Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

Ah, you mean like people who equate current IDF action with self- defense.

Put Israeli self defense in a big picture, like a century or so, and yeah. IDF is defending Jewish people a whole lot better than the Christian and Muslim world did prior to Oct 7.
Much less the mid 20th century, or the 21st century.
Fuck the American students chanting "We are Hamas" on university campuses now. What they are chanting is "We are Islamic terrorists", whether they realize it or not.
Tom

 

[bilby]

What do you think “ myopic” means?

Well, if a biopic is a movie about a person, myopic ought to be a movie about a fungus.

 

[Arctish]

Ah, you mean like people who equate current IDF action with self- defense.

Put Israeli self defense in a big picture, like a century or so, and yeah. IDF is defending Jewish people a whole lot better than the Christian and Muslim world did prior to Oct 7.
Much less the mid 20th century, or the 21st century.
Fuck the American students chanting "We are Hamas" on university campuses now. What they are chanting is "We are Islamic terrorists", whether they realize it or not.
Tom

If it's students chanting that, and if they're not dishonest asshats trying to get others arrested.

Remember, we've already seen the report of a pro-Israel shit-stirrer shouting "Kill the Jews!" at a peace rally so the students there would be arrested and their protest shut down by the police.

 

[TomC]

If it's students chanting that, and if they're not dishonest asshats trying to get others arrested.

Remember, we've already seen the report of a pro-Israel shit-stirrer shouting "Kill the Jews!" at a peace rally so the students there would be arrested and their protest shut down by the police.

Yeah, kinda a problem with this sort of thing.

Do the people know what they are saying and doing? I dunno.
I remember being a student of university age. I was quite naive, stupid really.

Luckily for me, it was the late 70s, early 80s. And I was busy getting through school, no time for trashing the place.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

But to address your post, if Islamic terrorists like Hamas stopped inciting violence this would end. But they of choose to continue. So it won't. The Palestinians keep the blood feud going on.
Tom

If this is your idea of balanced and nuanced posting, we have very different views on those terms.

The slow persistence in ethnic cleansing in the West Bank had been going on for decades. It is one of a multitude of factors contributing to the ongoing blood feud. It isn’t all at the hands of the Palestinians.

It's a response to one post.
One of many anti-zionist posts. But I have tried, over and over, to be nuanced and balanced. I find myself, often, trying to rebalance the vicious anti-jewish bigotry of many other people.

The Muslim attacks on Israel have also been going on for decades. It's kinda like a continuation of the attacks that resulted in Israel in the first place.
Except now, Jews can defend themselves. And they're doing so. Even when it's not politically correct.
Tom

Defending yourself is politically correct. Murdering people who don't have to die in order for you to defend yourself is not.

The kind of threat you are facing and the proportionality of your response to it are also factors. You can't just point to some group of people, claim they are poisoning your culture and want to cheat you out of an inheritance from God, and use that as an excuse to bomb a maternity ward in a hospital.

No one in this thread has said, or even implied, that Jews don't have a right to defend themselves.

No one in this thread has said, or even implied, that Israelis don't have a right to defend themselves.

People have questioned the way the war is being conducted and the necessity of killing tens of thousands of civilians. They have questioned whether Zionists can be said to be merely defending themselves when they continue to displace Palestinians and seize their assets and resources. They question the plans of the Netanyahu led government for Gaza going forward. Is Netanyahu seriously considering more bombing and ethnic cleansing so Jared Kushner can build condominiums on Gaza's waterfront? If so, that's not just politically incorrect, it's an outrage.

 

[TomC]

You can't just point to some group of people, claim they are poisoning your culture and want to cheat you out of an inheritance from God, and use that as an excuse to bomb a maternity ward in a hospital.

Who did that?
Tom

 

[TomC]

People have questioned the way the war is being conducted and the necessity of killing tens of thousands of civilians.

And when some of us point out that the war is being conducted is a result of Gazan leadership choices people get upset.
It's not fair to point out that Gazans caused this disaster.
It was only some Gazans.
Bullshit. It's violent Muslim terrorists who chose this.

The reason tens of thousands of Gazans have died is because violent terrorists launched the October 7 attack and then viciously used Gazans as human shields. And I expect that tens of thousands more will die soon because violent Muslim terrorists will use more Gazans as human shields in Rafah quite soon.

