Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[pood]

I really wonder what those supporting Israel’s current actions in Gaza think those actions will accomplish.

Ending the ability of Islamic terrorists to launch invasions of Israel, from Gaza, for a while.

See above. For every Hamas terrorist they kill, they are planting the seeds for fifty more to take that one dead person’s place. Israel’s actions will make things worse for them in the long run, as it always does. That’s why this problem goes on.

Maybe permanently, although it will take a generation or so to tell. Might require a re-application if Gazans prefer to keep violent terrorists in power in Gaza. Maybe they'll choose peace and prosperity, but it's been years and it's not happened yet.

The peace and prosperity, the basic dignity, that Israel has denied them for generations? Their lack of peace and prosperity is not their choice — it has always been Israel’s.

You also presume here that ordinary Gazans “decide” who gets to be in power in their suffering enclave.

 

[pood]

I do know that at the beginning of the Israeli offensive,

The beginning of the Israeli offensive was October 7, 2023.
Tom

Your point?

 

[laughing dog]

Why only the “Muslim world”?

As usual, I didn't say that.

You wrote
"Egypt is not the only safe place. The Muslim world is quite large and Muslim Gazans....". You did not mention any other place. So, as usual, you deny what you actually wrote.

 

[laughing dog]

Why not let civilians in Gaza who wish to leave to go where they want to go?

I would be totally about that.
Algeria, Michigan, Egypt, anywhere but Israel.

If the civilians are peaceful, why exclude them from Israel? If individuals are not, they can be deported.

I seriously doubt that the current gov't of Israel would let any of them in, but that is a different question.

 

[TomC]

Why only the “Muslim world”?

As usual, I didn't say that.

You wrote
"Egypt is not the only safe place. The Muslim world is quite large and Muslim Gazans....". You did not mention any other place. So, as usual, you deny what you actually wrote.

What I wrote was

If a Gazan really wanted to go to Michigan, I wouldn't object. But I can't help but assume that the vast majority would rather be somewhere close by, Muslim, without the language and cultural barriers in Christendom. Egypt would seem ideal.
Tom

But, of course, you prefer to keep your ideology pure so you probably didn't understand that.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

Why not let civilians in Gaza who wish to leave to go where they want to go?

I would be totally about that.
Algeria, Michigan, Egypt, anywhere but Israel.

If the civilians are peaceful, why exclude them from Israel? If individuals are not, they can be deported.

I seriously doubt that the current gov't of Israel would let any of them in, but that is a different question.

Because Israel dosnt want them. I know that sounds harsh. But Americans would feel the exact same way if we were in their shoes. Most Americans want to close the Mexico border. And yet polls show that most Latin Americans like the US. They do not support terrorist attacks in the US. Most want to come here and simply work. Most don’t want to change our government. We have plenty of land in the US. And yet we don’t want them in our country.

 

[TomC]

If the civilians are peaceful, why exclude them from Israel? If individuals are not, they can be deported.

Tell us how to distinguish between peaceful civilians and the Gazans who helped Hamas launch the attack last October?

I seriously doubt that the current gov't of Israel would let any of them in, but that is a different question.

I think it's the exact same question.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Because Israel dosnt want them.

Israel doesn't want them in Israel because they are consistently violent. Usually against civilians because they are easy targets.

And yet we don’t want them in our country.

Speak for yourself. I'm fine with immigrants.
More is better.

I think our current system of giving jobs but not documents is incredibly stupid. But I don't have the slightest problem with them in my country. Quite the contrary.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

Because Israel dosnt want them.

Israel doesn't want them in Israel because they are consistently violent. Usually against civilians because they are easy targets.

And yet we don’t want them in our country.

Speak for yourself. I'm fine with immigrants.
More is better.

I think our current system of giving jobs but not documents is incredibly stupid. But I don't have the slightest problem with them in my country. Quite the contrary.
Tom

Oh, I agree! We’re crazy. By all economic measures, immigration is a huge plus for economy. We have a worker shortage. Violent crime committed by immigrants is far less than crimes committed by natives. But you and I are in the minority. Most Americans want the border sealed up.

 

[TomC]

I do know that at the beginning of the Israeli offensive,

The beginning of the Israeli offensive was October 7, 2023.
Tom

Your point?

That the disaster in Gaza is the result of Islamic terrorist violence.

