Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

One difference is that Gazans are being DELIBERATELY starved. Do you support that Netanyahu policy?

Bullshit. Stop spreading conspiracy theory nonsense.

Human Rights Watch regards the starvation as deliberate:

Children in Gaza have been dying from starvation-related complications since the Israeli government began using starvation as a weapon of war, a war crime, Human Rights Watch said today. Doctors and families in Gaza described children, as well as pregnant and breastfeeding mothers, suffering from severe malnutrition and dehydration, and hospitals ill-equipped to treat them.
. . .
“The Israeli government’s use of starvation as a weapon of war has proven deadly for children in Gaza,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. “Israel needs to end this war crime, stop this suffering, and allow humanitarian aid to reach all of Gaza unhindered.”
. . .
International humanitarian law prohibits the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court provides that intentionally starving civilians by “depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including willfully impeding relief supplies,” is a war crime.

Since the Hamas-led October 7, 2023, attacks in Israel, the Israeli government has deliberately blocked the delivery of aid, food, and fuel into Gaza, while impeding humanitarian assistance and depriving civilians of the means to survive. Israeli officials ordering or carrying out these actions are committing collective punishment against the civilian population and the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, both of which are war crimes.

A United Nations reporter regards the starvation as deliberate:

Well, Hamas has done their darndest to make Palestinian civilian targets. It's their strategy in order to manipulate world opinion. Stop playing into their disgusting strategy.

The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food Michael Fakhri has said that the spread of disease and Israel’s “starvation campaign” in Gaza is “killing more people than bombs and bullets”.
. . .
His comments follow his new report to the UN General Assembly last week, in which he detailed how Israel has used starvation in Gaza “with the intent to destroy in whole or in part the Palestinian people”.

“Never in post-war history had a population been made to go hungry so quickly and so completely as was the case for the 2.3 million Palestinians living in Gaza,” Fakhri said.
. . .
It explained that Israel’s destruction of Gaza’s food system, including the poisoning and destruction of agricultural land, and the destruction of ports and fishing vessels served to make the entire population dependent on humanitarian aid.

“In turn, Israel then used humanitarian aid as a political and military weapon to harm and kill the Palestinian people in Gaza,” the report read, referring to the severe restrictions Israel has imposed on humanitarian aid flows to the besieged enclave.

Et cetera.

Hamas could end this at any time by cooperating with Israel. Hamas is making it as hard as possible for Israel to help the Palestinian people.

Letting Hamas stay in power in Gaza is not an option.

Bullshit. Stop spreading conspiracy theory nonsense.

Stop denying the war crimes.

Hamas is the only side here who has comitted war crimes. Israel has all the time done their best to avoid civilian casualities. One example of Hamas' tacticts. Hamas has been firing rockets from refugee camps into Israel, counting on that Israel won't return fire. To their credit Israel refuses to be manipulated by these tactics and fire back. Those civilian casualites are the result of Hamas atrocities. Not Israeli.

Don't let Hamas get away with this behaviour.

Everyone benefits from Hamas being destroyed. Even the Palestinians. Fun fact, In the Middle East the country where muslims are the most free to worship as they please is in Israel. Everywhere else in the Middle-East they are less free.

 

[Arctish]

And no one here has denied the IDF and the government of Israel should, and indeed must, defend Israel, including waging war against organizations like Hamas that attack its citizens.

I am glad you have said that.

I have said it repeatedly in this thread and others for over 20 years.

Did you just now notice?

More importantly, will you remember that I said it so I don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over again?

You pretend you accept Israel defending themselves but you demand they follow impossible standards in doing so.

Arctish et. al would make a good pairing with the Hon. Penny Wong, Foreign Minister of Australia. She too constantly repeats the refrain that Israel is allowed too, and must defend its citizens. Yet as soon as Israel does anything to defend itself there is the blather about possible war crimes, disproportionate response etc., etc..

