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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Sorry if my flippant tongue-in-cheek response stung, but you made a ridiculous analogy with Nazi Germany
It's not a ridiculous analogy. The parallels between violent Islamic autocracies and the Nazis are striking.
Much more than just their attitude towards Jews.
Tom
 
For low-level militants, the targeting officers preferred to use dumb bombs that can destroy entire buildings. “You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people — it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],” one Israeli officer said. That likely explains all the dumb bombs dropped in the war.
Maybe Biden should authorize more high tech bombs being sent to Israel rather than limiting them to appease extremists in his own party.

As to the casualty numbers, UN seems to have reduced the numbers of estimated female and minor fatalities.

UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed

Jerusalem Post said:
On May 6, the UN published data showing that 34,735 people had reportedly been killed in Gaza, including over 9,500 women and over 14,500 children.
On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children.
[...]
The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).

Note again that "children" here means everybody under 18, not just actual children. And Hamas et al like to recruit younger teenagers, so many of these "children" are really combatants.

It is obvious you have some points and while this is usually true, you also have some fictions and desires of things to be true that are not. These all get mixed together into a mush and then people respond to the parts that are untrue while your supporters only focus on true portions and highlight those.

So let me state some of the true parts: Hamas is evil. Hamas might have minors in their membership. And some PORTION of the numbers might be Hamas minors. It is very likely and we could try to do some back of napkin estimates for this. And also it is true that the percents are different.

Now, to the fictitious parts that you've copied from a misleading source of information. This section here:
On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children.
[...]
The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).

There are TWO DIFFERENT DENOMINATORS:
  • Denominator#1: 34K people, those are bodies of dead people.
  • Denominator#2: 24686 dead people who have specifically been identified, i.e. their names and identifying personal info have become known, i.e. beyond a mere physical form of identifying the body's demographics.

The 4949 women and 7797 children are out of DENOMINATOR#2, i.e. 24686, not out of DENOMINATOR#1, i.e. 34,844 people.

So a statement that:
On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children.

ought to read more like
While there are reportedly 34,844 killed, out of those very specifically identified (24686), 4959 are women, 7797 children, and 10,000 men.

Writing it as if it is out of DENOMINATOR#1, makes it appear that the vast majority are men, even if it is apparent that it is a plurality as mentioned. This makes the bizarre statement a lie by omission that leads to something misleading.

When you ignore the denominators, it allows you to charge that one numerator is only half of the next numerator and give it a title of:

UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed​


Again, 14500 is out of 34735 and 7797 is out of 24686. We do not then mathematically say that 14500 should be compared to 7797. Mathematically, we might predict that the full 34735 ought to have nearly the same ratio. So we might compare 14500/34735 to 7797/24686. The former is 41.7% and the latter is 31.6%.

This isn't half (50%), but more like 76%.

It is difficult to say why the numbers are different without examining the specific estimate reports and the context found in the reports. I'd assume that in the first instance, the estimates came from a source that used population demographic estimates in combination of a reported 90% random civilian casualty count to get numbers. While the second report had better information involving specific identifications and so quickly tried to revise numbers.

Looking here we can begin to understand what has happened:

GazaDeaths.PNG

The destruction of morgues, and hospital infrastructure, and displacing people around in different ways has led to early precise identifications and following that increasing counts but with unidentified persons.

So initially a group may have used population estimates with typical civilian vs Hamas death proportions, while later a revised number included percents of identified and unidentified persons.

And yes, the proportions are different because those assumptions seem to have been wrong, but they are not as wrong as reported.
 
Note again that "children" here means everybody under 18, not just actual children.
Everybody under 18 IS AN ACTUAL CHILD.

Have you had a recent blow to the head? Your English language skills used to be pretty good.
Your semantic quibble looks like quote mining
Note again that "children" here means everybody under 18, not just actual children. And Hamas et al like to recruit younger teenagers, so many of these "children" are really combatants.

Technically, a 16y/o with 2 kills under his belt is a child. Which would make the actual war crime his recruitment.
Tom
Kyle Rittenhouse was a 17 year old with 2 kills under his belt when Derec was challenging 'libs' to say whether Rittenhouse was still a child. Of course they said he was, an answer which appeared to satisfy Derec since he did not attempt to argue the point.

Teenagers can commit horrific crimes. If you read about the terror attack that killed the toddler whose picture was repeatedly stabbed by Ben-Gvir and his friends at their little get-together, you will know that one of the terrorists was not yet 18 and that he was not prosecuted as an adult. His case was handled by Israel's juvenile justice system. Do you think that was inappropriate?

Also, what do you think of Ben-Gvir?
 
