Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

Honestly, I have no idea

I agree.

The difference is that I realize it.
Tom

That is a self rebuttal.

It's a rebuttal of people claiming to know what will happen.

I honestly believe that Palestinian state hood would almost entirely benefit the most violent and corrupt of the Palestinian leadership, like Hamas. Rather like letting Russia defeat Ukraine. It would be solid evidence that violence pays.
Therefore I would expect more of it.
Tom

There is no need to confirm you have no idea.

Tell me again
What makes you think that you do?
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Never happen. There are places that are sacred to both the Israelis and the Muslims. Neither side will give them up. All this goes back to fucking religion. If religious beliefs went away so would this shit storm.

 

[laughing dog]

Honestly, I have no idea

I agree.

The difference is that I realize it.
Tom

That is a self rebuttal.

It's a rebuttal of people claiming to know what will happen.

I honestly believe that Palestinian state hood would almost entirely benefit the most violent and corrupt of the Palestinian leadership, like Hamas. Rather like letting Russia defeat Ukraine. It would be solid evidence that violence pays.
Therefore I would expect more of it.
Tom

There is no need to confirm you have no idea.

Tell me again
What makes you think that you do?
Tom

History and reasoning.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have you explained the faked attack? Do you even have enough understanding of military stuff to understand why I called one of the strikes fake?

The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?

They have apologized before for things later shown to be fake. If it's possible for them to have done it they tend to apologize before all the facts are in.

And it's only one of the three that's clearly faked. The others we do not know.

We have more evidence the IDF killed the food aid workers and the 3 Israeli hostages than you have that any incident was faked.

I've already pointed out why one of the strikes is fake. Like with the ambulance some years ago the press never picked up on it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas launched the attack and Hamas terrorists did the raping, killing and kidnapping. . Civilians did not.

The line is blurred. It appears some civilians joined in with the hope of getting the $10k reward for capturing hostages.

Then they weren’t civilians . Duh.

Disagree--they were not otherwise combatants. They just saw a way to make some bucks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Never happen. There are places that are sacred to both the Israelis and the Muslims. Neither side will give them up. All this goes back to fucking religion. If religious beliefs went away so would this shit storm.

Israel is willing to share--plenty of Muslims visit the Dome. The Palestinians aren't--Jews can't visit things under Palestinian control.

And we have the little detail that Hamas actually fired on the Dome (no doubt by accident, they were simply lobbing rockets at Jerusalem.) Yet Israel expended an interceptor to protect the Dome.

 

[TomC]

Disagree--they were not otherwise combatants. They just saw a way to make some bucks.

What?
Mercenaries are definitely combatants. Among the worst kind, IMHO.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Have you explained the faked attack? Do you even have enough understanding of military stuff to understand why I called one of the strikes fake?

The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?

They have apologized before for things later shown to be fake. If it's possible for them to have done it they tend to apologize before all the facts are in.

And it's only one of the three that's clearly faked. The others we do not know.

We have more evidence the IDF killed the food aid workers and the 3 Israeli hostages than you have that any incident was faked.

I've already pointed out why one of the strikes is fake. Like with the ambulance some years ago the press never picked up on it.

You've handwaved away evidence. If the past is any guide, you will continue to handwave away any evidence that disagrees with your bias.

 

[bilby]

Never happen. There are places that are sacred to both the Israelis and the Muslims. Neither side will give them up. All this goes back to fucking religion. If religious beliefs went away so would this shit storm.

Israel is willing to share--plenty of Muslims visit the Dome. The Palestinians aren't--Jews can't visit things under Palestinian control.

And we have the little detail that Hamas actually fired on the Dome (no doubt by accident, they were simply lobbing rockets at Jerusalem.) Yet Israel expended an interceptor to protect the Dome.

Fuck that. The whole world would benefit if Jerusalem were off-limits to everyone, permanently.

Evacuate the city, and nuke it with a Cobalt jacketed dirty bomb, so nobody can go back. That's my plan for peace in the Middle East.

When two toddlers are squabbling over a toy, the solution is to confiscate the toy.

There is no such thing as a holy site. Because there are no gods.

 

[TomC]

Evacuate the city, and nuke it with a Cobalt jacketed dirty bomb, so nobody can go back. That's my plan for peace in the Middle East.

I once said something similar on a religious forum.

"Best thing for Peace in Israel is a dirty bomb on temple Mount".