Governments exist to facilitate cooperation between individuals so that multiple individuals can benefit through joint efforts and pooled resources, to acquire and defend access to resources, and to protect the individuals who are full members of that society. The characteristics of each government can vary greatly, but the purpose is pretty much the same everywhere. So while a government can be democratic, theocratic, autocratic, aristocratic, etc., the most important functions of every government is to defend territory and protect the favored populace.

That does not mean that every government is equally good, equally bad, or equally functional. It does not mean that every policy one promotes or action one takes is equally good, bad, or inconsequential in their effects on their own people and others. It does not mean that specific actions of a specific government or specific leader can't be criticized. They can, and indeed, they should.

What Israel does, what Netanyahu and his allies say, and what policies they promote, are as subject to scrutiny and criticism as the policies of every government in the world and the musings of every world leader or Cabinet member. To attempt to carve out exceptions for Israel is special pleading, and it's a fallacy.

It seems absurd that those basic points need to be expressed every few months but apparently it's necessary because some folks around here absolutely insist on employing double standards.

The double standard seems to be that Israel can do nothing to defend its self without being accused of war crimes, disproportionate response etc. Constantly Israel is told not to escalate, defend or retaliate. That will not get the hostages back nor bring peace to the region.

Can you provide examples of this? Who has been telling Israel not to defend itself?

Also, what specific accusations of war crimes are we talking about? Do the people making those accusations cite evidence of war crimes, or are they making baseless assertions?

I must acknowledge the fastidious care that such people take to ensure that there is no possibility of determining what actions, if any, Israel could do that they would find acceptable.

I must acknowledge your apparent unwillingness to engage in a discussion of that very thing. Let me know if you decide to read any of the articles I linked or the book I suggested, or if you have any material you'd like to offer instead.

So you still can/will not tell us what acceptable actions to you Israel can do? Referring to rules of engagement does not tell me what you consider acceptable. A good fig leaf to hide behind though.

FFS, I'm trying to have a conversation with you about it and all you're doing is complaining that I haven't force fed you a textbook. Did you read the Law of War/ Introduction to Rules of Engagement pdf from the US Marine Corps I linked to? Did you take even a cursory glance at the article I linked regarding the Battle of Mogadishu?

At no time did the US forces in Somalia murder prisoners, some with their hands still tied, and dump their bodies in a mass grave, but it appears some soldiers in the IDF did. No grandmothers holding the hands of children waving white flags were shot by US forces in Mogadishu but there is solid evidence an IDF sniper shot one in Gaza. When militants and suspected militants in Mogadishu were identified, the US did not wait until they arrived home and then blow up the buildings they were in so that their families would die, too, but earlier in this thread we saw a report that the IDF is following that policy.

Can you guess the reason for the difference? It's because the Rules of Engagement under which US forces operated in Somalia did not allow those war crimes to be committed, but apparently the ROE for the IDF in Gaza does.

Do you, or do you not, agree that the ROE under which the IDF operates in Gaza should PROHIBIT war crimes rather than permit them? If not, why not?

And again, I will repeat: governments exist for the benefit of their citizens, at least the favored ones. They defend territory and access to resources, and protect their citizens. That does not mean that everything a government does for the good of its preferred persons is moral or justified or acceptable according to modern notions of human rights and good governance, even if the people who benefit from it really, really like it when their government kicks the shit out of the non-favored people.

 

[Henry-Finland]

I think this video is quite balanced. It does not tell so much about the sufferings but is more like a military description.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think this video is quite balanced. It does not tell so much about the sufferings but is more like a military description.



View attachment 48204

I think this video is quite balanced. It does not tell so much about the sufferings but is more like a military description.



View attachment 48204

Kings and Generals is great. But I don't understand why they have an issue with a continued occupation of Gaza by Israel. I personally can't see any possibility for peace as long as the Palestinians have self rule. Ever since Israel was founded Palestinians have been hell bent on destroying Israel and killing all Jews. While there, no doubt, exists Palestinians who want to live in peace with Jews... it doesn't seem to be any popular movement.

