Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Harry Bosch]

A one-state solution suffers from the issue of protection of Israeli rights (to exist). While it is possible a majority of Gazans, et al are in support of that protection, those people wouldn't be running the Government.

From the outset, the British Empire was fully aware of these issues. Their primary interest was exerting influence over the Middle East, rather than addressing the needs or aspirations of the Jewish people. It'd go as far as to suggest that their modern allies, mainly the USA, is a continuation of this. Jewish people from my view are unfortunately meat shields for geopolitical interest. While I cannot categorically state that the population is entirely composed of unwilling participants, I am inclined to believe that the majority simply desire to avoid bloodshed.

I don't disagree with you amigo. But Americans are the same. In fact, Americans would be far worse IMO. Every time an American is killed by an undocumented person from Mexico: we want blood! We're not a war with Mexico. And the Mexican government has not authorized an attack on a peace concert in the US. But most Americans want the border closed permanently.

 

[Gospel]

But that was then, this is now. The locals won't be in control. Iran doesn't want a two state solution. They don't want a one state solution. They want trouble. And in the end, the majority opinion in Palestine won't matter, because it never has, and almost certainly never will.

I believe Iran's main objectives are to reduce Western influence within the Arab world and increase their own. I'm not at all shocked; in fact, I fully anticipate it, and I'm confident that the USA isn't a surprised Pikachu. The establishment of the state of Israel by the British Empire provided Iran with potent leverage, enabling it to expand its influence across the Arab world. The British, in their handling of Israel, reminds me of Jim Marshall. Much like Marshall the British believed their actions were to their benefit but they really just scored points for the opposing team.

 

[steve_bank]

Biden is ding the usual political two step. Hey come on Netanyahu I as POTUS am very unhappy about 30,000 casualties, but not to worry I'll keep the weapons flowing.

The issue of slavery and Jim Crow still hangs around our necks as a moral failure. The incarceration of and seizure of property of Japanese Americans in WWII. Genocide of Native Americans.

Gaza will go down in history as one of our greatest moral failures. The eradication of a people.

Starve the kids and there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza.

And we wonder why people in the Mid East hate us Americans.

 

[laughing dog]

But that was then, this is now. The locals won't be in control. Iran doesn't want a two state solution. They don't want a one state solution. They want trouble. And in the end, the majority opinion in Palestine won't matter, because it never has, and almost certainly never will.

I believe Iran's main objectives are to reduce Western influence within the Arab world and increase their own. I'm not at all shocked; in fact, I fully anticipate it, and I'm confident that the USA isn't a surprised Pikachu. The establishment of the state of Israel by the British Empire provided Iran with potent leverage, enabling it to expand its influence across the Arab world. The British, in their handling of Israel, reminds me of Jim Marshall. Much like Marshall the British believed their actions were to their benefit but they really just scored points for the opposing team.

Jim Marshall - who holds the NFL record for most consecutive games played (282), in an era where the seasons were 14 games - was an fearsome defensive end. Glad to see he is still remembered.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, overall I view the British as net positive however they have their moments.

 

[Derec]

Biden is ding the usual political two step. Hey come on Netanyahu I as POTUS am very unhappy about 30,000 casualties, but not to worry I'll keep the weapons flowing.

Why is he taking the Hamas figures seriously?
How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers

Hamas must be destroyed, or else they will keep attacking Israel.

The issue of slavery and Jim Crow still hangs around our necks as a moral failure. The incarceration of and seizure of property of Japanese Americans in WWII. Genocide of Native Americans.

What does any of that have to do with Israel defending itself from naked aggression by Gaza?

Gaza will go down in history as one of our greatest moral failures. The eradication of a people.

Eradication of a people? The Gaza, after the war, will be very different than when they started the war on 10/7.
But there is no "eradication of a people". Even using Hamas numbers, 30k is just over 1% of Gaza population.

Starve the kids and there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza.

Let them eat cake! Literally:
Cake in the time of war, in Gaza

Or meat, which is also available.


If you read Al Jazeera et al, you'd think there was no food at all in all of Gaza. In reality, many trucks enter through Kerem Shalom every day.

And we wonder why people in the Mid East hate us Americans.

They hate a lot of people. Jews, Americans, women who refuse to wear hijabs or burkas ...