Kyle Rittenhouse was a 17 year old with 2 kills under his belt
Why this obsession with Ritt? He was attacked by three people, including two convicted felons, and defended himself. End of story.
when Derec was challenging 'libs' to say whether Rittenhouse was still a child.
That's because you guys think 17 year old murderers (as in premeditated murder by a 17 year old gang enforcer) are children who should face no more than a few years in juvi no matter what they did. I just wanted to see how consistent y'all were. Mind you, Ritt was tried as an adult. He was rightly acquitted though, and he should not have been prosecuted whether he was 17 or 18.
Teenagers can commit horrific crimes. If you read about the terror attack that killed the toddler whose picture was repeatedly stabbed by Ben-Gvir and his friends at their little get-together, you will know that one of the terrorists was not yet 18 and that he was not prosecuted as an adult. His case was handled by Israel's juvenile justice system. Do you think that was inappropriate?
What case are you talking about specifically? And what about 17 year old Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists? Why is it always Israelis you find objectionable, never Palestinians?
Also, what do you think of Ben-Gvir?
Not much. Why?
 
Kyle Rittenhouse was a 17 year old with 2 kills under his belt when Derec was challenging 'libs' to say whether Rittenhouse was still a child. Of course they said he was, an answer which appeared to satisfy Derec since he did not attempt to argue the point.

Teenagers can commit horrific crimes. If you read about the terror attack that killed the toddler whose picture was repeatedly stabbed by Ben Gvir and his friends at their little get-together, you will know that one of the terrorists was not yet 18. He was not prosecuted as an adult. His case was handled by Israel's juvenile justice system. Do you think that was inappropriate?
That's a lot of words to say, "I agree with bilby so I will ignore his quote mining and insult."

Tom
 
So let me state some of the true parts: Hamas is evil. Hamas might have minors in their membership. And some PORTION of the numbers might be Hamas minors. It is very likely and we could try to do some back of napkin estimates for this. And also it is true that the percents are different.
There is no "might" about it. They most certainly recruit minors.

And yes, the proportions are different because those assumptions seem to have been wrong, but they are not as wrong as reported
In any case, the Hamas Health Ministry is not a reliable source of any information. And again, the age breakdown of the minors killed would be very telling. If it does not follow the population distribution, but spikes for 15-17 year old teenagers, that would show that theses excess dead were most likely combatants.
 
Everybody under 18 IS AN ACTUAL CHILD.
Semantics. I see no reason to conflate a 6 year old or even an 11 year old with a 16 year old. Teenagers or "yutes" is a better description of older minors than "children".
mangia-two-yutes.gif

Harping about "children getting killed" is a blatant attempt at emotional manipulation since most people do not imagine this when they hear "children":
al-ghoul-040723.png

Have you had a recent blow to the head? Your English language skills used to be pretty good.
No need for cheap insults. The meaning of the word "child" in the English language is multifaceted and equivocal. I was going by definition 1a, not 1b. I think it fits better, as "minor" already unequivocally describes 1b.

By the way, using 1c or 2a could encompass many, or all, 30 year olds, respectively.

Meriam Webster said:
1
a
: a young person especially between infancy and puberty
a play for both children and adults
b
: a person not yet of the age of majority (see MAJORITY sense 2a)
Under the law she is still a child.
c
: a childlike or childish person
He is a child in most business matters.
2
a
: a son or daughter of human parents
Do you have any children?
b
: DESCENDANT
the children of Israel
3
a
: an unborn or recently born person
… Meghan Markle, married Prince Harry, now pregnant with child.
—Laura Simonetti
b
dialect : a female infant
4
: one strongly influenced by another or by a place or state of affairs
a child of the streets
a child of nature
America has been called "the first child of the Enlightenment"
5
: PRODUCT, RESULT
barbed wire … is truly a child of the plains
—W. P. Webb
6
usually childe
ˈchī(-ə)ld
archaic : a youth of noble birth
 
Everybody under 18 IS AN ACTUAL CHILD.
Semantics. I see no reason to conflate a 6 year old or even an 11 year old with a 16 year old. Teenagers or "yutes" is a better description than "children".

Harping about "children getting killed" is a blatant attempt at emotional manipulation since most people do not imagine this when they hear "children"
And you know this because …?
 
Everybody under 18 IS AN ACTUAL CHILD.
Semantics. I see no reason to conflate a 6 year old or even an 11 year old with a 16 year old. Teenagers or "yutes" is a better description than "children".

Harping about "children getting killed" is a blatant attempt at emotional manipulation since most people do not imagine this when they hear "children"
And you know this because …?
Because it happens a lot.
It's happening here.
You know, like when bilby clutched his pearls and said, " Everyone under 18 is an actual child."
Tom
 
Everybody under 18 IS AN ACTUAL CHILD.
Semantics. I see no reason to conflate a 6 year old or even an 11 year old with a 16 year old. Teenagers or "yutes" is a better description than "children".