I know some Palestinians personally. They all have a very black and white view of Israel, namely that it should be destroyed. These are people who grew up in the west. The culture of Palestinians just doesn't seem to be conducive to peace.

If Israel gives power back to the Palestinians it seems like history is guaranteed to repeat itself. If I was in Netanyahus position, I'd never even open for that possibility.

While Israel has an excellent track record of protecting Muslim rights within Israel.

To me it's a no-brainer. How many second chances should the Palestinians be given? At this point I think they've spent all their goodwill. Time to let Israel be in charge. It's also the most well run country in the Middle-East. And a stable and healthy democracy. I can't see any downsides for the Palestinians.

While Hezbolah and Hamas are different organisations. They're both funded by Iran, and are basically Iranian. They should be seen as the same organisation IMHO. They should be seen as Iran.

It also needs to be acknowledge how absurd it is that Hezbolah and Hamas regularly shoot rockets into Israel and Israel is just supposed to just take it. No sovereign country should

 

[laughing dog]

IMO, a game changing offer to leave the West Bank in exchange for live hostages. As a show of good intentions, stop any building and atrest any settlers implicated in violence. In return, get one live hostage as a show of Hamas’s good faith.

One live hostage? Very generous of you. That's not a show of good faith. That is spitting in the faces of the other hostages and their families.

Perhaps the issue with your hasty ill-considered response is that a show of good faith is necessary to build trust to proceed to more extensive exchange or do you think parties that have a long history of mistrust will instantaneously start hugging and trusting each other?

What will happen to the rest of the hostages?
Israel has evacuated the west bank, arrested some settlers, presumably stopped bombing in Gaza for one hostage. Hamas will not need to do anything else. And still have the rest of the hostages. Good deal for them.

That would be a great deal for Hamas but that’s not what I proposed. As a first step, I proposed stop building and arresting some settlers implicated in violence in exchange fir a live hostage. That was it. Israel’s steps are reversible if they don’t work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This notion that “people” don’t care if children are starving unless they are Gazan is malarky. There are dozens of NGOs dedicated to just that, including one called Feed the Children.

The point is it's not news.

If "it" (whatever "it" is) is not news, why are you bringing it up?

We are pointing out that it's very selective prosecution. It's the cop stepping over the dead body to arrest a litterer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yet somehow it's Israel's fault what's happening even though you admit Israel isn't in a position to make peace.

Is everything black and white? Must there be exactly one side that is right and one side that is wrong?

The situation is not black and white. But who is driving the violence is black and white.

You write as though everything was happy and peaceful before 7 October 2023. Really? Did the conflict have no prior history?

There's a long history of Hamas attacks sometimes followed by Israeli responses.

Palestinians are resentful of the approx. One Million Israelis who have confiscated Palestinian houses and territory in the West Bank for their own dwellings. Can you understand that? Those settlements are in violation of international law. Last time you were asked about this matter, your reply amounted to "Might makes right. Ha ha ha!" Is that still your position?

1) The war is with Gaza. There are no settlers in Gaza.

2) What's the documentation of that one million figure, because it doesn't seem remotely reasonable--does the average settler occupy two houses over and above anything they built?? And we have things like supposed confiscation in Jerusalem where Jews reclaimed property that the Arabs had confiscated in 1948.

3) I don't like the settlers. But I recognize that they are a distraction, not a reason. Removing every settler would only aggravate the underlying conflict, same as happened in Gaza.

Long before Hamas attacked a year ago, the conditions imposed by Israel on the Palestinians had similarities to the Warsaw Ghetto under Hitler.

Of course they are suffering--that's how Hamas is able to recruit them as cannon fodder. Hamas does not want them to have any source of revenue other than Hamas. It's not Israel causing the suffering.

Do you have any hope for the Palestinians' future? Are Netanyahu's actions the way to build trust and friendship?

I have no hope for the Palestinian future because I know they are powerless to resist the corruption of Iran. And now that Russia has gotten into the game there's simply no path to resolve this other than hope that Iran falls apart.

