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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
I'm claiming intent, not capability.
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth there.
Are you saying they are lying when they say they intend to repeat 10/7 until Israel is gone?
Here is a something, why don't you try to respond to what I actually say, instead of asking hypotheticals that you have to know are likely false?
Of course, my point was regarding Iran, not Hamas. And aiming to keep the number of additional dead Israelis as close to zero as possible.
But your answer for Israeli "safety" has always been appeasement. Israel has had enough of the world saying appeasement is the answer.
It has? Your answer for Israeli "safety" has always been genocide. There. How is that? Wanna play more or actually have a discussion?

In my post that you quoted but didn't read, I explicitly stated I really didn't know what the appropriate response is. IDF obviously has all sorts of options available. As I noted, Israel would be in their right to respond. Iran didn't achieve much, but the intent was definitely there to kill Israelis. Something is necessary, but that is an upper Military/Intelligence thing, something I am not privy to being in the know. The IDF stopped taking my calls when they realized I wasn't really Simon Peres. I'd imagine the proper response is surgical, and likely doesn't kill anyone, but hurts Iran a lot.
 

If you want more, join the club. But be very careful what you wish for - do you really want the UN to be able to back all of its "laws" with military force?
No
I say Yes!
If the UN started to enforce all it's "Laws', evenly, this would be a better world.
But I don't that they will.

The UN will keep explaining why Israel is a villain and Hamas is the hero of the narrative.
Can provide actual evidence that the UN continually explains that Israel is a villain
Israel has been condemned 45 times by the UNHRC since 2006. More than any other nation.
The UNHRC is not the General Assembly, but okay.

According to the Times of Israel UN condemns Israel more than all other countries combined
Since 2015, the General Assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticizing Israel, mainly over its treatment of the Palestinians, its relationships with neighboring countries and other alleged wrongdoings. Over the same period, it has passed 68 resolutions against all other countries, UN Watch said.

and that Hamas is a hero?
Hamas been criticised once by the UN

That should be sufficient even for you as to how the UN views Israel as a villain.
The UN (and in fact, most adults) do not use the term "hero" or "villain" when discussing countries. I was actually interested to see what someone was conveying factual information.


If there was a kid in the local neighbourhood who has been arrested more often than every other kid on the estate put together, that could be evidence that the cops are unfairly picking on him.

But that's not the only possible explanation for the skewed arrest record. Even if that's his family's preferred narrative.
 
I'm claiming intent, not capability. Are you saying they are lying when they say they intend to repeat 10/7 until Israel is gone?
How many 10/7 attacks would it take to make Israel gone?
Quite a few.
I believe one way to view Israel's response is to see it as a declaration that Israel will destroy the Palestinians before they will allow Palestinians to drive them out.

Palestinians might choose to continue their own destruction, but that's not the only choice that they have.
Tom
 
I'm claiming intent, not capability. Are you saying they are lying when they say they intend to repeat 10/7 until Israel is gone?
How many 10/7 attacks would it take to make Israel gone?
Quite a few.
I believe one way to view Israel's response is to see it as a declaration that Israel will destroy the Palestinians before they will allow Palestinians to drive them out.

Palestinians might choose to continue their own destruction, but that's not the only choice that they have.
Tom
I'd say if the Israelis allowed another attack like 10/7 then they are profoundly stupid. Increased border patrols. Fast response teams in numerous small bases around the border. Video monitoring of the border and interior on the Gazan side.

The Hamas attack forced crossed a large amount of empty land to get to the border with that slow moving bulldozer. That should have and could have been seen a good deal of time before they got to the fence.
 
