Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Deepak]

Ricochet into the back of the vehicle? <ROTFL>

Being forcefully thrown? I assume you mean by the cops--it would be pretty hard for them to throw him against the back of the vehicle.

Acceleration? Large vehicles usually have pretty poor acceleration.

Poor in what sense? A Ford E350 has a 0-60 time that's about on par with a 60k 3.5L Mercedes Benz's 0-75. I rented one when I was hauling bricks to make a barbecue in my old place. Honestly, if that thing had an A-Team paint job I wouldn't have minded cruising around in it.

Even if the knife is legal it is not a crime to arrest someone for having a knife that later turns out to be legal.

Probably cause would have to exist apart from simply owning a knife that may or may not be legal (a la DeBerry).

Except we have different charges for what the intent was. Normally for murder you would have to show that their intent was to kill the person where if it was a rough ride the intent would be to hurt or scare the person.

If the intent was to harm him and not necessarily kill him but he had a preexisting condition that turned the harming into a killing then that would be sufficient to meet the requirement for mens rea. If someone has hemophilia, gets punched in the nose, and bleeds to death before medical intervention can provide help an argument from the aggressor that they only meant to injure would be laughed at on its face.

 

[whichphilosophy]

If the intent was to harm him and not necessarily kill him but he had a preexisting condition that turned the harming into a killing then that would be sufficient to meet the requirement for mens rea. If someone has hemophilia, gets punched in the nose, and bleeds to death before medical intervention can provide help an argument from the aggressor that they only meant to injure would be laughed at on its face.

Each case will take into account the individual circumstances.
The question would be did he intentionally and knowingly cause the death. Did he know of the pre-existing medical condition.

 

[RavenSky]

If the intent was to harm him and not necessarily kill him but he had a preexisting condition that turned the harming into a killing then that would be sufficient to meet the requirement for mens rea. If someone has hemophilia, gets punched in the nose, and bleeds to death before medical intervention can provide help an argument from the aggressor that they only meant to injure would be laughed at on its face.

Each case will take into account the individual circumstances.
The question would be did he intentionally and knowingly cause the death. Did he know of the pre-existing medical condition.

Apparently your two page non-responsive derail was so you could completely ignore the fact that "intent" is NOT required under "second degree murder".

 

[Deepak]

If the intent was to harm him and not necessarily kill him but he had a preexisting condition that turned the harming into a killing then that would be sufficient to meet the requirement for mens rea. If someone has hemophilia, gets punched in the nose, and bleeds to death before medical intervention can provide help an argument from the aggressor that they only meant to injure would be laughed at on its face.

Each case will take into account the individual circumstances.
The question would be did he intentionally and knowingly cause the death. Did he know of the pre-existing medical condition.

Nope. The entire point of eggshell skull is that the individual who intended to harm is accountable for what actually happened to the victim, and not what they expected to happen to a stout individual.

Heyward v Ridley.

 

[Derec]

Nope. The entire point of eggshell skull is that the individual who intended to harm is accountable for what actually happened to the victim, and not what they expected to happen to a stout individual.

No. Intent matters. Otherwise you could not differentiate between involuntary manslaughter and premeditated murder.

Heyward v Ridley.

Not much info (not even location) that I could find on this case, except that it was manslaughter and from 1908. Not really good support for the 2nd degree murder charge.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Each case will take into account the individual circumstances.
The question would be did he intentionally and knowingly cause the death. Did he know of the pre-existing medical condition.

Nope. The entire point of eggshell skull is that the individual who intended to harm is accountable for what actually happened to the victim, and not what they expected to happen to a stout individual.

Heyward v Ridley.

This is called constructive manslaughter but in English Law not Murder. Death from fright alone, caused by an illegal act such as a threat of violence, was enough to sustain a charge of manslaughter. As I said the sentence would vary according as every case is looked at according to its own circumstances. In some circumstances the sentence could be almost as severe as for murder.

The entire point of the eggshell skull is what happened as a result of the actions (where there should not be a break in the chain of causation).

 

[Derec]

Apparently your two page non-responsive derail was so you could completely ignore the fact that "intent" is NOT required under "second degree murder".