And I see Netanyahu's actions as irrelevant to that. The war predates him, the war will still be there when he's gone.

The arguments about Israeli's fault almost all lie in events that came later. Do the Palestinians have time travel? If not, nothing Israel did other than existing can be the cause. Anything later is a convenient excuse to justify blaming Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You write as though everything was happy and peaceful before 7 October 2023. Really? Did the conflict have no prior history?

Look at the thread title. "Unprovoked" is right there.

I objected strenuously to this, some 5,300 posts ago, and was soundly ignored.

Apoarently it's the official position of this board that 7 October 2023 was the very first time anyone did anything mean, cruel, or wrong, to anyone else, anywhere in the Middle East.

You weren't ignored, you were simply wrong.

Nothing justifies the 10/7 massacre. Thus it can not be a proper response to anything Israel did.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You write as though everything was happy and peaceful before 7 October 2023. Really? Did the conflict have no prior history?

Look at the thread title. "Unprovoked" is right there.

I objected strenuously to this, some 5,300 posts ago, and was soundly ignored.

Apoarently it's the official position of this board that 7 October 2023 was the very first time anyone did anything mean, cruel, or wrong, to anyone else, anywhere in the Middle East.

You weren't ignored, you were simply wrong.

Nothing justifies the 10/7 massacre. Thus it can not be a proper response to anything Israel did.

That word was "unprovoked" not "unjustified". Bilby is our lead pedant and he'll call you on that switch of words. Even I caught on to it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IDF destroys an entire village in Lebanon.

Very interesting explosion pattern. Looks almost like a fuse leading up to the big boom. What weapon looks like that? Certainly nothing I'm aware of--a bomb starts with the biggest boom. But it's perfectly reasonable for secondaries. There are some "villages" in Lebanon that are basically nothing but Hezbollah rocket storage--I've never paid attention to names but this certainly seems like it might be an example of such.

Cluster munition.

Can hit an area, won't make that big boom at the end. That was something they hit, not something they dropped.

It has been suggested that the area was prewired with explosives to destroy the tunnel network underneath.

I could certainly see Israel blowing tunnels they had seized but that wouldn't explain the big boom at the end. And it would be a valid military target anyway.

We don't know how many tunnels are in the area but there is no question that Hezbollah has been using tunnels also, including some going into Israel. Expect to see Israel destroying tunnels and if you don't like villages going up the process blame the side that put the tunnels under them.

 

[laughing dog]

This notion that “people” don’t care if children are starving unless they are Gazan is malarky. There are dozens of NGOs dedicated to just that, including one called Feed the Children.

The point is it's not news.

If "it" (whatever "it" is) is not news, why are you bringing it up?

We are pointing out that it's very selective prosecution. It's the cop stepping over the dead body to arrest a litterer.

What on earth is that about? No one is prosecuting anything.

No one is required to meet your or anyone else's standards of acceptable levels of protest. Implying that it can only be anti-semitism that explains the visible recent concern over starvation and malnutrition in Gaza is sloppy thinking at best.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This notion that “people” don’t care if children are starving unless they are Gazan is malarky. There are dozens of NGOs dedicated to just that, including one called Feed the Children.

The point is it's not news.

If "it" (whatever "it" is) is not news, why are you bringing it up?

We are pointing out that it's very selective prosecution. It's the cop stepping over the dead body to arrest a litterer.

I fucking hate analogies and hypotheticals in discussions about actual suffering.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IMO, a game changing offer to leave the West Bank in exchange for live hostages. As a show of good intentions, stop any building and atrest any settlers implicated in violence. In return, get one live hostage as a show of Hamas’s good faith.

For Israel to give any concessions beyond peace for the hostages would be to strongly encourage another 10/7.
The world keeps demanding that Israel engage in appeasement. That brought about 10/7 and now they're saying no to the demands for appeasement. You're assuming peace can be reached despite the fact that in an earlier post you admitted it's effectively impossible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IMO, a game changing offer to leave the West Bank in exchange for live hostages. As a show of good intentions, stop any building and atrest any settlers implicated in violence. In return, get one live hostage as a show of Hamas’s good faith.

