Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[ksen]

You mean something like a door bolt shaped injury on the back of the corpse's head?

Recall this particular 2nd degree murder charge requires the prosecution to establish beyond reasonable doubt what was going on in the driver's heart and soul.

I don't think it does. I think all they have to do is prove that his actions showed a willfull disregard for the potential consequences of those actions.

No mind reading involved.

 

[Toni]

This is presuming he can't hold onto anything. If he keeps his position during a stop, his head will whiplash after into the back door.

What I find funny is that we know what happened and we still have people arguing it didn't happen.

If you are bracing yourself against a deceleration you may sway back a little when the deceleration stops. I would be surprising if you braced yourself with sufficient force to throw yourself backward in the opposite direction with enough energy to fracture bones.

One key would be the ability to brace oneself, which Gray did not have.

The other is that by swiftly accelerating/decelerating, a body continues to move in the previous direction until it is stopped.

Does it really make it better if the van accelerated quickly enough to throw Gray against the bolt on the back of the van?

 

[dismal]

Recall this particular 2nd degree murder charge requires the prosecution to establish beyond reasonable doubt what was going on in the driver's heart and soul.

I don't think it does. I think all they have to do is prove that his actions showed a willfull disregard for the potential consequences of those actions.

No mind reading involved.

It's a "depraved heart murder" charge. It requires an "extreme disregard for human life". The phrase "extreme disregard" speaks to what is going on inside the driver's head not the back of the van.

 

[laughing dog]

It does if you are weighted down, you'll pivot forward, then back... you know, like when stopping quickly in a car with your seatbelts on. You'll shift forward, but then back.

Seriously? You're an engineer and you're going to argue braking can throw someone against the back of a vehicle?

Back when I went to school they still taught "a body in motion tends to stay in motion". If Freddie is inside frictionless van and Freddie and van are both traveling forward at 30 mph when van brakes Freddie will still tend to be moving forward until acted on by front wall of van.

If someone is facing the rear of the van, then a forward moving van that stops will thrown that person's back towards the front. Another term for that is "backwards". Not that any of this makes a difference to the actual issues at hand. Mr. Gray suffered his injury in a police custody while he was not properly secured in the van.

 

[ksen]

I don't think it does. I think all they have to do is prove that his actions showed a willfull disregard for the potential consequences of those actions.

No mind reading involved.

It's a "depraved heart murder" charge. It requires an "extreme disregard for human life". The phrase "extreme disregard" speaks to what is going on inside the driver's head not the back of the van.

Does it?

I think showing that the driver disregarded repeated pleas for medical help while taking a bound prisoner on a rough ride that the city has had to payout millions in damages for in the past after they made other prisoners paraplegics should be enough.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Seriously? You're an engineer and you're going to argue braking can throw someone against the back of a vehicle?

Back when I went to school they still taught "a body in motion tends to stay in motion". If Freddie is inside frictionless van and Freddie and van are both traveling forward at 30 mph when van brakes Freddie will still tend to be moving forward until acted on by front wall of van.

If someone is facing the rear of the van, then a forward moving van that stops will thrown that person's back towards the front. Another term for that is "backwards". Not that any of this makes a difference to the actual issues at hand. Mr. Gray suffered his injury in a police custody while he was not properly secured in the van.

But then the injury would be on the front of the body. Is that consistent with the report? I'm not sure. I think we'll have to wait for more information.

 

[laughing dog]

If someone is facing the rear of the van, then a forward moving van that stops will thrown that person's back towards the front. Another term for that is "backwards". Not that any of this makes a difference to the actual issues at hand. Mr. Gray suffered his injury in a police custody while he was not properly secured in the van.

But then the injury would be on the front of the body. Is that consistent with the report? I'm not sure. I think we'll have to wait for more information.

Why would the injury be in the front if the person is thrown with his/her back towards the bolt?

 

[dismal]

Does it really make it better if the van accelerated quickly enough to throw Gray against the bolt on the back of the van?

It does not make it better but it raises the question of whether it's plausible for a van that size to accelerate that quickly. If they have some witnesses saying they saw the van going 0 to 80mph in 4 seconds in some parking lot or going 50 mph in reverse and slamming on the brakes it may be no problem at all.

 

[coloradoatheist]

But then the injury would be on the front of the body. Is that consistent with the report? I'm not sure. I think we'll have to wait for more information.

Why would the injury be in the front if the person is thrown with his/her back towards the bolt?

You said they were facing the back of the van which is normal. So a sudden shift toward the back of the van while facing backwards would be going head first into the back of the van.

 

[laughing dog]

Why would the injury be in the front if the person is thrown with his/her back towards the bolt?

