Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

And you think that would help? Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Brought peace?

 

[Shadowy Man]

No he didn't.
But your inability to read posts that don't match your ideology means you probably can't read Zoid with comprehension.
Tom

The quote (which you conveniently clipped from your response) is "So basically, they tried not killing civilians. Didn’t work. So now they’re trying this. " My description is not inaccurate.

the logic is simple:

I tried not smoking cigarettes. Didn’t work. So now I smoke cigarettes.

Perhaps it was a miscommunication by Dr Z, but a plain reading leads to laughing dog’s conclusion.

 

[Bomb#20]

The Middle East problem needs to be resolved based on the current situation, not based on whose ancestors did what to whom.

True, which is why the issues there appear so intractable. Like it or not, people tend to want "fair" outcomes which tends to make who did what to whom seem important.

People champion fairness until they gain from the inequity. With Israel and Palestine, it's deemed acceptable to ask Palestinians to overlook their heritage, yet suggesting that Israel forget its roots makes you a supporter of children being beheaded, missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians and all sorts of self projecting rubbish.

The heck are you talking about? Everybody who says the Israelis should shut down their illegal settlements, pull back to the 1967 borders, give up on "Judea and Samaria" once and for all, and get serious about implementing a 2-state solution, is suggesting that Israel overlook its heritage and forget its roots. That's pretty much the entire U.S. population except the extremists who think Israel should just surrender.

 

[Bomb#20]

If you admit that killing 1000s of civilians doesn’t solve the problem, why do you defend such a policy?

I don't. I just said I am pro Israel. They're not tryning to kill civilians. Hamas is.

While the IDF is not trying to kill civilians, they are much more proficient and prolific in that regard than Hamas has ever been.

But you do defend that policy. Every time you post the functional equivalent of "It's Hamas's fault", you defend a policy you admit will not solve the problem.

Does your reasoning cut both ways? Every time somebody posts the functional equivalent of "It's Israel's fault", is he or she defending Hamas's policy of targeting noncombatants?

 

[Bomb#20]

I’ll rephrase the question your response completely avoided. How does killing 1000s of civilians of any ethnicity or nationality solve the problem of extremists of any ethnicity or nationality causing death and destruction?

It doesn't. That's why Hamas should stop trying to get civilians killed. IDF is trying to avoid killing civilians. This is a one sided conflict. IDF are clearly the good guys and Hamas are clearly the bad guys.

The solution is if Hamas just stop being horrible people and stop trying to get civilians killed. Hamas are doing their damndest to make sure both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are killed. If Hamas stops with this then no cilivians will get killed.

This cycle of violence was going on long before Hamas even existed. Everything you say about Hamas was once equally true of the PLO. Then the PLO just stopped being horrible people and stopped trying to get civilians killed. This did not lead to no civilians getting killed; it led to the rise of Hamas as the new face of extremism. If Hamas just stop being horrible people and stop trying to get civilians killed then some new gang of thugs will take over the mission of murdering Jews. That's not a solution.

 

[Arctish]

The Middle East problem needs to be resolved based on the current situation, not based on whose ancestors did what to whom.

True, which is why the issues there appear so intractable. Like it or not, people tend to want "fair" outcomes which tends to make who did what to whom seem important.

People champion fairness until they gain from the inequity. With Israel and Palestine, it's deemed acceptable to ask Palestinians to overlook their heritage, yet suggesting that Israel forget its roots makes you a supporter of children being beheaded, missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians and all sorts of self projecting rubbish.

The heck are you talking about? Everybody who says the Israelis should shut down their illegal settlements, pull back to the 1967 borders, give up on "Judea and Samaria" once and for all, and get serious about implementing a 2-state solution, is suggesting that Israel overlook its heritage and forget its roots. That's pretty much the entire U.S. population except the extremists who think Israel should just surrender.

Do you mean Jewish heritage or Israel's heritage? They aren't the same thing, no matter how much people want to conflate them.

Israel's heritage only goes back to 1948. Jewish heritage in the Middle East and elsewhere goes back thousands of years.

IMO everybody who says the Israelis should shut down their illegal settlements, pull back to the 1967 borders, give up on annexing "Judea and Samaria" without the consent of the Palestinian people living there, and get serious about implementing a 2-state solution, is suggesting a pragmatic means to achieving a peaceful end to the conflict.

Also IMO, anyone who refuses to even consider Israel shutting down its illegal settlements, pulling its civilians back inside its internationally recognized borders, stop trying to annex "Judea and Samaria" without the consent of the Judeans and Samaritans, and get serious about a Two-State or Three-State or Any-Number-of-States solution, is far more interested in conquest than they are in peace, and are willing to sacrifice the safety of Jews today for the opportunity for Israel to grab even more land and resources tomorrow.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I’ll rephrase the question your response completely avoided. How does killing 1000s of civilians of any ethnicity or nationality solve the problem of extremists of any ethnicity or nationality causing death and destruction?