And you are ignoring the fact that the test case for "depraved heart" involved a victim who's been shot by the perp, which is not even close to the rough ride. The Prince concert grandstanding prosecutor will not be able to prove this to any unbiased jury.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Each case will take into account the individual circumstances.
The question would be did he intentionally and knowingly cause the death. Did he know of the pre-existing medical condition.

Apparently your two page non-responsive derail was so you could completely ignore the fact that "intent" is NOT required under "second degree murder".

I didn't say that intent is an ingredient. Intentional, on the spur of the moment or involuntary is something the court will have to decide. The prosecutor can move that intent was an ingredient but he/she would need to prove this in the court and not the media.

 

[Derec]

Poor in what sense? A Ford E350 has a 0-60 time that's about on par with a 60k 3.5L Mercedes Benz's 0-75.

First of all, which Benz? An E350 - which would be fitting? Acceleration depends on more than price tag and engine displacement. Also, the 60-75 time is is going to take longer than the previous 15 mph delta due to higher gear and more drag. What is really important is the initial acceleration from 0.

I rented one when I was hauling bricks to make a barbecue in my old place. Honestly, if that thing had an A-Team paint job I wouldn't have minded cruising around in it.

I wouldn't mind the Top Gear one I posted earlier. Although there wouldn't be much room left for the bricks.

Probably cause would have to exist apart from simply owning a knife that may or may not be legal (a la DeBerry).

How is that not probable cause?

If the intent was to harm him and not necessarily kill him but he had a preexisting condition that turned the harming into a killing then that would be sufficient to meet the requirement for mens rea. If someone has hemophilia, gets punched in the nose, and bleeds to death before medical intervention can provide help an argument from the aggressor that they only meant to injure would be laughed at on its face.

It would likely be manslaughter.

 

[Derec]

Marilyn Mosby, the much criticized prosecutor, took stage with Prince at concern in honor of Grey.
Marilyn Mosby under fire again after appearance at Prince gig

 

[arkirk]

Marilyn Mosby, the much criticized prosecutor, took stage with Prince at concern in honor of Grey.
Marilyn Mosby under fire again after appearance at Prince gig

Come on, Derec..this is bullshit. I think you don't like her because she is black. You appear to be running on automatic.

 

[Deepak]

Nope. The entire point of eggshell skull is that the individual who intended to harm is accountable for what actually happened to the victim, and not what they expected to happen to a stout individual.

Heyward v Ridley.

This is called constructive manslaughter but in English Law not Murder. Death from fright alone, caused by an illegal act such as a threat of violence, was enough to sustain a charge of manslaughter. As I said the sentence would vary according as every case is looked at according to its own circumstances. In some circumstances the sentence could be almost as severe as for murder.

The entire point of the eggshell skull is what happened as a result of the actions (where there should not be a break in the chain of causation).

The principles in that case apply even though the specific charge was different.

I don't really understand the chain of causation as you're referring to here - are you claiming that Gray's spine would have spontaneously broken? Or that his spine was broken before the police apprehended him?

No what needs to be established here is that they intended to do harm by giving Gray a rough ride (not that they intended to kill him). If they did intend to do harm, and that action caused his death then eggshell skull applies and their intent to harm is sufficient to convict.

The only other transpiring of events is that his spine was broken when he was apprehended and they made multiple stops in the van before getting medical help.

Seems like a dilly of a pickle to me.

 

[Trausti]

Marilyn Mosby, the much criticized prosecutor, took stage with Prince at concern in honor of Grey.
Marilyn Mosby under fire again after appearance at Prince gig

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BxFlmb6S6E[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Deepak]

First of all, which Benz? An E350 - which would be fitting? Acceleration depends on more than price tag and engine displacement. Also, the 60-75 time is is going to take longer than the previous 15 mph delta due to higher gear and more drag. What is really important is the initial acceleration from 0.

Both are E350s. As an aside you can (usually) infer this from the engine size as that's how the Merc naming scheme works. Ditto BMW, where the first digit is the series, and the second two denote the engine - ex. a 318i is a 3 series with a 1.8L engine. Both are known to have some wiggle room, such as the 328i and 335i both having the same 3.0L engine with the latter being turbocharged.

And the point here was that the Ford E350 van is not anemic, not that it would be entering touring car races. Rent one yourself if you don't believe me.

How is that not probable cause?

