Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Tigers!]

How will you separate the Gazan sheep from the extremists goats? Who are those very brave Gazans who will stand up and become part of the next governing body without them or their families being assissinated?

Israel might start by supporting the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in regaining control of Gaza. While the PLO was once as militant as Hamas, it has since shifted toward a more diplomatic approach. Additionally, Israel shares some responsibility for Hamas's rise to power, having initially supported its early development as a counterbalance to the PLO.

In hindsight Isreali support for Hamas was wrong but PA vs. Hamas and no crystal ball. I do not blame the Israelis for chosing the devil they did not know vs. the devil they did.

However, as others have noted, the Palestinian population presents a broader challenge. A significant segment still refuses to accept Israel's right to exist and will continue to oppose the PLO, especially in the wake of Israel’s invasion prompted by Hamas's actions. The overall dynamics are unlikely to shift dramatically, as this would essentially revert Gaza to pre-Hamas conditions, now compounded by increased governance challenges, economic stagnation, and mistrust between Israelis, Palestinians, and Palestinians & the PLO.

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

Indeed they are and none are good. The best of a very poor bunch mst be chosen.

In my opinion, Israel could collaborate with the PLO to help them regain the trust of Palestinians by supporting their humanitarian efforts. Another good starting point might be agreeing to end and dismantle Jewish settlements while completely lifting restrictions on fishing.

I was not aware of any Jewish settlements in Gaza? I thought they were all gone.
Concerning the West Bank - no new Jewish settlements and no expansion of existing ones. At least for the forseeable future.

However, when it comes to other matters, such as control over imports, airspace, and borders, Israel has little incentive to relinquish control, as Gaza will continue to pose a security threat due to the ideology that frames the liberation of Palestine from Israeli control as a religious duty.

Until a non-miltant Islamic authority exists in Gaza Israel cannot afford to relax the pressure.

There needs to be ways to begin an economy not as dependent upon foreign aid as it is and somehow get it beyond the graps of miltants. the education system is Gaza needs to be redone. Teaching the childrem to hate and kill is not ever a viable educational aim.
Somehow a way to allow Gazan industry to florish and export via sea and land without comprising Israeli saftey and security must be found.

 

[DrZoidberg]

How will you separate the Gazan sheep from the extremists goats? Who are those very brave Gazans who will stand up and become part of the next governing body without them or their families being assissinated?

Israel might start by supporting the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in regaining control of Gaza. While the PLO was once as militant as Hamas, it has since shifted toward a more diplomatic approach. Additionally, Israel shares some responsibility for Hamas's rise to power, having initially supported its early development as a counterbalance to the PLO.

However, as others have noted, the Palestinian population presents a broader challenge. A significant segment still refuses to accept Israel's right to exist and will continue to oppose the PLO, especially in the wake of Israel’s invasion prompted by Hamas's actions. The overall dynamics are unlikely to shift dramatically, as this would essentially revert Gaza to pre-Hamas conditions, now compounded by increased governance challenges, economic stagnation, and mistrust between Israelis, Palestinians, and Palestinians & the PLO.

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

In my opinion, Israel could collaborate with the PLO to help them regain the trust of Palestinians by supporting their humanitarian efforts. Another good starting point might be agreeing to end and dismantle Jewish settlements while completely lifting restrictions on fishing. However, when it comes to other matters, such as control over imports, airspace, and borders, Israel has little incentive to relinquish control, as Gaza will continue to pose a security threat due to the ideology that frames the liberation of Palestine from Israeli control as a religious duty.

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the Internal dynamics of the region nor the culture

Its not going to happen

 

[Gospel]

How will you separate the Gazan sheep from the extremists goats? Who are those very brave Gazans who will stand up and become part of the next governing body without them or their families being assissinated?

Israel might start by supporting the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in regaining control of Gaza. While the PLO was once as militant as Hamas, it has since shifted toward a more diplomatic approach. Additionally, Israel shares some responsibility for Hamas's rise to power, having initially supported its early development as a counterbalance to the PLO.