It doesn't. That's why Hamas should stop trying to get civilians killed. IDF is trying to avoid killing civilians. This is a one sided conflict. IDF are clearly the good guys and Hamas are clearly the bad guys.

The solution is if Hamas just stop being horrible people and stop trying to get civilians killed. Hamas are doing their damndest to make sure both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are killed. If Hamas stops with this then no cilivians will get killed.

This cycle of violence was going on long before Hamas even existed. Everything you say about Hamas was once equally true of the PLO. Then the PLO just stopped being horrible people and stopped trying to get civilians killed. This did not lead to no civilians getting killed; it led to the rise of Hamas as the new face of extremism. If Hamas just stop being horrible people and stop trying to get civilians killed then some new gang of thugs will take over the mission of murdering Jews. That's not a solution.

Sure. But I think Israel has gone way beyond what is reasonable when it comes to being good neighbours. As long as the dominant story among Palestinians is that all Jews need to be exterminated and all their lands made Arab, then there's no reason for Israel to cooperate with them. 7/10 the Palestinians proved that they can't be trusted to control themselves enough to make peace possible, (if they're incharge of anything).

It's not a question of killing civilians. Hamas has created an environment where they need to be removed by force. And if they hide among Palestinian civlians, to make it harder for Israel to attack, then the blood Palestinian civlians is on the hands of Hamas. They don't need to hide among civilians. Hamas chose this tactic. I don't give a shit why they're doing it. All I know is that that makes them responsible for Palestinians civilians dying. Add to that that they have taken Israeli civilians as hostages. That's absolutely insane. How could Israel possibly just let that slide? If they give into any Hamas demands they're only emboldening Hamas to take hostages again. That's a non-starter. I can't see how it's possible for Israel to act in any other way than they're doing now. At this point it's do or die for Israel. If they, at this point, try to appease the Palestinians they're doomed as a nation. They need to be tough now.

 

[Gospel]

The Middle East problem needs to be resolved based on the current situation, not based on whose ancestors did what to whom.

True, which is why the issues there appear so intractable. Like it or not, people tend to want "fair" outcomes which tends to make who did what to whom seem important.

People champion fairness until they gain from the inequity. With Israel and Palestine, it's deemed acceptable to ask Palestinians to overlook their heritage, yet suggesting that Israel forget its roots makes you a supporter of children being beheaded, missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians and all sorts of self projecting rubbish.

The heck are you talking about? Everybody who says the Israelis should shut down their illegal settlements, pull back to the 1967 borders, give up on "Judea and Samaria" once and for all, and get serious about implementing a 2-state solution, is suggesting that Israel overlook its heritage and forget its roots. That's pretty much the entire U.S. population except the extremists who think Israel should just surrender.

The 'everybody' you mention isn't present in this thread to engage in our discussion. My comments are directed towards the arguments of individuals here who unwaveringly support the state of Israel and use the experiences of average Jewish people as a defense mechanism meat shield for their support of Zionism.

 

[Gospel]

I must state unequivocally that Jews have an inherent right to exist. However, the establishment of the State of Israel was a end of the colonial era screw up with far-reaching consequences, affecting both Jews and Arabs with a legacy of conflict and bloodshed that seems destined to continue indefinitely. True change will only come when all involved parties acknowledge this historical screw up and work together towards a resolution. The United Nations ought acknowledge the hot potato they inherited (and played a role in) from the jump & take responsibility. Sitting on their hands and demanding Israel do this and that is just not going to cut it. They need to get boots on the ground and fight off both sides if they have to. This is their circus.

IMO a single state solution is the only option. to me, the Jewish people should have organically remerged in the region without the stupid wigs waving toilet paper around. Their butt wipes always leave a trail of poop.

 

[laughing dog]

If you admit that killing 1000s of civilians doesn’t solve the problem, why do you defend such a policy?

I don't. I just said I am pro Israel. They're not tryning to kill civilians. Hamas is.

While the IDF is not trying to kill civilians, they are much more proficient and prolific in that regard than Hamas has ever been.

But you do defend that policy. Every time you post the functional equivalent of "It's Hamas's fault", you defend a policy you admit will not solve the problem.

Does your reasoning cut both ways? Every time somebody posts the functional equivalent of "It's Israel's fault", is he or she defending Hamas's policy of targeting noncombatants?

It does if “It’s Israel’s fault” is used to justify Hamas’s policy of targeting noncombatant’s.

 

[Bomb#20]

The Middle East problem needs to be resolved based on the current situation, not based on whose ancestors did what to whom.

