Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

Holding hostages isn't a "daily attack".

Y'all can do whatever semantic dance you want.
But the continued holding of kidnap victims is solid proof that the Gazans who matter aren't interested in ending the conflict. They don't want peace and prosperity for Gazans as a whole. They want the violence to continue.

I'm convinced that the reason for that is that the Gazans who matter are riding a gravy train of wealth and power. That's largely fueled by petrodollars from places like Iran.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

The Gazans who matter. That needs to be on a T-shirt. Yes, Iran is a significant part of the problem, and the fact that Hamas leadership operates outside of Gaza is another challenge—one that Israel seems to be addressing effectively.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is absolutely zero political movement in Palestine to live in peace with Jews.

Absolute statements are never true.

Except that Hamas kills anyone who they think might talk peace.

 

[bilby]

the continued holding of kidnap victims is solid proof that the Gazans who matter aren't interested in ending the conflict.

Nobody's continuing to hold any hostages. They have been dead for months. The IDF have been bombing the tunnels Hamas operates from; Where do you think the hostages were being kept?

Their bodies are likely unrecoverable, and/or unidentifiable.

If the war is going to continue until all of the hostages are returned to their families, then the war will never end.

 

[Gospel]

Sadly, it's a possibility that the hostages may no longer be alive.

 

[TomC]

There is absolutely zero political movement in Palestine to live in peace with Jews.

Absolute statements are never true.

Except that Hamas kills anyone who they think might talk peace.

The Gazans That Matter don't necessarily have to kill.
If Ali Gaza kisses Hamas ass better than Yusef Gaza, who's family is going to get better access to food and medical care and security? It doesn't matter what Ali Gaza really thinks, he's got a family to provide for.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You've essentially repeated my argument but reframed it as though I said the opposite. You seem to agree that extremists must be addressed while simultaneously supporting efforts to 'liberalize Islam'. It's counterproductive to focus exclusively on extremist Islam, as it undermines and complicates the efforts of those working toward positive change. That's the core of my argument. You consistently imply that I fail to grasp the extremity of groups like Hamas, which is an unfounded assumption. Although it's an improvement, this is the first time you've said anything that genuinely acknowledges the humanity of people of the Muslim faith (again I'm not talking about Hamas here).

BTW, yes, yes, yes, I’ve said it countless times already: Hamas and extremism absolutely need to be addressed. I’m at my wits’ end with how deaf some of you seem to be on this.

The problem with working for positive change is that you're looking for your keys under the streetlight. Iran isn't interested in positive change. And they have enough power to ensure there will be no positive change in places like Gaza. You're looking to do something even though it's not going to accomplish anything.

 

[TomC]

If the war is going to continue until all of the hostages are returned to their families, then the war will never end.

How unfortunate for everyone that the Gazans Who Matter chose this.

Well, except for the GWM and their owners. Ya know, the terrorist Muslim authoritarians.
Tom
ETA ~Its great for the GWM~

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Italy admits rockets that hit UN forces were from Hezbollah, not Israel

Last week Italy had said an unexploded artillery shell hit the base of UNIFIL base, putting the blame on the IDF.

www.jpost.com

I have repeatedly suggested that certain events in Gaza were false flag operations by Hamas and most of you seem to consider that unreasonable. Well, now we have a clearly identified false flag out of Lebanon. Italy has admitted that Hezbollah staged an "Israeli" attack on a UN base.

Do you still find the notion of a false flag Hamas operation preposterous?

 

[blastula]

We got him now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/icc-issues-arrest-warrants-israels-netanyahu-gallant-hamas-leader-2024-11-21/

 

[laughing dog]

the continued holding of kidnap victims is solid proof that the Gazans who matter aren't interested in ending the conflict.

Nobody's continuing to hold any hostages. They have been dead for months. The IDF have been bombing the tunnels Hamas operates from; Where do you think the hostages were being kept?

Their bodies are likely unrecoverable, and/or unidentifiable.

