me and my posting history. You would be hard pressed to find a single post that even hints at animosity towards women. In fact you'll find the contrary. I've been outspoken about my respect for women, and have defended women, even to the point of being very critical of men!

My avatar is a woman, for heavens' sake. And not some kind of cheesecake, but a famous photograph of a tribal woman and her baby, from early 1900s. I've used it for ten yrs at least.

Not only that, certainly you've noticed the plethora of likes and agreements I've lodged to your posts?

Citing a typo which is especially errant, and obviously accidental, for the sake of levity, is admittedly sophomoric, but hardly constitutes hassling or mockery. To call out a typo in an attempt to undermine someone's argument is fallacious and stupid, but that's not what I did.

Sorry, Toni!!!!

I’m sorry WAB for all the undeserved grief! You’re always aces in my book.

I’d apologize for my typing but given my lack of progress on that, it would seem insincere.

 

[laughing dog]

$47 million. You know, I think one of the things we've learned about this scandal is that white people hate it when minorities commit fraud.

That's what you think you learned?

I would think that you should learn that US citizens hate it when non-citizens commit fraud with US taxpayer money.

None of us approve of fraud committed by citizens either, which should go without saying.

Yet, the hullabaloo over this fraud is both louder and longer lasting than the larger ones during covid. Do you think these are just slower news days?

 

[Emily Lake]

Hey, I don't take offense at the digs, and especially not from WAB, who I think was genuinely confused by my typo and not getting in a dig.

I don't think WAB was trying to get a dig. I like WAB, he just had the misfortune to be the first person to make a joke about your typing after you pointed it out. I'm confident that WAB didn't intend offense... but I can't say the same about some of the others. And whether you welcome it or not - it's unfair that you're expected to just grin and bear behavior that amounts to schoolyard bullying. You're expected to extend grace to those who show you none. I think it's unfair, I think it's blatantly unjust, and I don't think it should be tolerated.

I especially don't think YOU should have to tolerate their poor behavior.

I could totally understand the confusion. From people who delight in making digs at me: why would I care? I wish I were a better typist or more careful about remembering to proofread before I hit post but....I'm not. I need to do better and until/unless I do: I think I'm fair game.

Someone else's desire to laugh AT you and be a jerk doesn't imply that you need to do anything better, nor do I think it makes you fair game.

Your tolerance of this behavior doesn't reduce it, it ends up encouraging it and making people think that it's acceptable. It makes it worse.

I know my patience has entirely run the fuck out, and I'm very tired of always trying to play nice. Do you remember this place just a decade ago? Sure, there were always the occasional loss of temper and lashing out, and we sometimes had an asshole run through for a bit. But on the whole most posters were civil and respectful most of the time. Pile-ons and harassment, drive by shitting on other people wasn't routinely tolerated. And those who turned the other cheek did so with the reasonable expectation that moderators would take action against the periodic asshole being rude and cruel on purpose.

Is the current state even remotely similar to that? We got lax, we've known each other too long. And the tolerance that you show toward people who take digs at you enables them to continue to make taking digs a regular part of their interactions.

It's behavior that all of us should have grown out of around age 15. Most of us did. Some have backslid, and they've slid a very long way.

I don't think you should be tolerant of it. Despite some rather heated arguments between you and I, I think you merit respect and have earned it. I think the expectation of mutual civility should be actually enforced by staff.

 

[Emily Lake]

oeioke?

People. Again: I am a terrible typist and my phone hates me, sometimes changing words, etc.

I already apologized for that, upthread. Note the emojie, I was only trying to be lighthearted. And I had had too much beer. But sorry again! I am not one to call out typos, as my post history will show.

I can understand your frustration.

No problem. I’m a terrible typist and so I have a thick skin. I also probably missed some of the posts. Please don’t take offense. I should be better at proofreading but I have watched my phone change words that were correctly spelled to something else so I assume 20% of my errors are my phone hating me.

At this point, I'm inclined to take offense on your behalf.

You've pointed it out yourself, and I agree with you - you make simple typing mistakes (and phones are possesed by autocorrect demons), but in almost all cases what you intended to type is obvious and easy to infer. But people (not WAB, who is generally kind hearted and friendly) will make a point of giving you grief about it. I don't think you should be expected to politely tolerate being hassled and mocked for what is obviously just a typo. I think it's an act of intentional cruelty from people who get off on making fun of others and basically get a rush from being dickheads.