Harping about "children getting killed" is a blatant attempt at emotional manipulation since most people do not imagine this when they hear "children"
And you know this because …?
Because it happens a lot.
It's happening here.
You know, like when bilby clutched his pearls and said, " Everyone under 18 is an actual child."
Tom
Derec’s claim is that most people DO NOT think of teenagers when they hear “children”. Your example contradicts what Derec wrote because bilby clearly does include teenagers as children.
 
Derec’s claim is that most people DO NOT think of teenagers when they hear “children”.
That's not Derecs claim.
There's a bunch of accepted uses for the word other than legally of age for certain decisions in my society.
Your example contradicts what Derec wrote because bilby clearly does include teenagers as children.
It doesn't contradict what Derec wrote at all. Bilby was attempting to use one emotionally charged meaning, and dodging what Derec clearly did write. Being technically a child doesn't mean you aren't a violent murderous terrorist.
Tom
 
Being technically a child doesn't mean you aren't a violent murderous terrorist.

Yes that has been accepted already, but the problem with that is the number of adult women are expected to be significantly less than minors. Minors are about 45% of population. Adult women are about 27.5% of population.

When we look at the identified about 8% are elderly and 20% women as a separate category (non-elderly women). If half or a third of elderly are women, then we are up to 23%-24% of identified were adult women. So we expect minors to have the same ratio to women as per the population which is going to be 45% x 23%/27.5% ~= 37.5%-ish.

So based on randomness of hitting adult female targets, we expect about 37.5% of the identified to be minors.

What we observe, though, is 7797 / 24686 ~= 31.6%.

So children appear to be under-represented as compared to women.

If there were a significant number of children joining Hamas and this Hamas proposition was a significant reason for Israel killing them, we'd expect their representation to be way ABOVE their proportion as compared to women.

We do not observe this.
 

Jeezy Creeezy, how many times do we have to repeat the same damn thing before any of it sinks in?

No one here supports Hamas or wants them to remain in power. We know Hamas has to be defeated for there to be any chance at peace.
If you could please point out the post where you stated what could be done to defeat Hamas that would certainly help me follow this thread.
 

Israel's response to the terror attack in October looks grossly disproportionate.
How many can be killed to pass that very vague 'grossly disproportionate' figure?
Wow. To satisfy you, no more than 8,946. 00 ( pay attention to the significant digits, they are important) adults and no one under the age of 8 years.
 
Note again that "children" here means everybody under 18, not just actual children. And Hamas et al like to recruit younger teenagers, so many of these "children" are really combatants.
Recruit or enslave?
 

Israel's response to the terror attack in October looks grossly disproportionate.
How many can be killed to pass that very vague 'grossly disproportionate' figure?
The number killed isn't the only measure of proportionality, but 25:1 is pretty significant, especially when you consider that the side doing the most killing has the ability to do precise targeting of individual persons. If the report that the IDF allows the killing of 20 civilians in order to kill one suspected low level operative is accurate, then those numbers make sense. It means the IDF is murdering families, neighbors, and random Gazans as a matter of course.

There is also the destruction of housing and infrastructure, the percent of the population made refugees, the refusal to allow people to surrender or to honor a promise that they would be safe if they evacuate to certain areas, the interference with shipments of food and water, the imprisonment of persons in conditions so brutal most people around here wouldn't accept it being done to a dog, and the overall ruthlessness and brutality displayed by the forces carrying out the operations to consider when one is talking about a disproportionate response.
 

Jeezy Creeezy, how many times do we have to repeat the same damn thing before any of it sinks in?

No one here supports Hamas or wants them to remain in power. We know Hamas has to be defeated for there to be any chance at peace.
If you could please point out the post where you stated what could be done to defeat Hamas that would certainly help me follow this thread.
I have my doubts, but okay.

Let's go over my basic position on the conflict and the path to peace.

Then we can talk about how England and France learned to get along, how the English and the Irish worked out a negotiated deal to disengage, how Japan and the United States got to be on friendly terms instead of being driven by racism and revenge, and any other models of conflict resolution that you think are pertinent. We can also revisit our discussion of the end of WWII and the negotiated surrender of the Nazis.
 
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Israel's response to the terror attack in October looks grossly disproportionate.
How many can be killed to pass that very vague 'grossly disproportionate' figure?
Wow. To satisfy you, no more than 8,946. 00 ( pay attention to the significant digits, they are important) adults and no one under the age of 8 years.
You are the one who claims grossly disproportionate not I.

Let's try again.
You can say that Israel is allowed to defend itself against . What can they do against Hamas that would not cause you to claim grossly disproportionate or genocide or war crimes*

*You may not have used the term genocide but the list who have is long
 
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