Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Jimmy Higgins]

I bet the victim would be saying the exact same thing if he weren't dead and all.

Goodness, your emotion has pretty much suffocated rational thought.

I know, it is getting the most of me. The officers look to have possibly been prematurely charged with a crime. Your dedication to pointing this out is making me teary eyed. Just like the victim would probably have gotten all teary eyed about all of this if he wasn't dead.

I understand that you put a lot of appreciation in to due process. So much effort that you somehow have seemed to of forgotten about some other person who had the same rights, well, until he died.

 

[Trausti]

We have a court system to weigh the evidence not opinions. One of the points is whether the knife was legal or not.

If Freddie Gray went on trial for having an illegal knife a jury would have to weigh whether he had an illegal knife.

If a Police Officer goes on trial for illegally arresting someone with a knife the jury does not have to weigh whether it was an illegal knife. The jury has to weigh whether the officer acted in good faith.

Officers can arrest people for things that turn out later not to be crimes. It happens all the time. If you get arrested for something and beat the rap the officer who arrested you does not get sent to jail for false arrest.

Not really. Whether the knife was illegal would be a matter for the court. Issues of law are for the court. Issues of fact are for the jury. That's why the bike cop is moving to dismiss the charges now. Not for the jury to decide.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I bet the victim would be saying the exact same thing if he weren't dead and all.

Mistakes by one group don't justify mistakes by another group. The DA should have gotten the process right.

No shit, really? I'm just pointing out that some people here seem to only care about that and not the other set of mistakes that killed a man.

 

[dismal]

I bet the victim would be saying the exact same thing if he weren't dead and all.

Goodness, your emotion has pretty much suffocated rational thought.

He's just using Baltimore Prosecutor logic.

Someone killed Freddie Gray. These people are someone. Therefore these people killed Freddie Gray.

 

[dismal]

If Freddie Gray went on trial for having an illegal knife a jury would have to weigh whether he had an illegal knife.

If a Police Officer goes on trial for illegally arresting someone with a knife the jury does not have to weigh whether it was an illegal knife. The jury has to weigh whether the officer acted in good faith.

Officers can arrest people for things that turn out later not to be crimes. It happens all the time. If you get arrested for something and beat the rap the officer who arrested you does not get sent to jail for false arrest.

Not really. Whether the knife was illegal would be a matter for the court. Issues of law are for the court. Issues of fact are for the jury. That's why the bike cop is moving to dismiss the charges now. Not for the jury to decide.

I think you're missing the point. Even if the knife is legal it is not a crime to arrest someone for having a knife that later turns out to be legal.

Just like it's not a crime to arrest someone you think may be drunk driving if they get down to the station and blow a .07.

 

[Trausti]

Goodness, your emotion has pretty much suffocated rational thought.

I know, it is getting the most of me. The officers look to have possibly been prematurely charged with a crime. Your dedication to pointing this out is making me teary eyed. Just like the victim would probably have gotten all teary eyed about all of this if he wasn't dead.

I understand that you put a lot of appreciation in to due process. So much effort that you somehow have seemed to of forgotten about some other person who had the same rights, well, until he died.

Which is why emotion must be removed the equation. Emotion creates a high chance of error. If someone is to face the peril of trial and punishment, that consequence should not result from how emotional people feel about the alleged accused or victim.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Mistakes by one group don't justify mistakes by another group. The DA should have gotten the process right.

No shit, really? I'm just pointing out that some people here seem to only care about that and not the other set of mistakes that killed a man.

So ... your complaint is that the lawyer is more interested in talking about the stuff that the other lawyers are doing?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

If Freddie Gray went on trial for having an illegal knife a jury would have to weigh whether he had an illegal knife.

If a Police Officer goes on trial for illegally arresting someone with a knife the jury does not have to weigh whether it was an illegal knife. The jury has to weigh whether the officer acted in good faith.

Officers can arrest people for things that turn out later not to be crimes. It happens all the time. If you get arrested for something and beat the rap the officer who arrested you does not get sent to jail for false arrest.

Not really. Whether the knife was illegal would be a matter for the court. Issues of law are for the court. Issues of fact are for the jury. That's why the bike cop is moving to dismiss the charges now. Not for the jury to decide.

And a smart move legally.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I think you're missing the point. Even if the knife is legal it is not a crime to arrest someone for having a knife that later turns out to be legal.

Backing away from the trial aspect and to the larger picture, getting arrested for something that isn't a crime is probably something fueling the animosity with the police. I know it is doing so here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No shit, really? I'm just pointing out that some people here seem to only care about that and not the other set of mistakes that killed a man.

So ... your complaint is that the lawyer is more interested in talking about the stuff that the other lawyers are doing?

Exclusively interested while earlier trying their best to indicate they couldn't be responsible for the man's death.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I know, it is getting the most of me. The officers look to have possibly been prematurely charged with a crime. Your dedication to pointing this out is making me teary eyed. Just like the victim would probably have gotten all teary eyed about all of this if he wasn't dead.