True, which is why the issues there appear so intractable. Like it or not, people tend to want "fair" outcomes which tends to make who did what to whom seem important.

People champion fairness until they gain from the inequity. With Israel and Palestine, it's deemed acceptable to ask Palestinians to overlook their heritage, yet suggesting that Israel forget its roots makes you a supporter of children being beheaded, missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians and all sorts of self projecting rubbish.

The heck are you talking about? Everybody who says the Israelis should shut down their illegal settlements, pull back to the 1967 borders, give up on "Judea and Samaria" once and for all, and get serious about implementing a 2-state solution, is suggesting that Israel overlook its heritage and forget its roots. That's pretty much the entire U.S. population except the extremists who think Israel should just surrender.

The 'everybody' you mention isn't present in this thread to engage in our discussion. My comments are directed towards the arguments of individuals here who unwaveringly support the state of Israel and use the experiences of average Jewish people as a defense mechanism meat shield for their support of Zionism.

I lost you. Who here accused others of being supporters of children being beheaded and missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians just because they suggested that Israel forget its roots? Who here among the unwavering supporters of the state of Israel does so on account of not overlooking Israelis' heritage rather than on account of not wanting Israelis to be murdered?

(And what do you think "Zionism" means, anyway, "From the river to the sea for the Jews"? That's not what it means. Anybody who thinks Israel should continue to exist is a Zionist.)

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, you lost me.

(And what do you think "Zionism" means, anyway, "From the river to the sea for the Jews"? That's not what it means. Anybody who thinks Israel should continue to exist is a Zionist.)

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. If the state of Israel was formed organically I would be a Zionist. However since it's really just a European ham-fist sandwich I'm not. I'm all in for Jewish people though.

I lost you. Who here accused others of being supporters of children being beheaded and missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians just because they suggested that Israel forget its roots? Who here among the unwavering supporters of the state of Israel does so on account of not overlooking Israelis' heritage rather than on account of not wanting Israelis to be murdered?

Individuals, motivated by Zionism who fail to recognize Palestinians as equals, instead labeling them universally as adversaries. The same folks whos narrative is any civilian casualties resulting from the conflict can be attributed to the actions of the victims themselves, rather than the complexities of the situation (including but not limited to the ham-fist sandwich).

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yeah, you lost me.

(And what do you think "Zionism" means, anyway, "From the river to the sea for the Jews"? That's not what it means. Anybody who thinks Israel should continue to exist is a Zionist.)

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. If the state of Israel was formed organically I would be a Zionist. However since it's really just a European ham-fist sandwich I'm not. I'm all in for Jewish people though.

Meh. Too simplistic.

While Azkenhazi Jews are dominant in Israel. Most Jews are Mizrahi, ie, just another kind of Arab. These were the Jews who either never left Israel or came from countries immediately advancent to Israel, when it was founded.

They're not part of the "European ham sandwich". They went from being a random poor peasant in the collapsed spoils of the Ottoman empire (who made lots of effort to respect and protect Jews), to suddenly finding themselves being the dominant culture, (for the first time since the Hasmonean dynasty fell (37 BC). These guys are as much victims of circumstances as the Palestinians. They didn't ask to get expelled from their homelands and shipped to Israel. But it happened, and then they needed to make the best of it. Culturally in Israel, they often piss off Azkenhazi Jews, because they just don't give a fuck. They mostly just want to get laid and high. Because they're culturally, just an other kind of Arab.

A large proportion of the Jews came there because they were fleeing persecution in (the highly antisemitic) communist Eastern Europe (Azkenhazi Jews). They weren't moving to something, as away from something. This was my Jewish ex-wives family. Her family was atheists and couldn't give less of a shit about religion. These were also rarely wealthy. These Jews were often poor and not well educated.

The early Zionists (Theoder Herzl for example) wasn't so much Jewish nationalists and just wanting to get the fuck out of Europe, due to the rising tide of antisemitism. If you want to know the background of this I can recommend Hannah Arendt's "The Origins of Totalitarianism". Zola's JAccuse is also good. Basically, there was a small group of Jewish bankers who allowed petty European kings borrow money to fight one another. Due to treacherous relatives, these same Jewish famiies were tasked with running the kingdoms. They were trusted by the kings, because there was no way an antisemetic populace would allow them to take power. So basically, Jews did the dirty work of European kings and allowed the kings to cling to power. As nationalism hit Europe in the aftermath of Napoleon and kings were replaced with presidents, Jews lost their royal protectors. Leading to unleashed pent up hatred from the rising, formerly oppressed, masses of Europe. This antisemitic hate was only partly irrational. This is a context that is often left out when people try to understand wtf happened during the Holocaust. Anyway... it's avoiding this rising unleashed hatred that motivated Zionists more than anything else. Herzl and Ben-Gurion could see where the wind was blowing and wanted to get the fuck out. Anywhere but Europe.