What Israel is doing is not really an offensive military operation. It's a defensive reaction to the military attack.
Easily avoided, but not by Israel.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

Why not let civilians in Gaza who wish to leave to go where they want to go?

I would be totally about that.
Algeria, Michigan, Egypt, anywhere but Israel.

If the civilians are peaceful, why exclude them from Israel? If individuals are not, they can be deported.

I seriously doubt that the current gov't of Israel would let any of them in, but that is a different question.

Because Israel dosnt want them. I know that sounds harsh. But Americans would feel the exact same way if we were in their shoes. Most Americans want to close the Mexico border. And yet polls show that most Latin Americans like the US. They do not support terrorist attacks in the US. Most want to come here and simply work. Most don’t want to change our government. We have plenty of land in the US. And yet we don’t want them in our country.

Let's just cut to the chase: Israel will not allow Palestinians from Gaza to relocate to anywhere Zionists want to be part of their religious ethno-state. It won't let them join Palestinians in the West Bank because it wants to force out those Palestinians, too.

 

[TomC]

Let's just cut to the chase: Israel will not allow Palestinians from Gaza to relocate to anywhere Zionists want to be part of their religious ethno-state. It won't let them join Palestinians in the West Bank because it wants to force out those Palestinians, too.

Let's just cut to the chase.
Israel is not going to allow their violent enemies to relocate anywhere that will help them achieve their goals of violent destruction of Israelis and genocide.

Not if they can help it, and they can.
The question is, "When will Palestinians choose peace and prosperity over violence and domination?" I'm not holding my breath.

And I think Israelis as a whole have given up on that. October 7 was solid evidence that Palestinians would rather continue the violence.
Permanently.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because Israel dosnt want them.

Israel doesn't want them in Israel because they are consistently violent. Usually against civilians because they are easy targets.

And yet we don’t want them in our country.

Speak for yourself. I'm fine with immigrants.
More is better.

I think our current system of giving jobs but not documents is incredibly stupid. But I don't have the slightest problem with them in my country. Quite the contrary.
Tom

Oh, I agree! We’re crazy. By all economic measures, immigration is a huge plus for economy. We have a worker shortage. Violent crime committed by immigrants is far less than crimes committed by natives. But you and I are in the minority. Most Americans want the border sealed up.

Most Americans don't give a fuck about the border. In theory they'd like less illegal immigration, but for most people, the border has no impact on their lives. People can poll on the border, but the only reason why people even have an opinion on it is because of the relentless harping on it by the alt-right.

Regarding "Israel" does "Israel" not want them or is it just right-wing or far right-wing Israelis?

 

[lpetrich]

Full text of Senator Chuck Schumer's speech: 'Israeli elections are the only way' | The Times of Israel

I speak for myself, but I also speak for so many mainstream Jewish Americans — a silent majority — whose nuanced views on the matter have never been well represented in this country’s discussions about the war in Gaza.

He then stated that his last name is derived from Hebrew shomer, "guardian", and that he is the highest-ranking Jewish government official in US history.

Then stating how much he and many fellow Jews love Israel.

"I remember clutching my transistor radio to my ear in James Madison High School during the Six Day War wondering if Israel would be pushed into the sea."

"I believe that to achieve that lasting peace — which we so long for — Israel must make some significant course corrections, which I will outline in this speech."

"I am working in every way I can to support the Biden Administration as negotiations continue to free every last one of the hostages."

My heart also breaks at the loss of so many civilian lives in Gaza. I am anguished that the Israeli war campaign has killed so many innocent Palestinians. I know that my fellow Jewish Americans feel this same anguish when they see the images of dead and starving children and destroyed homes.

Gaza is experiencing a humanitarian catastrophe — entire families wiped out, whole neighborhoods reduced to rubble, mass displacement, children suffering.

We should not let the complexities of this conflict stop us from stating the plain truth: Palestinian civilians do not deserve to suffer for the sins of Hamas, and Israel has a moral obligation to do better. The United States has an obligation to do better.

I believe the United States must provide robust humanitarian aid to Gaza, and pressure the Israelis to let more of it get through to the people who need it.

...
Israel must prioritize the protection of civilian casualties when identifying military targets. I have repeatedly called upon the Israeli government to do so.

