Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Copernicus]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This thread has been 90% focused on what should Israel and American do in Gaza; not much on Hamas. It appears that Israel has presented a reasonable compromise to Hamas: release the hostages in exchange for cease in hostilities and substantial Hamas prisoner exchange:

MSN

The hostages are, and always were, the plan by Hamas to get concessions from Israel. The problem is that, once they give them up, they have no leverage. At that point, Israel can then resume hostilities and take their revenge against Hamas at their leisure. A better strategy would be to cease the hostilities while the remaining hostages remain alive and open up negotiations while supplying Gaza with humanitarian aid. What would Israel lose by simply calling a temporary ceasefire and sitting down to negotiations? If it is willing to have a "substantial Hamas prisoner exchange" in return for the hostages, why does the agreement need to be made while so many people are dying? What normally happens in negotiations of this sort is that a solution is worked gradually, not all at once. Not all of the hostages need be released on the same day, and there needs to be confidence building exercises that help to calm down the urge for continued violence. That is extremely difficult while bombs and bullets are flying.

Historically, Israel has paid a very high price for hostages. Given how many were taken that's simply a non-viable path this time.

Thus Israel is going with the stick rather than the carrot--release the hostages and we will stop smashing you.

Once again the world is engaging in searching for their keys under the streetlight behavior. Everyone knows Hamas won't listen so they demand Israel make unilateral concessions in the name of peace. Israel has had repeated lessons in how this is bad for them in the long run and grows ever less willing to listen.

Note that there was a hostages for ceasefire that held until Hamas broke it. Why in the world should Israel make a worse deal than that?!

 

[Copernicus]

This thread has been 90% focused on what should Israel and American do in Gaza; not much on Hamas. It appears that Israel has presented a reasonable compromise to Hamas: release the hostages in exchange for cease in hostilities and substantial Hamas prisoner exchange:

MSN

The hostages are, and always were, the plan by Hamas to get concessions from Israel. The problem is that, once they give them up, they have no leverage. At that point, Israel can then resume hostilities and take their revenge against Hamas at their leisure. A better strategy would be to cease the hostilities while the remaining hostages remain alive and open up negotiations while supplying Gaza with humanitarian aid. What would Israel lose by simply calling a temporary ceasefire and sitting down to negotiations? If it is willing to have a "substantial Hamas prisoner exchange" in return for the hostages, why does the agreement need to be made while so many people are dying? What normally happens in negotiations of this sort is that a solution is worked gradually, not all at once. Not all of the hostages need be released on the same day, and there needs to be confidence building exercises that help to calm down the urge for continued violence. That is extremely difficult while bombs and bullets are flying.

Historically, Israel has paid a very high price for hostages. Given how many were taken that's simply a non-viable path this time.

Thus Israel is going with the stick rather than the carrot--release the hostages and we will stop smashing you.

Once again the world is engaging in searching for their keys under the streetlight behavior. Everyone knows Hamas won't listen so they demand Israel make unilateral concessions in the name of peace. Israel has had repeated lessons in how this is bad for them in the long run and grows ever less willing to listen.

Note that there was a hostages for ceasefire that held until Hamas broke it. Why in the world should Israel make a worse deal than that?!

This is why the US should take away its stick. Israel uses us to commit atrocities against innocent Palestinians, because it cannot distinguish them from the actual terrorists. That has to end. I'm glad that the US stood aside to allow the UN resolution to pass, but it should have voted for the resolution. And it should halt all arms shipments to Israel until it complies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This thread has been 90% focused on what should Israel and American do in Gaza; not much on Hamas. It appears that Israel has presented a reasonable compromise to Hamas: release the hostages in exchange for cease in hostilities and substantial Hamas prisoner exchange:

MSN

This is much more a political message than anything else. The devil is always in the details. Releasing such news is usually done to 1) show outsiders that one side is being "reasonable", 2) pressure a particular party, and 3) increase support from supporters and interested parties. It rarely helps the actually negotiators. In fact, in my experience, negotiators prefer secrecy - secrecy makes it easier to get settle the morecontroversial issues.