I'd say if the Israelis allowed another attack like 10/7 then they are profoundly stupid.
Cynic that I am,
I think it's most likely that Netanyahu allowed 10/7 attack to justify the pulverizing of Gaza. To give Hamas enough rope to hang the whole people. Thereby also serving notice to the rest of the enemies of Israel.
I know how cynical that is, but I think it's true.
Netanyahu is old, 75 IIRC. His political future is not much anyways. He has devoted his life to protecting Israel from it's neighbors. I think his plan was to launch mass destruction in Gaza, while he could. Hamas helped, possibly more than they realized. But they knew perfectly well that the Israeli response would be huge and violent.
They picked it anyway.
Tom
 
Netanyahu is old, 75 IIRC. His political future is not much anyways. He has devoted his life to protecting Israel from it's neighbors.
Has he? Netanyahu has devoted his life to Netanyahu's political career and his financial well being. Netanyahu has a salt and pepper relationship with Hamas. The goal with Netanyahu was never peace. After all, he did help fan the flames that got the Israeli PM Rabin murdered.
 
Netanyahu is old, 75 IIRC. His political future is not much anyways. He has devoted his life to protecting Israel from it's neighbors.
Has he? Netanyahu has devoted his life to Netanyahu's political career and his financial well being. Netanyahu has a salt and pepper relationship with Hamas. The goal with Netanyahu was never peace. After all, he did help fan the flames that got the Israeli PM Rabin murdered.
Yes.
Netanyahu has also lived his whole life as a survivor of the first war launched against Israel, moments after it came to be. I don't think Netanyahu has ever suffered from the delusion that Islamicists are interested in peace. So, of course, it's never been a goal.

Islamic neighbors have consistently demonstrated that his assessment is correct, most recently on October 7. But that's not the first time.
Tom
 
Netanyahu is old, 75 IIRC. His political future is not much anyways. He has devoted his life to protecting Israel from it's neighbors.
Has he? Netanyahu has devoted his life to Netanyahu's political career and his financial well being. Netanyahu has a salt and pepper relationship with Hamas. The goal with Netanyahu was never peace. After all, he did help fan the flames that got the Israeli PM Rabin murdered.
Yes.
Netanyahu has also lived his whole life as a survivor of the first war launched against Israel, moments after it came to be. I don't think Netanyahu has ever suffered from the delusion that Islamicists are interested in peace. So, of course, it's never been a goal.

Islamic neighbors have consistently demonstrated that his assessment is correct, most recently on October 7. But that's not the first time.
Tom

So, are you saying that all "Islamic neighbors" are specialists in the study of Islam, or did you just misspell Islamist?

Personally, I think that a lot of people are suffering from the delusion that Netanyahu wants peace. Keeping this war going is keeping him out of court and possibly out of jail.

Israel rocked by largest protests since war began as Netanyahu faces growing pressure

 
So, are you saying that all "Islamic neighbors" are specialists in the study of Islam, or did you just misspell Islamist?
I'm absolutely certain that I didn't use the word "all" anywhere in my post.

That's a huge part of the problem though. It doesn't matter how many adherents of "The Religion of Peace" use violence as their preferred method, a small number can create a huge disaster. It's not different from the Christians who worship the "Prince of Peace", then busy with the war and oppression.
Tom
 
Netanyahu is old, 75 IIRC. His political future is not much anyways. He has devoted his life to protecting Israel from it's neighbors.
Has he? Netanyahu has devoted his life to Netanyahu's political career and his financial well being. Netanyahu has a salt and pepper relationship with Hamas. The goal with Netanyahu was never peace. After all, he did help fan the flames that got the Israeli PM Rabin murdered.
Yes.
Netanyahu has also lived his whole life as a survivor of the first war launched against Israel, moments after it came to be. I don't think Netanyahu has ever suffered from the delusion that Islamicists are interested in peace. So, of course, it's never been a goal.
Islamic neighbors to the north and southwest haven't been as nutty as they were in the beginning. It was proof that peace is possible. Sure, we have to pay off the Egyptian military, give Jordan lots of money, but it happened. We had the agreement in the 90s that Netanyahu helped get Rabin assassinated over. That was likely the chance that was squandered. I also feel the Hamas election was the final domino in that it wasn't even given a shot.