Then saying that Hamas is guilty. But the most guilt that Hamas bears for Israel's close-to-genocidal attacks on Gazans is in goading Israelis into attacking them. Israel's leader should NOT have taken that bait. I repeat, they should NOT. They should have said "We are sure that Hamas wants to goad us into some disproportionate response, and we won't do that." Then tried some strategy to buy off whatever Gazans

Just like DNFTT - do not feed the trolls.

Senator Schumer said as much.

Hamas has knowingly invited an immense civilian toll during this war. Their goal on October 7 was to provoke a tough response from Israel by killing as many Jews as possible in the most vicious manner possible — by raping women, executing babies, desecrating bodies, brutalizing whole communities.

Then saying that Hamas has used civilians as human shields.

 

[lpetrich]

Senator Chuck Schumer:

And now, as a result of these inflamed tensions in both the Israeli and Palestinian communities, people on all sides of this war are turning away from a two-state solution — including Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who in recent weeks has said out loud repeatedly what many have long suspected by outright rejecting the idea of Palestinian statehood and sovereignty.

Then saying that that is a "grave mistake".

The only real and sustainable solution to this decades-old conflict is a negotiated two-state solution — a demilitarized Palestinian state living side-by-side with Israel in equal measures of peace, security, prosperity, dignity and mutual recognition.

While Israel stays militarized? Not a very good deal.

Then noting both sides' claims to the land, and wanting two states, side by side.

Then grumbling that a one-state solution, with Israelis and Palestinians in one combined state, would be bad for Israelis, since they would be outnumbered.

Then listing four big obstacles to peace:

Hamas, and the Palestinians who support and tolerate their evil ways.

Radical right-wing Israelis in government and society.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

[lpetrich]

About the first one,

It was Hamas who began its vicious campaign of suicide bombings against innocent Israelis to derail the nascent peace process in Oslo. It was Hamas who assassinated more moderate Palestinian political representatives in Gaza in 2007. It is Hamas who has held Gaza under repressive, undemocratic rule for close to two decades. And it is Hamas who has targeted those brave Gazans who have spoken out against its actions or tried to bridge the divide between Israelis and Palestinians.

About the second one,

The worst examples of this radicalism are Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and Ministry of National Security Itamar Ben Gvir.

Minister Smotrich has in the past openly called for the subjugation or forced displacement of all Palestinians in the West Bank. In the current crisis, he has used inflammatory rhetoric and called for punitive restrictions on Palestinian farmers in the West Bank during the olive harvest. He has prevented the transfer of funds to the Palestinian Authority, and he has opposed the provision of any humanitarian assistance to Gaza, going so far as to stop agreed-upon shipments of flour.

Minister Ben Gvir is no better. When he was a young man, he was barred from Israeli military service for his extremist views. Last year, in a move only intended to antagonize the Muslim population, he visited the Temple Mount with his supporters as a brazen show of force towards Palestinians. And during this current conflict, he has facilitated the mass distribution of guns to far-right settlers, exacerbating instability and fueling violence.

Then the third one, describing Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas as "beholden to his narrow political interests".

Over the years, President Abbas has evaded the democratic process, declining to hold elections for over a decade and failing to empower future leadership. Despite his long tenure leading the Palestinian Authority, he has achieved few of his self-proclaimed goals. The Palestinian Authority remains corrupt and continues to incite instability through the martyr payment system. Palestinians are no more prosperous, no safer, and no freer than they were when Abbas first took power. As a result, President Abbas has lost the trust of the Palestinian people.

Furthermore, he is a terrible role model and spiritual leader. In the past, he has participated in outright Holocaust denial, attempting to justify Nazis’ actions. This embrace of antisemitism extended to his refusal, for weeks, to condemn the loss of Israeli civilian life on October 7. Should Abbas remain, the Palestinian people can have no assurance that a Palestinian state would be able to ensure their safety or prosperity. Nor can they have any belief that the government would be free of corruption.

Then calling on him to step down.

 

[lpetrich]

About the fourth one,

I have known Prime Minister Netanyahu for a long time. While we have vehemently disagreed on many occasions, I will always respect his extraordinary bravery for Israel on the battlefield as a younger man. I believe in his heart his highest priority is the security of Israel.

However, I also believe Prime Minister Netanyahu has lost his way by allowing his political survival to take precedence over the best interests of Israel.

Then saying that he supports extremists like Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben Gvir, also pointing out his attempts to weaken the Israeli judiciary.

"The Netanyahu coalition no longer fits the needs of Israel after October 7."