I'm tired of people - especially women - being expected to just deal with such uncivil, disrespectful, childish school-yard taunting. There's no justification for it, and it happens to you a LOT. It's bullshit, and I don't think you should be so thick skinned about people being assholes to you for their own jollies.

To Emily,

Well, I already apologized twice to Toni upthread. And I explained that it was lighthearted, hence the rimshot emojie. That symbol suggests levity. It literally means levity! How does that translate to giving her grief about it? And who exactly was hassling and mocking Toni? Because it wasn't me, or anyone else that I can see.

I know, WAB, and I'm sorry I jumped on you. I know it was intended as a friendly jab... but it was on the heels of Toni already having expressed some frustration over people (not you) constantly taking jabs about her typing... and those others aren't particularly friendly about it.

Intentional cruelty? Getting a rush from being a dickhead? And this was because Toni is a woman?? That is beyond the pale, if you know anything about me and my posting history. You would be hard pressed to find a single post that even hints at animosity towards women. In fact you'll find the contrary. I've been outspoken about my respect for women, and have defended women, even to the point of being very critical of men!

My avatar is a woman, for heavens' sake. And not some kind of cheesecake, but a famous photograph of a tribal woman and her baby, from early 1900s. I've used it for ten yrs at least.

Not only that, certainly you've noticed the plethora of likes and agreements I've lodged to your posts?

Citing a typo which is especially errant, and obviously accidental, for the sake of levity, is admittedly sophomoric, but hardly constitutes hassling or mockery. To call out a typo in an attempt to undermine someone's argument is fallacious and stupid, but that's not what I did.

Sorry, Toni!!!!

None of the rest of that was about you. I'm sorry that it came across that way, it wasn't my intention.

 

[Emily Lake]

$47 million. You know, I think one of the things we've learned about this scandal is that white people hate it when minorities commit fraud.

That's what you think you learned?

I would think that you should learn that US citizens hate it when non-citizens commit fraud with US taxpayer money.

None of us approve of fraud committed by citizens either, which should go without saying.

Yet, the hullabaloo over this fraud is both louder and longer lasting than the larger ones during covid. Do you think these are just slower news days?

I think there's a difference you're not seeing. I dunno, I'm getting really, really cynical and distrustful lately so my inclination is to think that you're intentionally evading it. Probably not, but that's where my head is at lately.

Here's the difference: Nobody was excusing or justifying the PPE fraud during covid. Nobody was accusing those who objected to it of blowing it out of proportion, or of being racist, or of only complaining of the fraud because they were prejudiced against the people committing it. Pretty much everyone collectively said "hey, that's fucked up!" and nobody opposed that view. It wasn't something that became partisan.

If everyone in this thread had said "yeah, that's fucked up!" on page one, the thread would probably have only made it to page two. And then only because I suspect Derek would have had some digs for Walz about it. Instead, it was immediately met with a personal insult and politicization of it, handwaved away as "republicans do worse", and accusations that it's only a topic because of racism. Essentially, every possible excuse was trotted out for why nobody should be upset by it.

That's the difference. One of these is something we all agreed was absolutely, unquestionably wrong. The other was figuratively defended.

 

[Toni]

$47 million. You know, I think one of the things we've learned about this scandal is that white people hate it when minorities commit fraud.

That's what you think you learned?

I would think that you should learn that US citizens hate it when non-citizens commit fraud with US taxpayer money.

None of us approve of fraud committed by citizens either, which should go without saying.

Yet, the hullabaloo over this fraud is both louder and longer lasting than the larger ones during covid. Do you think these are just slower news days?

I think there's a difference you're not seeing. I dunno, I'm getting really, really cynical and distrustful lately so my inclination is to think that you're intentionally evading it. Probably not, but that's where my head is at lately.

Here's the difference: Nobody was excusing or justifying the PPE fraud during covid. Nobody was accusing those who objected to it of blowing it out of proportion, or of being racist, or of only complaining of the fraud because they were prejudiced against the people committing it. Pretty much everyone collectively said "hey, that's fucked up!" and nobody opposed that view. It wasn't something that became partisan.