You said they were facing the back of the van which is normal. So a sudden shift toward the back of the van while facing backwards would be going head first into the back of the van.

No. If the van is moving forward and it stops, the person is thrown towards the front of the van.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Does it really make it better if the van accelerated quickly enough to throw Gray against the bolt on the back of the van?

It does not make it better but it raises the question of whether it's plausible for a van that size to accelerate that quickly. If they have some witnesses saying they saw the van going 0 to 80mph in 4 seconds in some parking lot or going 50 mph in reverse and slamming on the brakes it may be no problem at all.

You mean an empty van with a V-8 engine does not have the power to accelerate enough to throw an innocent man (who is riding unsecured and with hands and feet shackled) against the rear wall of the van?

I will get a similar van and we can shackle you up in the same manner as Mr. Grey and test out and see who's theory is right.

 

[dismal]

It's a "depraved heart murder" charge. It requires an "extreme disregard for human life". The phrase "extreme disregard" speaks to what is going on inside the driver's head not the back of the van.

Does it?

I think showing that the driver disregarded repeated pleas for medical help while taking a bound prisoner on a rough ride that the city has had to payout millions in damages for in the past after they made other prisoners paraplegics should be enough.

You're assuming away the case. They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt he was given a rough ride and that not giving him medical attention was "extreme disregard".

 

[laughing dog]

Does it?

I think showing that the driver disregarded repeated pleas for medical help while taking a bound prisoner on a rough ride that the city has had to payout millions in damages for in the past after they made other prisoners paraplegics should be enough.

You're assuming away the case. They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt he was given a rough ride and that not giving him medical attention was "extreme disregard".

Given what is known to date, that seems pretty much like a slam dunk.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It does not make it better but it raises the question of whether it's plausible for a van that size to accelerate that quickly. If they have some witnesses saying they saw the van going 0 to 80mph in 4 seconds in some parking lot or going 50 mph in reverse and slamming on the brakes it may be no problem at all.

You mean an empty van with a V-8 engine does not have the power to accelerate enough to throw an innocent man (who is riding unsecured and with hands and feet shackled) against the rear wall of the van?

I will get a similar van and we can shackle you up in the same manner as Mr. Grey and test out and see who's theory is right.

Maybe Mythbusters will do a segment on it, but I don't think they do a controversial subject like that. But right now the burden of proof will be on the police officers to offer a scenerio that's plausible.

 

[ksen]

Does it?

I think showing that the driver disregarded repeated pleas for medical help while taking a bound prisoner on a rough ride that the city has had to payout millions in damages for in the past after they made other prisoners paraplegics should be enough.

You're assuming away the case. They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt he was given a rough ride and that not giving him medical attention was "extreme disregard".

Which has nothing to do with mind reading or having to know the driver's heart, or whatever it was you were claiming.

 

[dismal]

You're assuming away the case. They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt he was given a rough ride and that not giving him medical attention was "extreme disregard".

Which has nothing to do with mind reading or having to know the driver's heart, or whatever it was you were claiming.

Depraved Heart Murder has nothing to do with what is in the alleged murderer's heart? Odd.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Which has nothing to do with mind reading or having to know the driver's heart, or whatever it was you were claiming.

Depraved Heart Murder has nothing to do with what is in the alleged murderer's heart? Odd.

Correct. I posted a definition and links to the legal precedence in this thread. Perhaps you might review it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Depraved Heart Murder has nothing to do with what is in the alleged murderer's heart? Odd.

Correct. I posted a definition and links to the legal precedence in this thread. Perhaps you might review it.

And as dismal pointed out, normally the prosecution would have to prove that he was given a rough ride which would fall under the depraved heart. If Gray has multiple scratches, bruises, broken bones from other than the one fatal accident it would show it to. The defense will be that they drove along and gray tried to stand up or tried to escape and he fell during that. The defense will have it's work cut out for them.

 

[dismal]

Depraved Heart Murder has nothing to do with what is in the alleged murderer's heart? Odd.

Correct. I posted a definition and links to the legal precedence in this thread. Perhaps you might review it.

Well, sure, I should always come here for expert legal analysis. Why would I read all those so called experts out there who keep saying this will be a very difficult case to prove?

It's not like you guys have ever been wrong before on these sorts of cases.

 

[Trausti]

Correct. I posted a definition and links to the legal precedence in this thread. Perhaps you might review it.

Well, sure, I should always come here for expert legal analysis. Why would I read all those so called experts out there who keep saying this will be a very difficult case to prove?

It's not like you guys have ever been wrong before on these sorts of cases.

How is this not a difficult case to prove? The burden of proof falls on the prosecution, not the defendants. It's for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the driver acted with a depraved heart. Good luck with that.