Then saying that he ought to disavow the likes of BS and IbG.

He won’t disavow Ministers Smotrich and Ben Gvir and their calls for Israelis to drive Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank. He won’t commit to a military operation in Rafah that prioritizes protecting civilian life. He won’t engage responsibly in discussions about a “day-after” plan for Gaza, and a longer-term pathway to peace.

Then calling on Palestinians to reject the likes of Hamas, and Israelis to reject the likes of BS and IbG.

All sides must reject “From the river to the sea” thinking — and I believe they will if the prospects for peace and a two-state solution are real.

Then saying "Middle Eastern powers like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Jordan and other mainstream Arab states can have immense power and influence with the Palestinians."
and
"I believe there is enough strength in the Arab world to get President Abbas to step down, and to support a gradual succession plan for responsible Palestinian leaders to take his place."

 

[lpetrich]

Senator CS:

On the Israeli side, the US government should demand that Israel conduct itself with a future two-state solution in mind. We should not be forced into a position of unequivocally supporting the actions of an Israeli government that includes bigots who reject the idea of a Palestinian state.

...
At this critical juncture, I believe a new election is the only way to allow for a healthy and open decision-making process about the future of Israel, at a time when so many Israelis have lost their confidence in the vision and direction of their government.

...
Of course, the United States cannot dictate the outcome of an election, nor should we try. That is for the Israeli public to decide — a public that I believe understands better than anybody that Israel cannot hope to succeed as a pariah opposed by the rest of the world.

...
If Prime Minister Netanyahu’s current coalition remains in power after the war begins to wind down, and continues to pursue dangerous and inflammatory policies that test existing US standards for assistance, then the United States will have no choice but to play a more active role in shaping Israeli policy by using our leverage to change the present course.

I don't quite see where he called on Ben Netanyahu to step down.

Meddling in another nation's politics seems like a VERY bad idea, but IMO CS could have said "We won't interfere in your politics if you don't interfere in ours", then calling for the likes of AIPAC to be disbanded.

 

[lpetrich]

Schumer's rebuke of Netanyahu shows the long, fragile line the US and allies walk on interference | AP News

Republicans and Israeli officials were quick to express outrage after Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer sharply criticized Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s handling of the war in Gaza and called for Israel to hold new elections. They accused the Democratic leader of breaking the unwritten rule against interfering in a close ally’s electoral politics.

Mentioning Senator Mitch McConnell and Rep Mike Johnson.

“It is an urban legend that we don’t intervene in Israeli politics and they don’t try to intervene in ours,” said Aaron David Miller, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, who worked as a Middle East negotiator in Republican and Democratic administrations. “We do intercede and they do intercede in ours.”

Like Republicans supporting Ben Netanyahu.

Biden backs Schumer after senator calls for new elections in Israel | AP News

Israel-Hamas war: Cease-fire talks expected to restart in Qatar | AP News

The first aid ship using new sea route reaches Gaza, Israel says | AP News

A ship delivered 200 tons of humanitarian supplies, food and water to Gaza on Friday, the Israeli military said, inaugurating a sea route from Cyprus for aid to help ease the humanitarian crisis brought by Israel’s 5-month-old offensive in the enclave.

...
Israel has been under increasing pressure to allow more aid into Gaza, especially in the Palestinian territory’s isolated north where hunger is at its worst, with many people reduced to eating animal feed and weeds. The United States has joined other countries in airdropping supplies into northern Gaza and has announced separate plans to construct a pier to get aid in.

Then mentioning the ship, which towed a barge with "rice, flour, lentils, beans, tuna and canned meat."

Throughout the day Friday, the ship could be seen off Gaza’s coast. In the evening, the military said its cargo had been unloaded onto 12 trucks. Grainy footage released by the military showed a truck on a pier approaching the barge.

This food is intended for the north, where 300 thousand Gazans remain.

A second ship may be sent if the distribution of the first ship's food goes well.

 

[lpetrich]

Australia resumes funding for UNRWA and pledges more Gaza aid | AP News
Thus joining Canada, the European Union, and Sweden.

"The U.S. is also scrambling to open a new humanitarian aid corridor by building a floating dock off the coast of Gaza so aid can flow by sea."

Israel-Hamas war: US scrambles to build floating dock for Gaza aid | AP News

Israel-Hamas war: Proposed US resolution would back global efforts for immediate Gaza cease-fire | AP News