I agree with you. But it does appear that Hamas won't give up until an acceptable number of prisoners are swapped for the civilians. Showing how unreasonable Hamas could help them in the court of world opinion.

Anyone who doesn't already realize how unreasonable they are isn't going to learn from this. They're the underdogs, their people are starving and they're fighting Jews. That adds up to they must be in the right. And it doesn't help that the vast majority of the world press is unwilling to make remotely honest reports because that would cut off their access.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I left enough of your response to show the literal great lengths you go to avoid actually addressing a question the second time. I apologize for upsetting you.

I see no point in engaging further.

And once again you delete the relevant quote so it's not obvious that you're just running in circles to avoid reality.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

Mamma Mia! When you can get the US, China, and Russia to agree on something involving military action...

Personally, I'm for a cease fire. I'm also for the attack against Hamas. Yeah, kind of splitting the hair thin there. Trouble with the hostages is that the heads of Hamas are still at great risk. And Hamas will demand any release be contingent upon a cessation of violence against them. Of which they don't remotely deserve. And it isn't as if Hamas will just release all of the remaining hostages. Worst yet, the taking of hostages has created a disastrous precedence that has proven effective for Hamas on the more important levels.

 

[lpetrich]

Rep. AOC Delivers Major Speech on Looming Famine in Gaza and Administration Response to the Crisis - YouTube
Edited transcript:

Mr Speaker, I know a man, a decent man, who said that preventing genocide is an achievable goal, a goal that requires a level of government organization and engagement that matches in its intensity the brutality and efficiency required to carry out mass killing. Too often these efforts have come too late, after the best and least costly opportunities to prevent them have been missed. The man that said that was then Vice President and now President Joseph Biden, and he was right.

Mr Speaker, I rise to say that such a time is now. As we speak in this moment, 1.1 million innocent in Gaza are at famine's door, a famine that is being intentionally precipitated through the blocking of food and global humanitarian assistance by leaders in the Israeli government.

This is a mass starvation of people engineered and orchestrated following the killing of another 30,000, 70% of whom were women and children killed. There is hardly a single hospital left, and this was all accomplished, much of this accomplished, with US resources and weapons. If you want to know what an unfolding genocide looks like, open your eyes. It looks like the forced famine of 1.1 million innocents. It looks like thousands of children eating grass as their bodies consume themselves, while trucks of food are slowed and halted just miles away, It looks like good and decent people who do nothing or too little too late.

It is against United States law to provide weapons to forces who block United States humanitarian assistance, and that is exactly what is happening right now, so much so that the President himself stated during the State of the Union that the United States must and will be building its own port to let aid through. It will be too late. The time is now to force compliance with US law and the standards of humanity and fulfill our obligations to the American people to suspend the transfer of US weapons to the Israeli government in order to stop and prevent further atrocity. Honoring our alliances does not mean facilitating mass killing. We cannot hide from our responsibility any longer. Blocking assistance from one's closest allies to starve a million people is not not unintentional we have a responsibility to prove the value of global democracy enshrined in the upholding of civil society, rule of law, and commitment to human and civil rights.

This is not just about Israel or Gaza, this is about us. The world will never be the same, and we will never be the same, and we must write our story in this moment of what it means and who we are as Americans, and our story must be not that we were good men who did nothing but that we were a committed democracy that did something, and we must prove that now.

With that I yield back. Thank you.

Calling what Israel's doing genocide, and calling for cutting off military assistance to Israel. A previous President had threatened to do that: Ronald Reagan back in 1982 about Israel's invasion of Lebanon and siege of West Beirut.

 

[lpetrich]

AOC doubles down calling the situation in Gaza a genocide - YouTube - CNN
Jake Tapper interviewing AOC. Edited transcript of the appropriate part:

JT: You gave a very forceful speech on the House floor Friday about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. You called on President Biden to cut off U.S. military aid to Israel. I think we have a clip of part of what you said. Let's roll that.