For the same reason that cops can't stop you for wearing jeans on the off chance that they're counterfeit or for listening to an MP3 player on the off chance they're pirated. If carrying a knife is legal then that isn't sufficient grounds for them to search him to determine whether his knife is actually compliant. The reason the search in DeBerry was concluded to be legit was because Illinois banned all firearms, the call that police received, and the 'ominous action' perpetrated by DeBerry taken as a whole. In an open-carry state you can actually walk down the street as a federally prohibited person while open-carrying an illegal firearm and the only reason you'd be arrested is because you consented to a search or committed another crime while doing so. The gun itself would not be sufficient grounds for a stop or a search because carrying a gun as an activity itself is legal.

It would likely be manslaughter.

Nope - this would apply to things like drunk driving or scaring someone where harm was not intended but resulted. If harm was intended, but just not as much as happened then that's not going to reduce the crime.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It would likely be manslaughter.

Nope - this would apply to things like drunk driving or scaring someone where harm was not intended but resulted. If harm was intended, but just not as much as happened then that's not going to reduce the crime.

Your honor, I only stabbed him to cause pain and suffering. I didn't mean to kill him.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Marilyn Mosby, the much criticized prosecutor, took stage with Prince at concern in honor of Grey.
Marilyn Mosby under fire again after appearance at Prince gig

Alright, from the get-go, it looks pretty bad for the officers. Alright... so blame the victim's record. Hmm... that isn't catching. Apparently getting out of a police van near dead is a hot button for some people. Lets try physics, and say he could have possibly hit that thing at that angle, without doing it on purpose. Hmm... not getting the legs I thought it would. Well, only one last thing we can do... blame the prosecutor! Sure, a man is dead, but if we can make the prosecutor look bad, then maybe, just maybe this whole thing goes away because...

...why are we arguing like this again?

 

[RavenSky]

Apparently your two page non-responsive derail was so you could completely ignore the fact that "intent" is NOT required under "second degree murder".

And you are ignoring the fact that the test case for "depraved heart" involved a victim who's been shot by the perp, which is not even close to the rough ride. The Prince concert grandstanding prosecutor will not be able to prove this to any unbiased jury.

"The test case"? There has been only one case in all of Maryland's history that has been prosecuted under this charge? Or has there only been one such case linked to in this thread, and since it does not match the OP case 100% you feel comfortable saying it doesn't fit?

As for "Prince concert grandstanding"... interesting choice of slur, and by "interesting" I mean you aren't fooling anyone.

 

[RavenSky]

Apparently your two page non-responsive derail was so you could completely ignore the fact that "intent" is NOT required under "second degree murder".

I didn't say that intent is an ingredient. Intentional, on the spur of the moment or involuntary is something the court will have to decide. The prosecutor can move that intent was an ingredient but he/she would need to prove this in the court and not the media.

You aren't even making any sense. No, it is not for the court to decide whether the statute must include the component of "intent" or not. The statute already does that, and the second degree murder charge does NOT include a requirement of "intent".

What the court will decide is whether the evidence that will be presented by the prosecutor supports the actual definition of the charge.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I didn't say that intent is an ingredient. Intentional, on the spur of the moment or involuntary is something the court will have to decide. The prosecutor can move that intent was an ingredient but he/she would need to prove this in the court and not the media.

You aren't even making any sense. No, it is not for the court to decide whether the statute must include the component of "intent" or not. The statute already does that, and the second degree murder charge does NOT include a requirement of "intent".

What the court will decide is whether the evidence that will be presented by the prosecutor supports the actual definition of the charge.

The last sentence is perfectly correct, which is what I meant all along. This is distinct from the Media doing this job or others assuming.

Depraved heart is an easier form of prosecution because a clear intent does not have be proven. The reckless engagement in conduct that creates a grave risk to the person and subsequently causes the death would infer intent.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Apparently your two page non-responsive derail was so you could completely ignore the fact that "intent" is NOT required under "second degree murder".

And you are ignoring the fact that the test case for "depraved heart" involved a victim who's been shot by the perp, which is not even close to the rough ride. The Prince concert grandstanding prosecutor will not be able to prove this to any unbiased jury.

It depends on the sequence of events and whether there was intent to kill or the person was shot as a result of the offender's reckless disregard.. Which case is this?