Too bad nobody cares enough to deal with Hamas and their international supporters, but they don't.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

You can't just point to some group of people, claim they are poisoning your culture and want to cheat you out of an inheritance from God, and use that as an excuse to bomb a maternity ward in a hospital.

Who did that?
Tom

Who did what? Who pointed to a group of people and claim those 'others' were poisoning their culture? I'm pretty sure you know who, and that millions of Jews were unsuccessful at escaping them.

Who were the people claiming that 'others' were trying to cheat them out of an inheritance from God? There's a pretty long list. Americans who believed in Manifest Destiny, Jews who believe Abraham's god gave Palestine to them, Muslims who believe Abraham's god gave it to the descendants of Abraham's eldest son Ishmael, Christians who believe the son of Abraham's god wants Jews to have it just long enough to rebuild a temple so his holy self can stomp the shit out of everyone who isn't a believer in him, etc.

Who bombed a maternity ward? Recently the Russians and the IDF have bombed and carried out assaults and strikes at hospitals, including those with maternity wards. I'm sure even a shallow dip into history will reveal other instances.

Anyway, I think you may have missed the forest by focusing on the trees. Self defense is politically correct. A disproportionate response that needlessly kills tens of thousands of civilians is not.

Israel's response to the terror attack in October looks grossly disproportionate.

 

[Arctish]

People have questioned the way the war is being conducted and the necessity of killing tens of thousands of civilians.

And when some of us point out that the war is being conducted is a result of Gazan leadership choices people get upset.
It's not fair to point out that Gazans caused this disaster.
It was only some Gazans.
Bullshit. It's violent Muslim terrorists who chose this.

The reason tens of thousands of Gazans have died is because violent terrorists launched the October 7 attack and then viciously used Gazans as human shields. And I expect that tens of thousands more will die soon because violent Muslim terrorists will use more Gazans as human shields in Rafah quite soon.

Too bad nobody cares enough to deal with Hamas and their international supporters, but they don't.
Tom

We know the current outbreak of war started with the terror attack inside Israel!!!!

Jeezy Creeezy, how many times do we have to repeat the same damn thing before any of it sinks in?

No one here supports Hamas or wants them to remain in power. We know Hamas has to be defeated for there to be any chance at peace.

We also know that if it was tens of thousands of Israeli Jews being killed because violent Zionist settlers in the West Bank murdered Palestinian civilians, some of the most ardent pro-war apologists here would be singing a completely different tune because they know self defense is not an excuse for mass slaughter even when they're trying to use it as one.

 

[TomC]

No one here supports Hamas or wants them to remain in power. We know Hamas has to be defeated for there to be any chance at peace.

Israel is working on defeating Muslim terrorists like Hamas.

What else is anyone doing?
Tom

 

[Arctish]

No one here supports Hamas or wants them to remain in power. We know Hamas has to be defeated for there to be any chance at peace.

Israel is working on defeating Muslim terrorists like Hamas.

What else is anyone doing?
Tom

I have no idea what the CIA, MI6, the DGSE, Interpol, or any other intelligence service is doing about them, but I'm pretty certain it isn't "nothing".

And again, working on defeating Hamas is not a justification for slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians, it's just the excuse for doing it.

 

[laughing dog]

And again, working on defeating Hamas is not a justification for slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians, it's just the excuse for doing it.

QFT.

 

[TomC]

And again, working on defeating Hamas is not a justification for slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians, it's just the excuse for doing it.

Similarly,
Protecting yourself against the country you just assaulted isn't a justification for using 2M civilians as human shields.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And again, working on defeating Hamas is not a justification for slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians, it's just the excuse for doing it.

Similarly,
Protecting yourself against the country you just assaulted isn't a justification for using 2M civilians as human shields.
Tom

Hamas using population centers as a manner of protection doesn't free up any nation's obligation to not target civilian population centers without substantially important reasons., generally the ticking nuclear bomb sort of thing. The cost of civilian losses must be weighed very heavily against the strategic gain of the attack.

Hamas has no rights, especially in light of the kidnappings. Their right to exist is gone. But that isn't a green light to shoulder shrugging substantial civilian casualties, especially when considering almost no attack in Rafah is going to "end Hamas".

 

[TomC]

Hamas has no rights, especially in light of the kidnappings. Their right to exist is gone. But that isn't a green light to shoulder shrugging substantial civilian casualties, especially when considering almost no attack in Rafah is going to "end Hamas".