If everyone in this thread had said "yeah, that's fucked up!" on page one, the thread would probably have only made it to page two. And then only because I suspect Derek would have had some digs for Walz about it. Instead, it was immediately met with a personal insult and politicization of it, handwaved away as "republicans do worse", and accusations that it's only a topic because of racism. Essentially, every possible excuse was trotted out for why nobody should be upset by it.

That's the difference. One of these is something we all agreed was absolutely, unquestionably wrong. The other was figuratively defended.

Well, here’s the thing, Emily: Derec as well as our very own POTUS have harped on the fact that some Somalis were involved in a fraud initiated by a white woman, carefully leaving out the mention of the white woman. In the case of Trump his faux outrage is entirely politically motivated, as is his deployment of ICE to Minnesota because Tim Walz had the temerity to make gentle fun of Trump during the 2024 presidential race. It is not at all difficult to discover that massive amounts of fraud have been committed by people in a lot of other states, including and perhaps especially red states.

The Somali angle was just to rile up his base, with slightly more reality behind it compared with the racist allegations of black immigrants in Ohio eating people’s pets.

 

[laughing dog]

$47 million. You know, I think one of the things we've learned about this scandal is that white people hate it when minorities commit fraud.

That's what you think you learned?

I would think that you should learn that US citizens hate it when non-citizens commit fraud with US taxpayer money.

None of us approve of fraud committed by citizens either, which should go without saying.

Yet, the hullabaloo over this fraud is both louder and longer lasting than the larger ones during covid. Do you think these are just slower news days?

I think there's a difference you're not seeing. I dunno, I'm getting really, really cynical and distrustful lately so my inclination is to think that you're intentionally evading it. Probably not, but that's where my head is at lately.

Here's the difference: Nobody was excusing or justifying the PPE fraud during covid. Nobody was accusing those who objected to it of blowing it out of proportion, or of being racist, or of only complaining of the fraud because they were prejudiced against the people committing it. Pretty much everyone collectively said "hey, that's fucked up!" and nobody opposed that view. It wasn't something that became partisan.

If everyone in this thread had said "yeah, that's fucked up!" on page one, the thread would probably have only made it to page two. And then only because I suspect Derek would have had some digs for Walz about it. Instead, it was immediately met with a personal insult and politicization of it, handwaved away as "republicans do worse", and accusations that it's only a topic because of racism. Essentially, every possible excuse was trotted out for why nobody should be upset by it.

That's the difference. One of these is something we all agreed was absolutely, unquestionably wrong. The other was figuratively defended.

We must live in different realities because NO ONE defended fraud in any sense of the meaning of defend in my reality.

 

[scombrid]

They say fraud is wrong but Trump is president and Rick Scott is a senator and AmWay has been funding the GOP since the 1970s and used that influence to make their type of pyramid legal. Seems they like fraud of the right type by the right people.

 

[Derec]

We must live in different realities because NO ONE defended fraud in any sense of the meaning of defend in my reality.

Toni's position is that it's not really their fault because they are just immigrants who don't know any better. As far as she is concerned, it's all some white people's fault.

 

[Arctish]

We must live in different realities because NO ONE defended fraud in any sense of the meaning of defend in my reality.

Toni's position is that it's not really their fault because they are just immigrants who don't know any better. As far as she is concerned, it's all some white people's fault.

Bullshit.

If you have actual quotes that would support your claim, post them. Because right now it looks like you're posting an Ad Hominem attack on a Strawman Argument you created by misrepresenting what Toni has posted about this particular case and about fraud in general.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

We must live in different realities because NO ONE defended fraud in any sense of the meaning of defend in my reality.

Toni's position is that it's not really their fault because they are just immigrants who don't know any better. As far as she is concerned, it's all some white people's fault.

As opposed to your position which has all the maturity of a South Park episode about Somali pirates and all the nuance of a late night/early morning toilet tweet by Hair Furor.

 

[laughing dog]

We must live in different realities because NO ONE defended fraud in any sense of the meaning of defend in my reality.

Toni's position is that it's not really their fault because they are just immigrants who don't know any better. As far as she is concerned, it's all some white people's fault.

You’re an immigrant. So you didn’t know any better? Is that reason you concocted that malicious slander.

 

[Toni]

We must live in different realities because NO ONE defended fraud in any sense of the meaning of defend in my reality.

Toni's position is that it's not really their fault because they are just immigrants who don't know any better. As far as she is concerned, it's all some white people's fault.