However, as others have noted, the Palestinian population presents a broader challenge. A significant segment still refuses to accept Israel's right to exist and will continue to oppose the PLO, especially in the wake of Israel’s invasion prompted by Hamas's actions. The overall dynamics are unlikely to shift dramatically, as this would essentially revert Gaza to pre-Hamas conditions, now compounded by increased governance challenges, economic stagnation, and mistrust between Israelis, Palestinians, and Palestinians & the PLO.

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

In my opinion, Israel could collaborate with the PLO to help them regain the trust of Palestinians by supporting their humanitarian efforts. Another good starting point might be agreeing to end and dismantle Jewish settlements while completely lifting restrictions on fishing. However, when it comes to other matters, such as control over imports, airspace, and borders, Israel has little incentive to relinquish control, as Gaza will continue to pose a security threat due to the ideology that frames the liberation of Palestine from Israeli control as a religious duty.

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the Internal dynamics of the region nor the culture

Its not going to happen

Wonderful. What is it that I've said that supports your claim that I don't know anything about the internal dynamics of the region? And as for whether it will happen or not, that's just your opinion, like what I've suggested is mine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Family welfare can force individuals to prioritize survival over personal beliefs or resistance. If Hamas seizes supplies and uses them as leverage against Gazans, it compels some to become Hamas combatants. Then whether they are willing participants or not, the IDF still has to act and neutralize them as part of heir operations.

Correct so far.

That's why I argue that controlling supplies, identifying non-combatants, and ensuring their safety are critical for Israel's security. I'm confident this is being taken into account, and there's substantial evidence to suggest it's happening—for instance, large areas of Gaza near the occupied zones being converted into shelters, such as al-Mawasi and UNRWA locations.

And you think Israel can control supplies in Gaza??? The last time they tried that Hamas managed to set up a situation where it looked like the IDF killed a bunch of civilians. (Personally, I find holes in the evidence and think this is yet another case of Hamas staging killings.)

Italy admits rockets that hit UN forces were from Hezbollah, not Israel

Last week Italy had said an unexploded artillery shell hit the base of UNIFIL base, putting the blame on the IDF.

www.jpost.com

I have repeatedly suggested that certain events in Gaza were false flag operations by Hamas and most of you seem to consider that unreasonable. Well, now we have a clearly identified false flag out of Lebanon. Italy has admitted that Hezbollah staged an "Israeli" attack on a UN base.

Do you still find the notion of a false flag Hamas operation preposterous?

Hamas already has a well-documented history of harming Gazans, making it highly likely they're still harming civilians. Not sure who would need convincing of that at this point. Now If someone claims a specific attack was carried out by Hamas and is asked for proof, the act of making the request for proof isn't a denial of the claim. That's not how things have ever worked on this forum.

The problem is people expect proof beyond a reasonable doubt--something that almost certainly will never exist. I'm looking at things where we don't have definitive evidence and deciding whether it makes more sense as an Israeli action or a Hamas action.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

I wouldn't particularly trust any "official pronouncements" coming out of a situation like that.
Tom

Then why think the war will end if hostages are returned? And if returning the hostages won't end the conflict, why incentive does Hamas have to return them?

Israel has previously offered and end to hostilities in exchange for releasing the hostages. Why do you think that isn't an option now?

You seem determined to expect Israel to accept failure and thus encourage more 10/7s.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You've essentially repeated my argument but reframed it as though I said the opposite. You seem to agree that extremists must be addressed while simultaneously supporting efforts to 'liberalize Islam'. It's counterproductive to focus exclusively on extremist Islam, as it undermines and complicates the efforts of those working toward positive change. That's the core of my argument. You consistently imply that I fail to grasp the extremity of groups like Hamas, which is an unfounded assumption. Although it's an improvement, this is the first time you've said anything that genuinely acknowledges the humanity of people of the Muslim faith (again I'm not talking about Hamas here).

BTW, yes, yes, yes, I’ve said it countless times already: Hamas and extremism absolutely need to be addressed. I’m at my wits’ end with how deaf some of you seem to be on this.

The problem with working for positive change is that you're looking for your keys under the streetlight. Iran isn't interested in positive change. And they have enough power to ensure there will be no positive change in places like Gaza. You're looking to do something even though it's not going to accomplish anything.