Boy oh boy, did people disagree!

And, "Well, God could stop it from exploding if He wants to do so." didn't really help matters.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Never happen. There are places that are sacred to both the Israelis and the Muslims. Neither side will give them up. All this goes back to fucking religion. If religious beliefs went away so would this shit storm.

Israel is willing to share--plenty of Muslims visit the Dome. The Palestinians aren't--Jews can't visit things under Palestinian control.

And we have the little detail that Hamas actually fired on the Dome (no doubt by accident, they were simply lobbing rockets at Jerusalem.) Yet Israel expended an interceptor to protect the Dome.

Fuck that. The whole world would benefit if Jerusalem were off-limits to everyone, permanently.

Evacuate the city, and nuke it with a Cobalt jacketed dirty bomb, so nobody can go back. That's my plan for peace in the Middle East.

When two toddlers are squabbling over a toy, the solution is to confiscate the toy.

There is no such thing as a holy site. Because there are no gods.

Yeah, that'll be a hard sell. But good luck with it.

 

[TomC]

Yeah, that'll be a hard sell. But good luck with it.

Here in the modern world you only need to sell it to a tiny group of people to get it done.
It only took 19 determined people to accomplish 9/11. McVeigh and Nichols blew up a federal building in Oklahoma

If a couple of people had access to nuclear waste and few more people would help, they could render the temple Mount uninhabitable for centuries.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Disagree--they were not otherwise combatants. They just saw a way to make some bucks.

What?
Mercenaries are definitely combatants. Among the worst kind, IMHO.
Tom

Mercenaries? More akin to looters. They didn't go there to fight, they went to kidnap when the defenses were down.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have you explained the faked attack? Do you even have enough understanding of military stuff to understand why I called one of the strikes fake?

The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?

They have apologized before for things later shown to be fake. If it's possible for them to have done it they tend to apologize before all the facts are in.

And it's only one of the three that's clearly faked. The others we do not know.

We have more evidence the IDF killed the food aid workers and the 3 Israeli hostages than you have that any incident was faked.

I've already pointed out why one of the strikes is fake. Like with the ambulance some years ago the press never picked up on it.

You've handwaved away evidence. If the past is any guide, you will continue to handwave away any evidence that disagrees with your bias.

I pointed out what was wrong with it, I didn't handwave it. There's no missile out there that will punch a hole like that and do basically nothing else--just look at missiles: tiny fins, nothing that looks much like a wing. That gives a very high minimum airspeed. Even a inert round will be moving fast enough to do more than that. Also, the hole is round--that would mean the missile was coming straight down. Not likely. When I saw that picture a previous incident with an ambulance came to mind. Same round hole in the roof, but with the ambulance in time it was realized there was rust on the edges and the metal was bent up--clearly, there had once been some round thing that was removed long before it was used for a Pallyworld prop. My memory is that they apologized over the ambulance, also.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Never happen. There are places that are sacred to both the Israelis and the Muslims. Neither side will give them up. All this goes back to fucking religion. If religious beliefs went away so would this shit storm.

Israel is willing to share--plenty of Muslims visit the Dome. The Palestinians aren't--Jews can't visit things under Palestinian control.

And we have the little detail that Hamas actually fired on the Dome (no doubt by accident, they were simply lobbing rockets at Jerusalem.) Yet Israel expended an interceptor to protect the Dome.

Fuck that. The whole world would benefit if Jerusalem were off-limits to everyone, permanently.

Evacuate the city, and nuke it with a Cobalt jacketed dirty bomb, so nobody can go back. That's my plan for peace in the Middle East.

When two toddlers are squabbling over a toy, the solution is to confiscate the toy.

There is no such thing as a holy site. Because there are no gods.

It wouldn't help.

The Mount was rather in disrepair before 1948. It's not that they really want it, it's that they don't want the Jews to have it.

And cobalt seeing it wouldn't do anything about the overall war--because the driving force is they can't stand to have lost land to the Jews.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, that'll be a hard sell. But good luck with it.

Here in the modern world you only need to sell it to a tiny group of people to get it done.
It only took 19 determined people to accomplish 9/11. McVeigh and Nichols blew up a federal building in Oklahoma

If a couple of people had access to nuclear waste and few more people would help, they could render the temple Mount uninhabitable for centuries.
Tom

Dirty bombs are mostly a thing of Hollywood. To be hot enough to actually make an area dangerous would mean it was hot enough the people trying to use it wouldn't live to do it.