 

[Derec]

Israel has possibly killed Marwan Issa, a high-ranking Hamas leader.
Israel Says It Targeted Marwan Issa, a Top Hamas Leader in Gaza

This is a very big deal if true.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Biden is ding the usual political two step. Hey come on Netanyahu I as POTUS am very unhappy about 30,000 casualties, but not to worry I'll keep the weapons flowing.

Why is he taking the Hamas figures seriously?
How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers

Hamas must be destroyed, or else they will keep attacking Israel.

Hamas can't be destroyed. So let's try to get our goals back in to what is actually possible.

Gaza will go down in history as one of our greatest moral failures. The eradication of a people.

Eradication of a people? The Gaza, after the war, will be very different than when they started the war on 10/7.
But there is no "eradication of a people". Even using Hamas numbers, 30k is just over 1% of Gaza population.

It is to be determined if there is a Gaza to return to.

Starve the kids and there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza.

Let them eat cake! Literally:
Cake in the time of war, in Gaza

Or meat, which is also available.


If you read Al Jazeera et al, you'd think there was no food at all in all of Gaza. In reality, many trucks enter through Kerem Shalom every day.

The trouble is, there is no power structure at the moment. So those in need very well might be able to access the goods. So is the failure of Hamas as far as any type of quasi-governance.

And we wonder why people in the Mid East hate us Americans.

They hate a lot of people. Jews, Americans, women who refuse to wear hijabs or burkas ...

Sure, but American and Western meddling definitely makes it harder to America to solve problems in the Middle East. That is definitely part of the problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel has possibly killed Marwan Issa, a high-ranking Hamas leader.
Israel Says It Targeted Marwan Issa, a Top Hamas Leader in Gaza

This is a very big deal if true.

Aren't the real leaders outside of Gaza, well outside? But hurray... they finally bagged someone important after how many bombs and bullets?

 

[Copernicus]

Starve the kids and there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza.

Let them eat cake! Literally:
Cake in the time of war, in Gaza

Or meat, which is also available.


If you read Al Jazeera et al, you'd think there was no food at all in all of Gaza. In reality, many trucks enter through Kerem Shalom every day.

The trouble is, there is no power structure at the moment. So those in need very well might be able to access the goods. So is the failure of Hamas as far as any type of quasi-governance.

The real trouble is that there is a vastly larger number of mouths and stomachs in Gaza than the few trucks allowed to enter through Kerem Shalom every day can feed. So famine is another method of killing innocent Palestinians, and I doubt that those who control the number of trucks going in are unaware of that. It will take about a month for the US to get its temporary aid port built, so it would be appropriate to stop all arms shipments to Israel at least until we can get enough food into the area so that they can survive long enough to be killed and injured by the weapons we supply the Israelis with.

 

[Derec]

The real trouble is that there is a vastly larger number of mouths and stomachs in Gaza than the few trucks allowed to enter through Kerem Shalom every day can feed.

It's more than "a few". The real problem is the distribution. Some of it is inevitable because of difficulties bringing the food and other supplies to the North from Rafah. But Hamas is also diverting these shipments. They really have been doing this since they took power - they are a kleptocratic regime in addition to being theocratic. That's how Hamas bigwigs amassed billions each.

So famine is another method of killing innocent Palestinians, and I doubt that those who control the number of trucks going in are unaware of that.

Israel has just allowed World Food Programme to bring food directly into the North using IDF military road. To blame Israel for this is typical though.
UN uses new land route from Israel to reach northern Gaza
It is Hamas who wants to see people starve because it's how they get support from the Arab Street and the useful idiots in the West.

It will take about a month for the US to get its temporary aid port built, so it would be appropriate to stop all arms shipments to Israel at least until we can get enough food into the area so that they can survive long enough to be killed and injured by the weapons we supply the Israelis with.

I get it. You want Israel to lose this war and for Hamas to prevail so they can be another 10/7, as they have said they will keep repeating that massacre over and over again.

 

[Derec]

Aren't the real leaders outside of Gaza, well outside?

A lot of them are. They should be arrested and tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Barring that, a 9mm brain hemorrhage for each of them courtesy of Mossad would work.

But hurray... they finally bagged someone important after how many bombs and bullets?

If confirmed, this would be the highest Hamas official killed in Gaza during this war, but hardly the only high-ranking one.
IDF estimates about 13k terror fighters killed (most probably Hamas, others would be with Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, PRC and other splitters). Moreover, numerous tunnels were identified and destroyed, as well as weapons caches and manufacturing facilities and other sites belonging to Hamas and other terror groups. Success is not just measured in top brass being eliminated.