Then the Palestinians will kidnap a bunch more Israelis.
Again.
Because kidnapping gets them what they want. And nobody from the UN to American university students will do anything but tell Israelis how evil and genocidal they are.

Fuck that noise.
Tom

“the Palestinians”? Fuck THAT noise.

Someone(s) is always tries to disrupt the path to peace.

I was asked a wuestion, and I answered the question as asked. Do I think anyone in that region who really wants peace and is in a position to act will do anything at this time? No.

Yet you seem to think Israel should engage in appeasement. It never works, yet you keep demanding it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

10 terrorists are coming to kill your baby. Do you throw the grenade, killing the 10 terrorists, or do you let them kill your baby because one death is better than ten deaths?

I leave with my baby. If I must, I kill the terrorists but not the 40 innocent bystanders.

There's no place to run, leaving with your baby isn't an option.

So you choose to die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, I don't support Netanyahu. I don't think that it's possible to completely wipe out Hamas. However, this is hamas's doing. They are too blame. But people don't care about children starving unless they are gazians. 10,000 starve every day. Where are the posts regarding this?

And why did nobody care when I posted about what's happening in Sudan?

I have asked that question twice earlier and heard nothing.

Muslims fighting Muslims - the west does not care (see Syria, Afghanistan etc.)
Muslims/Jews fighting - suddenly the rest of the world cares.
Somehow get a western country to blame - suddenly the rest of the world cares.

To answer your question adequately would expose their antisemitism. Thus you will not get an answer from them.

 

[pood]

IMO, a game changing offer to leave the West Bank in exchange for live hostages. As a show of good intentions, stop any building and atrest any settlers implicated in violence. In return, get one live hostage as a show of Hamas’s good faith.

[Mod Edit]

You sure must like using vicious slurs and ad hom.

For Israel to give any concessions beyond peace for the hostages would be to strongly encourage another 10/7.

Did it ever occur to you that what Israel is doing NOW is encouraging another 10/7 — tons of them, as a matter of fact?

The world keeps demanding that Israel engage in appeasement.

No, it doesn’t. It keeps demanding that they stop starving and slaughtering innocent men, women, and children.

That brought about 10/7 and now they're saying fuck you to the demands for appeasement.

Did it ever occur to you that what Israel is doing NOW is encouraging another 10/7 — tons of them, as a matter of fact?

[Mod Edit] You're assuming peace can be reached despite the fact that in an earlier post you admitted it's effectively impossible.

Is your advice to domestic violence victims to just let him rape you so there isn't a problem?

Innocent men, women and children did not “rape” Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IMO, a game changing offer to leave the West Bank in exchange for live hostages. As a show of good intentions, stop any building and atrest any settlers implicated in violence. In return, get one live hostage as a show of Hamas’s good faith.

One live hostage? Very generous of you. That's not a show of good faith. That is spitting in the faces of the other hostages and their families.

Perhaps the issue with your hasty ill-considered response is that a show of good faith is necessary to build trust to proceed to more extensive exchange or do you think parties that have a long history of mistrust will instantaneously start hugging and trusting each other?

What about your ill-considered idea of trust and good faith?? Besides, past behavior shows that Israel honors deals. Hamas has no reason to not trust them.

10 terrorists are coming to kill your baby. Do you throw the grenade, killing the 10 terrorists, or do you let them kill your baby because one death is better than ten deaths?

I leave with my baby. If I must, I kill the terrorists but not the 40 innocent bystanders.

Who are the 40 innocent bystanders?

40 innocent bystanders. How come you are not asking who are the terrorists.

The data is pretty clear that there are no more than 14 "innocent bystanders"--who clearly are not bystanders, but captives of the terrorists. More likely there are something like 5. What if the terrorists have you surrounded and you can not leave with your baby?