I've worked the numbers--obey quickly and you might live. Hotter than anything a terrorist could possibly use (stick that in your pocket and you'll never make it out of the building)--but how much would that contaminate???

 

[Derec]

I've worked the numbers--obey quickly and you might live.

It's far less dangerous now. 1963 --> 2024 is ~11 halflives or 1/2048th of the original activity. So it's a ~1.5 Cu source now. Still not good to keep in your pocket but if not breached and if handled for a short time, probably ok.

When it was fresh, you would be right. Co-60 is radioactive enough to be very dangerous but has a half-life (5.27 years) long enough to contaminate an area for a long time. Hence the plans to have a Co-59 (non-radioactive) third stage of a nuke that would get activated with neutrons and contaminate a wide area long-term. Alternatives are using U238 (increase of explosive yield via fast fission) and nothing (high neutron flux kills people directly with smaller explosive yield, the so called neutron bomb).

As to using it in a dirty bomb - I think it definitely could be done. Store it in some lead until ready to assemble. Use some disposable idiot for final assembly - preferably one who doesn't know much about radiation. Use another idiot to put in in place. Who cares if they drop dead later? They will get their virgins - or so they believe.

As to how much it could contaminate - the wider the area of dispersion, the less the contamination. CO60 is far more deadly spread out than in a capsule. The biggest problem is the α radiation when ingested or inhaled. Even in small doses it could cause damage and even deaths.
Also note the public's fear of all things radiation. You would not need that much actual radiation to cause widespread panic and property values to drop for decades. A dirty bomb is a panic and fear weapon much more than one that causes direct harm, so you would not necessarily need that much radioactive material for it to be effective.

 

[TomC]

As to using it in a dirty bomb - I think it definitely could be done. Store it in some lead until ready to assemble. Use some disposable idiot for final assembly - preferably one who doesn't know much about radiation. Use another idiot to put in in place. Who cares if they drop dead later? They will get their virgins - or so they believe.

Given modern advances in robotics and drones, I don't think anyone has to be within 100 yards of the device to deliver the bomb to the target.

It's one of the scary things about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The degree to which drones are advancing, becoming both cheap and effective.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Have you explained the faked attack? Do you even have enough understanding of military stuff to understand why I called one of the strikes fake?

The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?

They have apologized before for things later shown to be fake. If it's possible for them to have done it they tend to apologize before all the facts are in.

And it's only one of the three that's clearly faked. The others we do not know.

We have more evidence the IDF killed the food aid workers and the 3 Israeli hostages than you have that any incident was faked.

I've already pointed out why one of the strikes is fake. Like with the ambulance some years ago the press never picked up on it.

You've handwaved away evidence. If the past is any guide, you will continue to handwave away any evidence that disagrees with your bias.

I pointed out what was wrong with it, I didn't handwave it.....

You pointed out what you feel is wrong with it by playing on likelihoods. You are neither unbiased nor a military expert. You dismiss any hint that the IDF may have done something wrong. There is no compelling rationale to accept your apologia over an IDF apology.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've worked the numbers--obey quickly and you might live.

It's far less dangerous now. 1963 --> 2024 is ~11 halflives or 1/2048th of the original activity. So it's a ~1.5 Cu source now. Still not good to keep in your pocket but if not breached and if handled for a short time, probably ok.

Yeah, I'm talking about when it was new.

As to using it in a dirty bomb - I think it definitely could be done. Store it in some lead until ready to assemble. Use some disposable idiot for final assembly - preferably one who doesn't know much about radiation. Use another idiot to put in in place. Who cares if they drop dead later? They will get their virgins - or so they believe.

The problem is 10x the lethal dose very quickly incapacitates. I'm assuming they have suicide people available, or dupes that don't know what they're dealing with, but they have to live long enough to do the job and they won't.

As to how much it could contaminate - the wider the area of dispersion, the less the contamination. CO60 is far more deadly spread out than in a capsule. The biggest problem is the α radiation when ingested or inhaled. Even in small doses it could cause damage and even deaths.
Also note the public's fear of all things radiation. You would not need that much actual radiation to cause widespread panic and property values to drop for decades. A dirty bomb is a panic and fear weapon much more than one that causes direct harm, so you would not necessarily need that much radioactive material for it to be effective.

Yeah, it's the fear and contamination, it's not going to kill anyone.