AOC on the House floor: If you want to know what an unfolding genocide looks like. Open your eyes. It looks like the forced famine of 1.1 million innocents. We must write our story in this moment of what it means and who we are as Americans. And our story must be not that we were good men who did nothing.

JT: Now, clearly not enough aid is getting in. Clearly, the conditions for the Palestinian people are horrific and much more needs to be done. Genocide is a word that has serious and specific connotations and allegations. It's defined by the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. So you just to clarify here, you believe the Israeli military, the Israeli government, are actively trying. They intend to destroy the Palestinian people and not that what's happening is horrible, but it's happening because Israel is going after the terrorists of Hamas who attacked them on October 7th. And Hamas embeds within the civilian population.

AOC: Well, Jake, you're absolutely right. This word is extremely serious. It's one that's taken with extraordinary gravity. And to me, the threshold of intent is a high one. It is a serious one and is not one that is made lightly. However, when we look at the precipice of what is happening with a forced famine of 1.1 million Gazans where multiple governments, NGOs and even officials within the United States State Department have stated themselves plainly that the Israeli government and leaders in the Israeli government are intentionally denying, blocking, and slow walking this aid and are precipitating a mass famine.

I believe we have crossed the threshold of intent. It is horrific. I think it is extremely clear and it is extremely important that all people understand the difference between people and their governments, Israelis and the Israeli government. Palestinians from Hamas. But what we are seeing here, I think with a forced famine, is beyond our ability to deny or explain away. There is no targeting of Hamas in precipitating a mass famine of a million people, half of whom are children.

JT: So I asked Israeli officials about your speech, and they say we are allowing hundreds of aid trucks into Gaza every single day. They're trying to increase those numbers. They have to inspect the cargo to make sure no weapons are getting in, weapons that would be used by Hamas against the people of Israel. They also, Israeli officials also argue this war could end tomorrow if Hamas freed the hostages and lay down the arms. Do you disagree?

AOC: I do disagree because when we are talking about famine, the actions of Hamas should not be tied to whether a three year old can eat. The actions of Hamas do not justify forcing thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to eat grass as their bodies consume themselves. We and the Israeli government have a right to go after Hamas. But we are talking about a population of millions of innocent Palestinians. We are talking about collective punishment, which is in justifiable. And the excuses that the Israeli government is giving about what they are and are not allowing simply do not square with what the UK government is stating, with what international aid organizations are stating, and even what our own State Department officials are stating, which is that they are not allowing aid to go through. When they're talking about inspections, we're talking about U.S. aid. And so I think that if we are to operate as allies, then we must operate in good faith to uphold the principles of democracy, which includes respect for human rights, and also proving the value of our democracy, which is that we are different from other types of regimes with no regard for innocent people.

JT: Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, thank you for joining us this morning. We appreciate it.

AOC: Thank you.

Saying that Hamas is worth fighting, but not by committing genocide.

 

[bilby]

calling for cutting off military assistance to Israel. A previous President had threatened to do that: Ronald Reagan back in 1982

See! It's always the left wing!!

Oh, wait.

Shit.

 

[laughing dog]

I left enough of your response to show the literal great lengths you go to avoid actually addressing a question the second time. I apologize for upsetting you.

I see no point in engaging further.

And once again you delete the relevant quote so it's not obvious that you're just running in circles to avoid reality.

No, I didn't. But you did. So your response is epically ironic.

 

[Copernicus]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

Mamma Mia! When you can get the US, China, and Russia to agree on something involving military action...

Personally, I'm for a cease fire. I'm also for the attack against Hamas. Yeah, kind of splitting the hair thin there. Trouble with the hostages is that the heads of Hamas are still at great risk. And Hamas will demand any release be contingent upon a cessation of violence against them. Of which they don't remotely deserve. And it isn't as if Hamas will just release all of the remaining hostages. Worst yet, the taking of hostages has created a disastrous precedence that has proven effective for Hamas on the more important levels.