Then you are changing the scenario because they are not coming to kill me.

So it's just you that matters, your baby does not??

To answer your question - it wouldn't happen because of my early warning system.

Your early warning system isn't infallible and at most tells you they are coming, it doesn't block them.

Since you are trying to disrupt the question let's reframe it:

10 terrorists are coming to kill your baby. They have 14 captives they are using as human shields. Do you throw the grenade or not? Do not keep trying to wiggle, this is only a comparison and thus by definition is imperfect. It is simply a problem with only horrible answers. There's no sky daddy that will give you and out if you're just good enough.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I must acknowledge your apparent unwillingness to engage in a discussion of that very thing. Let me know if you decide to read any of the articles I linked or the book I suggested, or if you have any material you'd like to offer instead.

So you still can/will not tell us what acceptable actions to you Israel can do? Referring to rules of engagement does not tell me what you consider acceptable. A good fig leaf to hide behind though.

There is an answer if you'll just look hard enough. If you can't find the answer you haven't looked hard enough. The fault always lies with the side with the obvious power. Why are you trying to use reason to rebut faith?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The double standard seems to be that Israel can do nothing to defend its self without being accused of war crimes, disproportionate response etc. Constantly Israel is told not to escalate, defend or retaliate. That will not get the hostages back nor bring peace to the region.

Can you provide examples of this? Who has been telling Israel not to defend itself?

Also, what specific accusations of war crimes are we talking about? Do the people making those accusations cite evidence of war crimes, or are they making baseless assertions?

Look in the mirror. You've been one of the ones chanting war crimes.

FFS, I'm trying to have a conversation with you about it and all you're doing is complaining that I haven't force fed you a textbook. Did you read the Law of War/ Introduction to Rules of Engagement pdf from the US Marine Corps I linked to? Did you take even a cursory glance at the article I linked regarding the Battle of Mogadishu?

At no time did the US forces in Somalia murder prisoners, some with their hands still tied, and dump their bodies in a mass grave, but it appears some soldiers in the IDF did. No grandmothers holding the hands of children waving white flags were shot by US forces in Mogadishu but there is solid evidence an IDF sniper shot one in Gaza. When militants and suspected militants in Mogadishu were identified, the US did not wait until they arrived home and then blow up the buildings they were in so that their families would die, too, but earlier in this thread we saw a report that the IDF is following that policy.

When you accept Hamas propaganda as fact of course you come up with wrong answers.

IDF dump prisoners with their hands tied in a mass grave? Mass grave: definitely true. Hands tied: we have no evidence. Prisoners: we have no evidence. IDF: clearly not--the Palestinians dug that grave and buried the bodies (pictures have been found on the web showing it well before Israel occupied the area.) The grave predates Israel's control of the area. Israel dug up the grave to see if any of the hostages were there, then put things back as they were.

Grandmother shot? Definitely. Conveniently on camera--why? And where's the evidence the IDF was the shooter?? And why would they do that? Israel gains nothing but suffers bad PR. Thus who is the most likely shooter? Hamas! They have knowingly sacrificed civilians before, this would not be something unusual.

Wait for them to arrive home? Where are there going to be fewer civilians about--where they're spotted on the street, or at their home?

Can you guess the reason for the difference? It's because the Rules of Engagement under which US forces operated in Somalia did not allow those war crimes to be committed, but apparently the ROE for the IDF in Gaza does.

Do you, or do you not, agree that the ROE under which the IDF operates in Gaza should PROHIBIT war crimes rather than permit them? If not, why not?

You have shown one thing known to be false, one thing that is probably false and one that isn't a war crime.

And again, I will repeat: governments exist for the benefit of their citizens, at least the favored ones. They defend territory and access to resources, and protect their citizens. That does not mean that everything a government does for the good of its preferred persons is moral or justified or acceptable according to modern notions of human rights and good governance, even if the people who benefit from it really, really like it when their government kicks the shit out of the non-favored people.

And you can't understand that applies to Hamas?