Here's another bit of subtlety.
I don't think Israel is really targeting Hamas, exactly. What they are targeting is the military installations and ability to rebuild them. It would not matter if another group started rebuilding it, it would still be aimed at Israel.

That's the possibility that Israel is responding to.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Biden Is Not the First U.S. President to Cut Off Weapons to Israel

WASHINGTON — The president was livid. He had just been shown pictures of civilians killed by Israeli shelling, including a small baby with an arm blown off. He ordered aides to get the Israeli prime minister on the phone and then dressed him down sharply. The president was Ronald Reagan, the...

sg.news.yahoo.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hamas has no rights, especially in light of the kidnappings. Their right to exist is gone. But that isn't a green light to shoulder shrugging substantial civilian casualties, especially when considering almost no attack in Rafah is going to "end Hamas".

Here's another bit of subtlety.
I don't think Israel is really targeting Hamas, exactly. What they are targeting is the military installations and ability to rebuild them.

This is Hamas, not some state with actual military infrastructure.

There can be caches and the like, but how many civilians need to die to slow down Hamas or whatever alternatives are out there? Again, the civilian toll needs to be weighed against the security gain.

 

[TomC]

Hamas using population centers as a manner of protection doesn't free up any nation's obligation to not target civilian population centers without substantially important reasons.,

I don't think anyone is targeting civilian populations except Gazans.
Hamas is a Gazan leadership group.

Israeli security requires destruction of the Gazan military installations. Hamas' choices to protect themselves and their military installations with Gazan human shields is responsible for the huge death and destruction going on in Gaza.
Tom

 

[Derec]

Here are more examples of choices, this time by President Biden:

President Joe Biden said for the first time Wednesday he would halt some shipments of American weapons to Israel – which he acknowledged have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a major invasion of the city of Rafah.

This is both bad policy and bad politics.
Bad policy: it is necessary to invade Rafah and destroy remaining Hamas battalions and Hamas infrastructure (such as tunnels) there. Of course, care should be taken to minimize civilian casualties, but a "major invasion" is necessary to finish the job.
Bad politics: it is unlikely this change will be enough for the "Death to America" crowd in Dearborn or "We are all Hamas, bitch" crowd in Columbia. Or any other "Genocide Joe" crowds for that matter. On the other hand, it will most likely turn off pro-Israelc moderates and independents. Some Dems are already speaking out against the move:
House Democrats push back on Israel arms pause

A group of 26 House Democrats are pushing back on President Biden’s decision this week to halt the sending of heavy bombs to Israel amid fears of an Israeli invasion into Rafah, which is home to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians displaced amid the war in Gaza.
“We are deeply concerned about the message the Administration is sending to Hamas and other Iranian-backed terrorist proxies by withholding weapons shipments to Israel, during a critical moment in the negotiations,” reads the letter, which is addressed to White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan.

If Biden loses in November, this may be where he lost it.

Back to your link.

“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week.

Civilians die in wars. Especially when the unscrupulous enemy places military infrastructure among, and under, civilians. Heavy bombs are necessary to destroy Hamas tunnels and other fortified infrastructure. Blame should be placed where it belongs - at the feet of Hamas - and not at IDF or the bomb shipments.

“I made it clear that if they go into Rafah – they haven’t gone in Rafah yet – if they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities – that deal with that problem,” Biden said.

But the problem must be dealt with. Otherwise Hamas will just reemerge and be more emboldened to keep attacking Israel.

The president’s announcement that he was prepared to condition American weaponry on Israel’s actions amounts to a turning point in the seven-month conflict between Israel and Hamas. And his acknowledgement that American bombs had been used to kill civilians in Gaza was a stark recognition of the United States’ role in the war.

He is regenging on his statements that Hamas must be destroyed.
Biden says Hamas must be eliminated, US officials warn of escalation
After displaying moral courage in October, Biden is displaying just as much moral cowardice now!\

Until now, the president had resisted those calls and strongly supported Israel’s efforts to go after Hamas. Yet a looming invasion of Rafah, the city in southern Gaza where more than a million Palestinian civilians have been sheltering, appears to have shifted the president’s calculus.

More like finger arithmetic than calculus, to be fair.

 

[TomC]

This is Hamas, not some state with actual military infrastructure.

Then, can we agree that October 7 was a Gazan assault on Israel?
Tom