You seem to underestimate the determination of the Israeli people. Look at how far they’ve progressed, primarily through defensive measures (aside from the occupied zones). Yet, you question whether their offensive strategies can produce meaningful outcomes. Israel has a well-documented history of launching successful offensives that resulted in significant territorial gains, later relinquished through diplomatic agreements.

In this case the meaningful outcome is a reduction of Hamas combat capability and recovery of the hostages.

They don’t necessarily need to fully withdraw from Gaza if they can win the hearts of its people and adopt a unified strategy to prevent the resurgence of groups like Hamas (which Israel ironically once supported to undermine the PLO, a move that backfired) while keeping Iran out. This could be achieved with support not just from the U.S. but also from other UN members, along with regional players like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

And once again you continue to expect the impossible: keeping Iran out. (And I wouldn't say that supporting Hamas backfired--it did split the Palestinians. Yes, it's Hamas that is currently the violent one but the name is irrelevant, the violent ones are driven by Iranian funding, not by anything intrinsic to the organization. Had they not supported Hamas we would not now be seeing a war with Hamas, but replacing them with a different puppet wouldn't change the big picture.)

Most criticism focuses on the destruction in Gaza and the civilian death toll—virtually no one, to my knowledge, is defending Hamas. I haven’t seen a single nation that matters (TomC®) stand up and say, 'Hey, leave Hamas alone, they’re our allies.

Nobody's saying Hamas is their ally. But why did we have to use our UN veto on this:

US vetoes UN resolution demanding a cease-fire in Gaza because there's no link to a hostage release

The United States vetoed a U.N. resolution demanding an immediate cease-fire in the war in Gaza because it is not linked to an immediate release of hostages.

apnews.com

In other words, the majority of the world's nations want a Hamas victory.

And why is the ICC going for a war crimes prosecution without first considering whether there are war crimes?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But it is not enough to just eliminate Hamas. Any other such organisations e.g. Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc. must also be prevented from obtaining power.

Exactly. Hamas is a puppet, not an enemy. Defeating them is only a temporary benefit.

Hearts and minds are the way of saying it but the devil is in the detail.

Hearts and minds is a way of ignoring the details.

This would enable them to keep organizations like Hamas and external influences, including Iran, out of their territory. It won't be easy.

No it will not be easy. And so far no-one even has the broad outlines of how to do it.

Sure they do. Blame the side with the perceived power. There must be a good answer, they failed to find it, it's their fault. And if you don't accept this you are siding with evil!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

As I said before, the need to do something drives a lot of wrong.

Ugly as it is the status quo of Israel periodically smashing the terrorists is almost certainly the best attainable outcome.

In my opinion, Israel could collaborate with the PLO to help them regain the trust of Palestinians by supporting their humanitarian efforts. Another good starting point might be agreeing to end and dismantle Jewish settlements while completely lifting restrictions on fishing. However, when it comes to other matters, such as control over imports, airspace, and borders, Israel has little incentive to relinquish control, as Gaza will continue to pose a security threat due to the ideology that frames the liberation of Palestine from Israeli control as a religious duty.

As always, make the Jews do something. They're tired of always being asked to do something.

And it's the overall religious ideology, not specifically the Palestinian religious ideology. Islam hates the notion of losing land and Israel is an extreme case of it. This isn't about the people, it's about what religion controls the land.

And Israel doesn't care about fishing, they care about "fishermen" smuggling in weapons.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There needs to be ways to begin an economy not as dependent upon foreign aid as it is and somehow get it beyond the graps of miltants. the education system is Gaza needs to be redone. Teaching the childrem to hate and kill is not ever a viable educational aim.
Somehow a way to allow Gazan industry to florish and export via sea and land without comprising Israeli saftey and security must be found.

There was a pretty good economy. The militants wrecked it. Until the terror money is removed there is no fixing the situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the Internal dynamics of the region nor the culture

Its not going to happen

But there must be an answer! If you can't find it you didn't look hard enough.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You've essentially repeated my argument but reframed it as though I said the opposite. You seem to agree that extremists must be addressed while simultaneously supporting efforts to 'liberalize Islam'. It's counterproductive to focus exclusively on extremist Islam, as it undermines and complicates the efforts of those working toward positive change. That's the core of my argument. You consistently imply that I fail to grasp the extremity of groups like Hamas, which is an unfounded assumption. Although it's an improvement, this is the first time you've said anything that genuinely acknowledges the humanity of people of the Muslim faith (again I'm not talking about Hamas here).