Hostage taking is really very, very precedented in the Middle East. What Hamas did on October 7 was an order of magnitude worse than they've done in the past, but the real focus has to be on what happens in the future. The past is never going to get unraveled to everyone's satisfaction, but it is worth saving thousands of innocent lives and ending the humanitarian disaster that is unfolding. That cannot happen without a ceasefire, because the bombardments only stiffen the resolve not to release hostages. The resolution calls for the release of hostages taken on October 7, not all Palestinians held captive in Israeli prisons. It remains to be seen how Hamas will react to this resolution, but Israel has immediately reacted against it. What is shocking to them is the loss of American support at the UN, and that is a shock that they were warned was coming. Israel is not going to eliminate Hamas anytime soon with its bombardment and attacks, but it will kill a lot more innocent people. So they need to try a different approach.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What should Israel do?

Opinion | What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?

If the current Israeli military approach is inhumane, is there an alternative?

www.nytimes.com

I've made this point before but this is someone who is in a position to get a better picture and they reach the same conclusion that I do--there aren't better answers.

And some actual answers as to why they are starving:

 

[repoman]

And I thought I was a nerd in a physiognomic way:



Throw these religious idiots into battle and give them something to pray about.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Throw these religious idiots into battle and give them something to pray about.

And accommodate their religious nuttery? Would they need a special helmet with a tefillah port? It seems like these folks would be more trouble then they're worth.
Then again, the Haredi make up over 13% of Israel's population and they're quite fond of making babies (average 7.2 babies per) so the complaints for military service are understandable.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

Since Hamas aren't likely to release the hostages, this resolution is worthless. This resolution is basically a free pass for Hamas to continue their rediculous victimhood narrative. So why wouldn't they. Nobody on the left in the west seems to reflect on the barbarity of that Hamas has still got hostages.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

Since Hamas aren't likely to release the hostages, this resolution is worthless. This resolution is basically a free pass for Hamas to continue their rediculous victimhood narrative. So why wouldn't they. Nobody on the left in the west seems to reflect on the barbarity of that Hamas has still got hostages.

No compromise coming from Hamas.

MSN

 

[laughing dog]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

Since Hamas aren't likely to release the hostages, this resolution is worthless. This resolution is basically a free pass for Hamas to continue their rediculous victimhood narrative. So why wouldn't they. Nobody on the left in the west seems to reflect on the barbarity of that Hamas has still got hostages.

No resolution from the UN of any type has the force of law. In that sense they are worthless. This one is basically the world shaking its finger at Israel for the resulting inhumane conditions in Gaza that their actions have caused. It doesn't take a leftist to notice that. It does take a human being with human feelings.

 

[Copernicus]

The UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of hostages, with the US abstaining from the vote. That is what allowed it to pass. In response, Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US to address both houses of Congress. This is long overdue, but it is a Security Council decision. It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu will obey it, and Hamas may not release the hostages if Israel won't comply.

U.N. Security Council passes resolution demanding immediate Hamas-Israel war cease-fire, release of hostages​

Since Hamas aren't likely to release the hostages, this resolution is worthless. This resolution is basically a free pass for Hamas to continue their rediculous victimhood narrative. So why wouldn't they. Nobody on the left in the west seems to reflect on the barbarity of that Hamas has still got hostages.

And Netanyahu has other reasons for not wanting the resolution to work. However, the resolution doesn't hurt, and its real value is the dash of cold water it splashes in Netanyahu's face. He is racing to pull off his Rafah attack, and everyone is warning him that it will just make the humanitarian catastrophe worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

More for you who persist in claiming Israel's fire is indiscriminate:

Israel Has Created a New Standard for Urban Warfare. No One Will Admit It

All available evidence shows that Israel has followed the laws of war, legal obligations, best practices in civilian harm mitigation and still found a way to reduce civilian casualties.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And Netanyahu has other reasons for not wanting the resolution to work. However, the resolution doesn't hurt, and its real value is the dash of cold water it splashes in Netanyahu's face. He is racing to pull off his Rafah attack, and everyone is warning him that it will just make the humanitarian catastrophe worse.

Hamas wants the humanitarian catastrophe. Blame them.