Not at all! My position is that it is absolutely understandable how something ( fraud, a fondness for beer or casseroles or football) spreads in any distinct group. I think almost any ( the qualifier because I dislike absolutes) immigrant cohort is especially vulnerable to exploitation by others and also at misplacing trust and for some groups, desperation and/or anger and fear as they learn to navigate a new country. Did all of the individuals participating in the fraud realize initially that they were participating in a fraud? I don’t know the answer to that but I suspect at least some were not aware of the fraud. During COVID, a lot of people faced very serious food and housing insecurity. Fear can generate anger and can push people to take risks they normally would not. Some people come from cultures where fraud is simply another Tuesday, there is so little trust in government or its institutions. I cannot hazard a guess as to what extent, including zero, any of this played in this particular instance of fraud.

The Somali angle certainly was pushed by Trump, as he did with the false allegations about black immigrants eating pets. Trump was deliberately pushing a narrative about immigrants, especially black immigrants as red meat for his supporters.

This is galling in the face of the fact that there has been much greater fraud in many other states and get this; within the Trump administration and his own family. Remember that the Trump family perpetuated fraud against a children’s cancer charity? So, also deflection/distraction. Like a carnival magician, Trump wants the audience to look at the shiny object in his right hand and to ignore what the left hand is doing.

I am not in any way excusing intentional fraud or the damage it does to society as a whole. I don’t like it. It should not have happened anywhere by anyone, including by Trump, his family and associates and his cabinet and appointees.

Unfortunately we are living under the grip of an elected potus who thinks he’s a mob boss, enabled by a pack of hyenas who are in it for the self aggrandizement and the grift.

 

[Toni]

Why do this? There's no good reason for it when you know damned good and well what was intended and that it was just a typo. Why engage in asshole behavior like this? It's rude and just plain mean. Don't do it.

I do not think it's too much to expect that somebody do a cursory proofread of what they wrote. Especially if that someone is prone to typos and autocorrect fails.
Occasional typos slip through for everyone, sure, but a little effort into reducing them would be appreciated.

Derec, I sincerely am trying to do better. Unfortunately my life consists of an ongoing set of interruptions to any train of thought I get going. More recently this is exacerbated by the very adorable but also very demanding puppy I am providing day care for. So sometimes I am typing while trying to dislodge puppy teeth from my sleeve, my pant leg and occasionally hand or hair. Or running for the door to let the puppy out. Later in the day, fatigue sets in. My eyes get tired. My brain gets tired. My fingers, never particularly clever, get more clumsy. And sometimes I hit send, having forgotten to proofread, and forget that I didn’t proof before send. Lots of time I hit send because something urgent takes my attention and I don’t get back to correct anything.

I am not offended if you want to put me on ignore because you find the errors too tedious to put up with or for any other reason. I’m a big supporter of free choice!

I’m also not offended if you get in a few jibes over my carelessness. I suppose if you want me to get mad, I could try but mostly I think life is too short.

You and I butt heads a lot. That does not mean that I don’t like you—I actually do. I respect that you are not hypocritical in your beliefs. I certainly wish you well.

 

[Derec]

Bullshit.

If you have actual quotes that would support your claim, post them. Because right now it looks like you're posting an Ad Hominem attack on a Strawman Argument you created by misrepresenting what Toni has posted about this particular case and about fraud in general.

Not bullshit. Here is where Toni downplays responsibility of Somalis for fraud, saying that they may not have known it was fraud due to cultural differences. She even thinks that these Somali fraudsters are being "victimized by others".

I am NOT excusing the fraud. I dislike fraud as much as anyone. However I was attempting to explain how a fraud scheme could spread through a community, and in this case, may not have been recognized as fraud by all of those participating. There are significant cultural differences, difficulties experienced by the Somali diaspora as they fled their homeland in the wake of terrible war. I know quite well that immigrant populations are often victimized by others, including,, imo, our immigration process which is tedious and mercurial as the most flattering interpretation.

About Toni's claim that they "may not have been recognized as fraud". Toni, do you also not think that they do not recognize bribing a juror either?

 

[Derec]

You’re an immigrant. So you didn’t know any better? Is that reason you concocted that malicious slander.

No, since there was no slander, malicious or otherwise.

But what is your excuse for your appalling lack of reading comprehension?