BTW, yes, yes, yes, I’ve said it countless times already: Hamas and extremism absolutely need to be addressed. I’m at my wits’ end with how deaf some of you seem to be on this.

The problem with working for positive change is that you're looking for your keys under the streetlight. Iran isn't interested in positive change. And they have enough power to ensure there will be no positive change in places like Gaza. You're looking to do something even though it's not going to accomplish anything.

You seem to underestimate the determination of the Israeli people. Look at how far they’ve progressed, primarily through defensive measures (aside from the occupied zones). Yet, you question whether their offensive strategies can produce meaningful outcomes. Israel has a well-documented history of launching successful offensives that resulted in significant territorial gains, later relinquished through diplomatic agreements.

In this case the meaningful outcome is a reduction of Hamas combat capability and recovery of the hostages.

They don’t necessarily need to fully withdraw from Gaza if they can win the hearts of its people and adopt a unified strategy to prevent the resurgence of groups like Hamas (which Israel ironically once supported to undermine the PLO, a move that backfired) while keeping Iran out. This could be achieved with support not just from the U.S. but also from other UN members, along with regional players like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

And once again you continue to expect the impossible: keeping Iran out. (And I wouldn't say that supporting Hamas backfired--it did split the Palestinians. Yes, it's Hamas that is currently the violent one but the name is irrelevant, the violent ones are driven by Iranian funding, not by anything intrinsic to the organization. Had they not supported Hamas we would not now be seeing a war with Hamas, but replacing them with a different puppet wouldn't change the big picture.)

Most criticism focuses on the destruction in Gaza and the civilian death toll—virtually no one, to my knowledge, is defending Hamas. I haven’t seen a single nation that matters (TomC®) stand up and say, 'Hey, leave Hamas alone, they’re our allies.

Nobody's saying Hamas is their ally. But why did we have to use our UN veto on this:

US vetoes UN resolution demanding a cease-fire in Gaza because there's no link to a hostage release

The United States vetoed a U.N. resolution demanding an immediate cease-fire in the war in Gaza because it is not linked to an immediate release of hostages.

apnews.com

In other words, the majority of the world's nations want a Hamas victory.

And why is the ICC going for a war crimes prosecution without first considering whether there are war crimes?

In all fairness the ICC prosecution is to evaluate whether there has been war crimes. Any nation who subscribe to it can make an accusation.

Because idiots don't understand how courts work they often confuse an accusation with guilt

I think its good to try Netanyahu. I think he won't be found guilty

 

[ZiprHead]

And why is the ICC going for a war crimes prosecution without first considering whether there are war crimes?

Why do you think they didn't?

 

[Gospel]

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

As I said before, the need to do something drives a lot of wrong.

Ugly as it is the status quo of Israel periodically smashing the terrorists is almost certainly the best attainable outcome.

In my opinion, Israel could collaborate with the PLO to help them regain the trust of Palestinians by supporting their humanitarian efforts. Another good starting point might be agreeing to end and dismantle Jewish settlements while completely lifting restrictions on fishing. However, when it comes to other matters, such as control over imports, airspace, and borders, Israel has little incentive to relinquish control, as Gaza will continue to pose a security threat due to the ideology that frames the liberation of Palestine from Israeli control as a religious duty.

As always, make the Jews do something. They're tired of always being asked to do something.

And it's the overall religious ideology, not specifically the Palestinian religious ideology. Islam hates the notion of losing land and Israel is an extreme case of it. This isn't about the people, it's about what religion controls the land.

And Israel doesn't care about fishing, they care about "fishermen" smuggling in weapons.

So your suggestion is for Israelis to just keep getting killed and retaliate. Sorry but you're also asking them to do something but not only that, but to keep doing that same something indefinitely.