Peace with terrorists is a tough deal. But it isn't unprecedented, and using the past to perpetually justify more violence will never end the cycle. And Israelis and Palestinians will suffer as a result.

As things stand now, I can't see there being a peace. And Netanyahu is a significant piece in the puzzle as to why.
 
Personally, I think that a lot of people are suffering from the delusion that Netanyahu wants peace.
I think he does want peace. But not at the cost of the destruction of Israel. That appears to be the only way Israel's neighbors are willing to accept peace.

So that's the reality. Has been for decades and more. It was just as true before Israel existed, Jewish people were under constant attacks. It's kinda the formative world view for Zionists. Discrimination, pogroms, death camps, Zionists are refugees from the Christian -Muslim culture they've been surrounded by for centuries. It was purpose built to protect Jewish people from their countries and governments.
Tom
 
Islamic neighbors to the north and southwest haven't been as nutty as they were in the beginning. It was proof that peace is possible.
Because they got their asses kicked a few times.
I think Netanyahu learned that lesson. He doesn't suffer from the delusion that Israel's neighbors will be peaceful except at gunpoint. Give them a chance to attack and they will.
Iran just proved it.
Tom
 
Islamic neighbors to the north and southwest haven't been as nutty as they were in the beginning. It was proof that peace is possible.
Because they got their asses kicked a few times.
And the money. But it is still working decades later.
I think Netanyahu learned that lesson. He doesn't suffer from the delusion that Israel's neighbors will be peaceful except at gunpoint. Give them a chance to attack and they will.
Egypt and Jordan haven't attacked since the peace deal.
Iran just proved it.
Iran isn't a neighbor. In fact, they are pretty far away. It is why they need Hamas to do their dirty work. The same Hamas that Netanyahu wanted to delegitimize the Palestinian government. Boy did he ever get that in spades.
 
And the money. But it is still working decades later.
Too bad all that money Gazans have gotten didn't work.
I'd say cut them off. No aid until they demonstrate that they are not planning another attack. And then it should come from the people who effed them up, like Iran.
Egypt and Jordan haven't attacked since the peace deal.
And they still know what will happen if they do.
Check out Gaza for more information.
Iran isn't a neighbor. In fact, they are pretty far away. It is why they need Hamas to do their dirty work. The same Hamas that Netanyahu wanted to delegitimize the Palestinian government. Boy did he ever get that in spades.
It's a small world. Iran is sufficiently a neighbor to fund massive violence against Israel. Offer hospitality to Hamas leadership all the way to Syria. Etc.

Yeah, at the risk of appearing cynical, Netanyahu got what he wanted from Hamas. Enough Gazan attacks to justify the pulverizing of Gaza.

And here we are. Netanyahu got what he wanted because Hamas handed it to him.
Makes him look smart and a long range strategic planner.
Tom
 

If you want more, join the club. But be very careful what you wish for - do you really want the UN to be able to back all of its "laws" with military force?
No
I say Yes!
If the UN started to enforce all it's "Laws', evenly, this would be a better world.
But I don't that they will.

The UN will keep explaining why Israel is a villain and Hamas is the hero of the narrative.
Can provide actual evidence that the UN continually explains that Israel is a villain
Israel has been condemned 45 times by the UNHRC since 2006. More than any other nation.
The UNHRC is not the General Assembly, but okay.

According to the Times of Israel UN condemns Israel more than all other countries combined
Since 2015, the General Assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticizing Israel, mainly over its treatment of the Palestinians, its relationships with neighboring countries and other alleged wrongdoings. Over the same period, it has passed 68 resolutions against all other countries, UN Watch said.

and that Hamas is a hero?
Hamas been criticised once by the UN

That should be sufficient even for you as to how the UN views Israel as a villain.
The UN (and in fact, most adults) do not use the term "hero" or "villain" when discussing countries. I was actually interested to see what someone was conveying factual information.