 

[Derec]

Palestinian terrorist cell discovered in Italy

Italian police arrest three Palestinians on terrorism charges

Note that the three are members of the so-called "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades", the terror wing of the supposedly moderate Fatah which runs the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Derec]

Hamas can't be destroyed. So let's try to get our goals back in to what is actually possible.

Of course it can be destroyed. NSDAP was destroyed, and Hamas can be too.
Of course, it can't be destroyed if Israel is pressured to stop before the job is done. Biden must drop his silly objection to the Rafah offensive.

Now, destroying the ideology behind it will be harder. But Germany was successfully denazified. So it is possible, albeit not easy.

It is to be determined if there is a Gaza to return to.

What do you mean by "return to"? Very few Gazans have left the Strip.
But yes, there has been widespread destruction, especially in the North. That's the nature of warfare.
There was also widespread destruction in Germany (which incidentally also started the war) but nobody is accusing the Allies of "eradicating" German people.

The trouble is, there is no power structure at the moment. So those in need very well might be able to access the goods. So is the failure of Hamas as far as any type of quasi-governance.

Is that Israel's fault?

Sure, but American and Western meddling definitely makes it harder to America to solve problems in the Middle East. That is definitely part of the problem.

How can you solve any problems without being accused of "meddling" by those who either don't want you to solve the problem or don't like the way you are solving them?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hamas can't be destroyed. So let's try to get our goals back in to what is actually possible.

Of course it can be destroyed. NSDAP was destroyed, and Hamas can be too.
Of course, it can't be destroyed if Israel is pressured to stop before the job is done.

When is the "job done"?

Biden must drop his silly objection to the Rafah offensive.

Biden wants a plan. There is no plan.

Now, destroying the ideology behind it will be harder. But Germany was successfully denazified. So it is possible, albeit not easy.

It is to be determined if there is a Gaza to return to.

What do you mean by "return to"? Very few Gazans have left the Strip.
But yes, there has been widespread destruction, especially in the North. That's the nature of warfare.
There was also widespread destruction in Germany (which incidentally also started the war) but nobody is accusing the Allies of "eradicating" German people.

The Germans ended up living in Germany afterward. They weren't all displaced to a small region in Bavaria. The point was, there is still doubt as to whether there is a home for them in Gaza for them to return to. There is still a possibility that Netanyahu has no interest in letting these people re-settle. They certainly can't afford to rebuild.

The trouble is, there is no power structure at the moment. So those in need very well might be able to access the goods. So is the failure of Hamas as far as any type of quasi-governance.

Is that Israel's fault?

It doesn't have to be their fault. It is a reality that needs to be recognized.

Sure, but American and Western meddling definitely makes it harder to America to solve problems in the Middle East. That is definitely part of the problem.

How can you solve any problems without being accused of "meddling" by those who either don't want you to solve the problem or don't like the way you are solving them?

...or maybe those people weren't pleased with the results of the prior meddling. It must be real hard living within a black and white world façade in a world that is actually gray.

 

[Copernicus]

The real trouble is that there is a vastly larger number of mouths and stomachs in Gaza than the few trucks allowed to enter through Kerem Shalom every day can feed.

It's more than "a few". The real problem is the distribution. Some of it is inevitable because of difficulties bringing the food and other supplies to the North from Rafah. But Hamas is also diverting these shipments. They really have been doing this since they took power - they are a kleptocratic regime in addition to being theocratic. That's how Hamas bigwigs amassed billions each.

We have no evidence that Hamas is the problem in food distribution, but that has been used as an excuse by Israel to stop or delay shipments. Slow inspections are more of a problem, and anything considered contraband takes an entire truckload out of the line. Before the fighting started, Gaza depended on 500 trucks per day. At present, far fewer than that make it through Kerem Shalom, although the exact amount that gets through varies every day.

How much humanitarian aid is getting into Gaza? The exact answer can be hard to know​

So famine is another method of killing innocent Palestinians, and I doubt that those who control the number of trucks going in are unaware of that.

Israel has just allowed World Food Programme to bring food directly into the North using IDF military road. To blame Israel for this is typical though.
UN uses new land route from Israel to reach northern Gaza
It is Hamas who wants to see people starve because it's how they get support from the Arab Street and the useful idiots in the West.