If the war is going to continue until all of the hostages are returned to their families, then the war will never end.

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

 

[Gospel]

Family welfare can force individuals to prioritize survival over personal beliefs or resistance. If Hamas seizes supplies and uses them as leverage against Gazans, it compels some to become Hamas combatants. Then whether they are willing participants or not, the IDF still has to act and neutralize them as part of heir operations.

That's why I argue that controlling supplies, identifying non-combatants, and ensuring their safety are critical for Israel's security. I'm confident this is being taken into account, and there's substantial evidence to suggest it's happening—for instance, large areas of Gaza near the occupied zones being converted into shelters, such as al-Mawasi and UNRWA locations.

Italy admits rockets that hit UN forces were from Hezbollah, not Israel

Last week Italy had said an unexploded artillery shell hit the base of UNIFIL base, putting the blame on the IDF.

www.jpost.com

I have repeatedly suggested that certain events in Gaza were false flag operations by Hamas and most of you seem to consider that unreasonable. Well, now we have a clearly identified false flag out of Lebanon. Italy has admitted that Hezbollah staged an "Israeli" attack on a UN base.

Do you still find the notion of a false flag Hamas operation preposterous?

Hamas already has a well-documented history of harming Gazans, making it highly likely they're still harming civilians. Not sure who would need convincing of that at this point. Now If someone claims a specific attack was carried out by Hamas and is asked for proof, the act of making the request for proof isn't a denial of the claim. That's not how things have ever worked on this forum.

 

[TomC]

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

I wouldn't particularly trust any "official pronouncements" coming out of a situation like that.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

I wouldn't particularly trust any "official pronouncements" coming out of a situation like that.
Tom

Then why think the war will end if hostages are returned? And if returning the hostages won't end the conflict, why incentive does Hamas have to return them?

 

[TomC]

Then why think the war will end if hostages are returned?

I never suggested that it would!
I'm pointing out that the war won't end until violent Muslim extremists are gone.

Israel will have to continue fighting the Muslims until Muslims develop an interest in Peace and Prosperity for everyone or Muslims manage to achieve the genocide they've been trying for about 70 years.

Those are the only two feasible choices I see.
The war will not end before one of those things are accomplished.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

You've essentially repeated my argument but reframed it as though I said the opposite. You seem to agree that extremists must be addressed while simultaneously supporting efforts to 'liberalize Islam'. It's counterproductive to focus exclusively on extremist Islam, as it undermines and complicates the efforts of those working toward positive change. That's the core of my argument. You consistently imply that I fail to grasp the extremity of groups like Hamas, which is an unfounded assumption. Although it's an improvement, this is the first time you've said anything that genuinely acknowledges the humanity of people of the Muslim faith (again I'm not talking about Hamas here).

BTW, yes, yes, yes, I’ve said it countless times already: Hamas and extremism absolutely need to be addressed. I’m at my wits’ end with how deaf some of you seem to be on this.

The problem with working for positive change is that you're looking for your keys under the streetlight. Iran isn't interested in positive change. And they have enough power to ensure there will be no positive change in places like Gaza. You're looking to do something even though it's not going to accomplish anything.

You seem to underestimate the determination of the Israeli people. Look at how far they’ve progressed, primarily through defensive measures (aside from the occupied zones). Yet, you question whether their offensive strategies can produce meaningful outcomes. Israel has a well-documented history of launching successful offensives that resulted in significant territorial gains, later relinquished through diplomatic agreements.

They don’t necessarily need to fully withdraw from Gaza if they can win the hearts of its people and adopt a unified strategy to prevent the resurgence of groups like Hamas (which Israel ironically once supported to undermine the PLO, a move that backfired) while keeping Iran out. This could be achieved with support not just from the U.S. but also from other UN members, along with regional players like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

Most criticism focuses on the destruction in Gaza and the civilian death toll—virtually no one, to my knowledge, is defending Hamas. I haven’t seen a single nation that matters (TomC®) stand up and say, 'Hey, leave Hamas alone, they’re our allies.