I understand that you put a lot of appreciation in to due process. So much effort that you somehow have seemed to of forgotten about some other person who had the same rights, well, until he died.

Which is why emotion must be removed the equation. Emotion creates a high chance of error. If someone is to face the peril of trial and punishment, that consequence should not result from how emotional people feel about the alleged accused or victim.

But you want emotional people on the jury, no? As a lawyer, don't you generally want people who can identify with your client?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I know, it is getting the most of me. The officers look to have possibly been prematurely charged with a crime. Your dedication to pointing this out is making me teary eyed. Just like the victim would probably have gotten all teary eyed about all of this if he wasn't dead.

I understand that you put a lot of appreciation in to due process. So much effort that you somehow have seemed to of forgotten about some other person who had the same rights, well, until he died.

Which is why emotion must be removed the equation. Emotion creates a high chance of error. If someone is to face the peril of trial and punishment, that consequence should not result from how emotional people feel about the alleged accused or victim.

God bless America!!!

 

[whichphilosophy]

If Freddie Gray went on trial for having an illegal knife a jury would have to weigh whether he had an illegal knife.

If a Police Officer goes on trial for illegally arresting someone with a knife the jury does not have to weigh whether it was an illegal knife. The jury has to weigh whether the officer acted in good faith.

Officers can arrest people for things that turn out later not to be crimes. It happens all the time. If you get arrested for something and beat the rap the officer who arrested you does not get sent to jail for false arrest.

Not really. Whether the knife was illegal would be a matter for the court. Issues of law are for the court. Issues of fact are for the jury. That's why the bike cop is moving to dismiss the charges now. Not for the jury to decide.

The facts are to be weighed to enable the jury to determine whether the accused broke the law. For instance did the actions of the accused break the law etc. hence a verdict of guilty etc.

 

[Trausti]

Which is why emotion must be removed the equation. Emotion creates a high chance of error. If someone is to face the peril of trial and punishment, that consequence should not result from how emotional people feel about the alleged accused or victim.

But you want emotional people on the jury, no? As a lawyer, don't you generally want people who can identify with your client?

Depends on who you represent. Both sides are involved with selecting the jury. They can use a peremptory challenge to strike a juror or remove a juror for cause. If a potential juror says "I don't trust cops," the court would likely dismiss them. And appellate courts can and do reverse trial court verdicts where it appears the verdict was based on inflaming the jury's emotions.

 

[dismal]

Not really. Whether the knife was illegal would be a matter for the court. Issues of law are for the court. Issues of fact are for the jury. That's why the bike cop is moving to dismiss the charges now. Not for the jury to decide.

The facts are to be weighed to enable the jury to determine whether the accused broke the law. For instance did the actions of the accused break the law etc. hence a verdict of guilty etc.

The accused are not accused of having an illegal knife. The accused are accused of false arrest, murder two, etc. There are specific elements to these crimes that must be proved.

 

[RavenSky]

True. As long as the cops roughed up the guy because they thought he had an illegal knife on him, it is kosher.

Evidence that the bike cops "roughed him up"? As far as I remember, one of the curious things about this case was lack of visible injuries on Grey, which is inconsistent with him being "roughed up" before he was even loaded into the van.

How about you provide evidence that the prosecutor brought the charges in the time and manner she did for "political reasons".

 

[Trausti]

Not really. Whether the knife was illegal would be a matter for the court. Issues of law are for the court. Issues of fact are for the jury. That's why the bike cop is moving to dismiss the charges now. Not for the jury to decide.

The facts are to be weighed to enable the jury to determine whether the accused broke the law. For instance did the actions of the accused break the law etc. hence a verdict of guilty etc.

It's about the elements of the crime. If there is insufficient evidence to support an element, there is no need for a jury. The court can just dismiss it. Should the court decide that the knife was illegal per Baltimore ordinance, that's that.

 

[dismal]

Evidence that the bike cops "roughed him up"? As far as I remember, one of the curious things about this case was lack of visible injuries on Grey, which is inconsistent with him being "roughed up" before he was even loaded into the van.

How about you provide evidence that the prosecutor brought the charges in the time and manner she did for "political reasons".

Why do you think she brought charges before the investigation was complete?

 

[RavenSky]

Not because he was running, because he was running from them. In a high crime area. We are not talking about police stopping joggers just because they are running.

2. What was their probable cause for chasing and searching him?

Not probable cause but reasonable suspicion. Probable cause was (supposedly) given when they found the knife.
See Illinois vs. Wardlow. I tend to agree with the ruling. If you run when you see the police, they have reasonable suspicion to stop and search you.

And how do we know that Freddie Gray was running "from them"? Maybe he was late for breakfast.

 

[Arctish]

Sources: Baltimore police investigation doesn't support some of prosecution's charges

This is why you don't rush things. Take your time to get it right. It hints that little effort was made to do a reasonable inquiry before filing charges. Teachable moment here.

What makes you think she didn't? Some teachable moments conclude with the message "the law is unclear" or "it depends on how the courts interpret this phrase", or "different courts have issued different rulings, but this one supports our position so we can use it as a basis to build our case".