And then add to this the heavily secularised Sephardic Jews.

And also the American Jews, heavily influenced by Evangelical Christianity (Netanyahu's ilk). Who is the group, who more than any other, finance Israel, so have a disproportionally big say in how things are run. These are often rabid Jewish nationalists. But they're just loud, rather than the majority.

I lost you. Who here accused others of being supporters of children being beheaded and missiles being lobbed at innocent civilians just because they suggested that Israel forget its roots? Who here among the unwavering supporters of the state of Israel does so on account of not overlooking Israelis' heritage rather than on account of not wanting Israelis to be murdered?

Individuals, motivated by Zionism who fail to recognize Palestinians as equals, instead labeling them universally as adversaries. The same folks whos narrative is any civilian casualties resulting from the conflict can be attributed to the actions of the victims themselves, rather than the complexities of the situation (including but not limited to the ham-fist sandwich).

Jews tend to be an extremly pragmatic people. They listen to reason and will do whatever they need to do to survive. It's a trait that, historically, have served Jews well. Big dreams and lofty ideals is something an opressed marginalised people cannot afford. Jewish culture, above all else, is a survival culture.

I don't think Zionism is what you think it is.

 

[laughing dog]

Jews tend to be an extremly pragmatic people.

Pragmatism is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly insisting on a location for a country that is surrounded by hostiles is not a good indication of pragmatism in my view. Nonetheless, one could say that almost every surviving "peoples" are pragmatic.

They listen to reason and will do whatever they need to do to survive. It's a trait that, historically, have served Jews well.

Except, of course, when it didn't.

Big dreams and lofty ideals is something an opressed marginalised people cannot afford. Jewish culture, above all else, is a survival culture.

All cultures have big dreams and lofty ideals. It is how well the people measure up to their ideals/standards that counts. Certainly Jews have such big dreams and ideals for themselves.

 

[Gospel]

What Is A Spectacular Misinterpretation Of My Words' for $1000 Alex.

Zionist aren't inherently Jewish. Why you're offering your hand me down version of what Jews are to you in an attempt to explain how I don't know what Zionism is, is beyond me. And yes, the state of Israel is a European ham-fist sandwich. It was entirely manufactured by Europeans. Are you claiming The UN General Assembly Resolution 181 wasn't manufactured by Europeans? I won't even get into the fact it wasn't a legal document and simply a not very well thought out indorsement that the Israeli Declaration of Independence cited as if it were law.

 

[Gospel]

And before some super Dumbo comes soring in with cape flapping behind them. Yes the UN is an international organization that consists of more than just European countries. However, absolutely NO Arab countries voted in favor of Resolution 181. And the UN didn't even have the power to enforce it nor was it within their scope to partition land.

 

[Gospel]

Ultimately the state of Israel was established through force with the help of every single Zionist (extremists or not).

 

[laughing dog]

And before some super Dumbo comes soring in with cape flapping behind them. Yes the UN is an international organization that consists of more than just European countries. However, absolutely NO Arab countries voted in favor of Resolution 181. And the UN didn't even have the power to enforce it nor was it within their scope to partition land.

Did you mean ears instead of cape?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Jews tend to be an extremly pragmatic people.

Pragmatism is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly insisting on a location for a country that is surrounded by hostiles is not a good indication of pragmatism in my view. Nonetheless, one could say that almost every surviving "peoples" are pragmatic.

But they didn't. The first Zionists wanted to settle in Uganda. Why Uganda? For racist reasons. Nobody cared about blacks then.

They were given Palestine because the British governer was an Evangelical Christian loon and thought Jesus would come back if all Jews retured to the promised land. Since this was a once-in-many-lifetimes-offer the Zionists didn't hesitate, and switched to Palestine. They were also given vast sums of money by the British government. Something they would not have gotten if they settled in Uganda. It was a very pragmatic choice.

They listen to reason and will do whatever they need to do to survive. It's a trait that, historically, have served Jews well.

Except, of course, when it didn't.

Things can go badly even if you do everything right.

Big dreams and lofty ideals is something an opressed marginalised people cannot afford. Jewish culture, above all else, is a survival culture.

All cultures have big dreams and lofty ideals. It is how well the people measure up to their ideals/standards that counts. Certainly Jews have such big dreams and ideals for themselves.

I don't think you know many Jews. There's a reason Jews are so fucking funny. It's the most cynical bunch on the planet.

 

[Gospel]

Both humor & cynicism transcends racial boundaries and their appeal is largely a matter of personal taste. Thanks for sharing your perspective though.