If there was a kid in the local neighbourhood who has been arrested more often than every other kid on the estate put together, that could be evidence that the cops are unfairly picking on him.

But that's not the only possible explanation for the skewed arrest record. Even if that's his family's preferred narrative.

There's another dimension to these types of analogies as well. Suppose, instead of an arrest record, we're talking about police issuing warnings, no arrests at all. I introduce this hypothetical because the UN as an entity has done many different kinds of things and among them, there are sanctions, approval of troop deployments (I think), and condemnations....the latter being a kind of rhetorical device with no real actionable consequences. So, a police force issuing some 50 warnings to some kid might make one wonder why the kid has no harsh consequences but just mere warnings. Sure, could the cops be picking on him? Or could the cops be stopped from applying more appropriate actions because the kid is protected? Or maybe the kid has severe issues and so the police often excuse it but just are not equipped to deal with it. Maybe the kid needs a full-time team of social workers. I am not imaginative enough to come up with all the possible reasons why a kid might have so many warnings, but, yeah, just because he has so many warnings does not necessarily mean the police are acting evilly against the kid, but especially so because warnings are not that severe in the first place.
 
Here's an analogy.
Putin is to Teaparty as Netanyahu is to Hamas.
In both cases the parties seem more like natural enemies than allies. But in reality, Putin got what he wanted from "Republicans", and Netanyahu got what he wanted from "Hamas".
And there you have it. Smart, long range, people get what they want while the rest of us dither and talk about what should be, rather than what is.
Tom
 
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Palestinian paramedics said Israel gave them safe passage to save a 6-year-old girl in Gaza. They were all killed.

For three-and-a-half long hours on Jan. 29, the cellphone in 6-year old Hind Rajab’s hands was the closest thing she had to a lifeline. Alone in the back seat of a car outside a Gaza City gas station, she was drifting in and out of consciousness, surrounded by bodies, as she told emergency dispatchers that Israeli tanks were rumbling closer.

From the operations room of the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), roughly 50 miles away in the city of Ramallah, the team on duty had done their best to save the child. Paramedics were on their way, the dispatchers kept telling her: Hold on.

The paramedics were driving to their deaths.

Twelve days later, when a Palestinian civil defense crew finally reached the area, they found Hind’s body in a car riddled with bullets, according to her uncle, Samir Hamada, who also arrived at the scene early that morning. The ambulance lay charred roughly 50 meters away (about 164 feet) from the car, its destruction consistent with the use of a round fired by Israeli tanks, according to six munitions experts.

In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces said they conducted a preliminary investigation and that its forces were “not present near the vehicle or within the firing range” of the Hamada family car. Nor, they said, had they been required to provide the ambulance permission to enter the area. The State Department said it has raised the case repeatedly with the Israelis. “The Israelis told us there had, in fact, been IDF units in the area, but the IDF had no knowledge of or involvement in the type of strike described,” said spokesman Matt Miller.

A Washington Post investigation found that Israeli armored vehicles were present in the area in the afternoon, and that gunfire audible as Hind and her cousin Layan begged for help, as well as extensive damage caused to the ambulance, are consistent with Israeli weapons. The analysis is based on satellite imagery, contemporaneous dispatcher recordings, photos and videos of the aftermath, interviews with 13 dispatchers, family members and rescue workers, and more than a dozen military, satellite, munitions and audio experts who reviewed the evidence, as well as the IDF’s own statements.
 
Yeah, it is the "fog of war" that causes the IDF to kill aid workers of all types. :rolleyesa:
What fog of war?
Gazans regularly use aid workers to accomplish their goals.

Call them Hamas if it makes you feel better. But the bottom line remains, IDF has a mandate. Israeli security.
That's not placating the international community or the supporters of Muslim violence.
If aid workers want more safety, one way would be GET RID OF HAMAS.
But apparently nobody wants that enough.
Tom
 
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