 

[Gospel]

I have no idea why Loren keeps replying to my posts when almost everything Loren adds is something I’ve already said. Loren essentially restates my points in a different way and then claims I have expectations of Israel that I don’t apply to Gaza. I’ve literally mentioned the extremists in Gaza, stressing that Gazans (Palestinians) need to "do something" about that extremism. Loren seems oddly fixated on the phrase 'doing something,' I'm just suggesting that Gazans take action against the extremists and Israel leverage the opportunity Israel created when 'doing something' that just so happened to free Gazans from Hamas' oppression. Both with the goal of forcing Iran and other extremists to abandon using Gaza. I’ve already acknowledged that this may not be easy, nor have I suggested it’s a perfect solution.

I wonder what it is about me that leads Loren and Zoidberg to assume I’m ignorant or that I hold Israel to higher expectations than Gazans, along with the other accusations they’ve thrown my way. Neither seems particularly interested in answering the question of what else can be done. Instead, they keep repeating the point that 'they will never stop trying to destroy Israel'—an ideology I’ve already acknowledged and mentioned multiple times!

 

[ZiprHead]

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

As I said before, the need to do something drives a lot of wrong.

Irony is dead.

 

[Gospel]

Because idiots don't understand how courts work they often confuse an accusation with guilt

Facts! While it’s understandable that the accused would protest, as they rightfully should, it makes little sense for third parties to treat it as anything more than an inquiry.

 

[Gospel]

There was a pretty good economy. The militants wrecked it. Until the terror money is removed there is no fixing the situation.

Exactly. Regrettably. you seem opposed to any efforts by Israel to disrupt the flow of terror funding. It seems you believe Israel should continue tolerating the hostile ideology in Gaza, perpetuating the cycle of attacks and invasion, an approach that does nothing to remove terror money. Here’s a hint: to eliminate terror funding, you need an environment where people are no longer willing to accept it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There was a pretty good economy. The militants wrecked it. Until the terror money is removed there is no fixing the situation.

Exactly. Regrettably. you seem opposed to any efforts by Israel to disrupt the flow of terror funding. It seems you believe Israel should continue tolerating the hostile ideology in Gaza, perpetuating the cycle of attacks and invasion, an approach that does nothing to remove terror money. Here’s a hint: to eliminate terror funding, you need an environment where people are no longer willing to accept it.

At this point, I think we need to accept that the baseline opinion of Palestinians is to wipe out Israel as a state. Israelis have no illusions about that. Which explains their behaviour

I don't think the Palestinians can be reasoned with. I think the only compromise they are willing to accept is one where Israel is gone. Any Palestinian leader who engages with Israel loses Palestinian support. I think Palestinian leaders have learned their lesson

We are dealing with a situation where extremism is the norm

Also, pay attention to the Arab governments. Since the six day war they all did a 180 and have all tried finding a peaceful solution. There's just so much they can do without inciting a domestic revolt

Regular Arabs really really hate Jews. Its not getting better

 

[Arctish]

There was a pretty good economy. The militants wrecked it. Until the terror money is removed there is no fixing the situation.

Exactly. Regrettably. you seem opposed to any efforts by Israel to disrupt the flow of terror funding. It seems you believe Israel should continue tolerating the hostile ideology in Gaza, perpetuating the cycle of attacks and invasion, an approach that does nothing to remove terror money. Here’s a hint: to eliminate terror funding, you need an environment where people are no longer willing to accept it.

At this point, I think we need to accept that the baseline opinion of Palestinians is to wipe out Israel as a state.

Why would we accept that when you haven't shown us opinion pieces or interviews with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that indicate widespread determination to do anything other than have their human rights respected and their lives valued?

I don't think the Palestinians can be reasoned with.

Bigotry aside, why is that?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They are as reasonable as we are.

 

[Gospel]

Also, pay attention to the Arab governments. Since the six day war they all did a 180 and have all tried finding a peaceful solution. There's just so much they can do without inciting a domestic revolt

Have you considered that Arabs and Jews share profound cultural, linguistic, and historical connections? Shifts in attitudes often stem more from the actions and beliefs of individuals and communities than from governments, which is often the case in most political systems. In fact, intra-Arab tensions sometimes surpass hostility toward Jews or Israel. These dynamics evolve over time, often under pressure. What I'm suggesting is that Israel not only use force in self-defense but also strategically challenge the ideologies that fuel groups like Hamas.