Apparently, the US government, which blames Israel for insufficient aid supplies, is what you consider "useful idiots in the West". And the criticism isn't just coming from "the West". It is worldwide condemnation. Europe and the US are now trying to force more supplies into Gaza, but the only aid that really gets through unimpeded are arms shipments to Israel.

It will take about a month for the US to get its temporary aid port built, so it would be appropriate to stop all arms shipments to Israel at least until we can get enough food into the area so that they can survive long enough to be killed and injured by the weapons we supply the Israelis with.

I get it. You want Israel to lose this war and for Hamas to prevail so they can be another 10/7, as they have said they will keep repeating that massacre over and over again.

I have explicitly, repeatedly, and consistently condemned Hamas throughout this thread. Shame on you for replying with a personal attack on me rather than a valid argument against what I posted.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Hamas can't be destroyed. So let's try to get our goals back in to what is actually possible.

Of course it can be destroyed. NSDAP was destroyed, and Hamas can be too.
Of course, it can't be destroyed if Israel is pressured to stop before the job is done. Biden must drop his silly objection to the Rafah offensive.

Now, destroying the ideology behind it will be harder. But Germany was successfully denazified. So it is possible, albeit not easy.

It is to be determined if there is a Gaza to return to.

What do you mean by "return to"? Very few Gazans have left the Strip.
But yes, there has been widespread destruction, especially in the North. That's the nature of warfare.
There was also widespread destruction in Germany (which incidentally also started the war) but nobody is accusing the Allies of "eradicating" German people.

The trouble is, there is no power structure at the moment. So those in need very well might be able to access the goods. So is the failure of Hamas as far as any type of quasi-governance.

Is that Israel's fault?

Sure, but American and Western meddling definitely makes it harder to America to solve problems in the Middle East. That is definitely part of the problem.

How can you solve any problems without being accused of "meddling" by those who either don't want you to solve the problem or don't like the way you are solving them?

Silly objection??? I totally understand why Israel is so pissed. But they have to understand that over time, overreaching will hurt Israel in the long term. Israel can't survive long term solely relying on allies like Trump and other hard liners. If Biden loses in 24, it will most likely due to his support of Israel. Maybe that is what you want. But Israel will in trouble in the future if they lose the support of American moderates and other moderates in the world.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The real trouble is that there is a vastly larger number of mouths and stomachs in Gaza than the few trucks allowed to enter through Kerem Shalom every day can feed.

It's more than "a few". The real problem is the distribution. Some of it is inevitable because of difficulties bringing the food and other supplies to the North from Rafah. But Hamas is also diverting these shipments. They really have been doing this since they took power - they are a kleptocratic regime in addition to being theocratic. That's how Hamas bigwigs amassed billions each.

We have no evidence that Hamas is the problem in food distribution, but that has been used as an excuse by Israel to stop or delay shipments. Slow inspections are more of a problem, and anything considered contraband takes an entire truckload out of the line. Before the fighting started, Gaza depended on 500 trucks per day. At present, far fewer than that make it through Kerem Shalom, although the exact amount that gets through varies every day.

How much humanitarian aid is getting into Gaza? The exact answer can be hard to know​

So famine is another method of killing innocent Palestinians, and I doubt that those who control the number of trucks going in are unaware of that.

Israel has just allowed World Food Programme to bring food directly into the North using IDF military road. To blame Israel for this is typical though.
UN uses new land route from Israel to reach northern Gaza
It is Hamas who wants to see people starve because it's how they get support from the Arab Street and the useful idiots in the West.

Apparently, the US government, which blames Israel for insufficient aid supplies, is what you consider "useful idiots in the West". And the criticism isn't just coming from "the West". It is worldwide condemnation. Europe and the US are now trying to force more supplies into Gaza, but the only aid that really gets through unimpeded are arms shipments to Israel.

You can't tell millions of people to displace to somewhere else and then just leave them there with little in the way of support for this they'd need due to said displacement.

This continues to show that some people are for a war against Gaza, where as others support war against Hamas.

It will take about a month for the US to get its temporary aid port built, so it would be appropriate to stop all arms shipments to Israel at least until we can get enough food into the area so that they can survive long enough to be killed and injured by the weapons we supply the Israelis with.

I get it. You want Israel to lose this war and for Hamas to prevail so they can be another 10/7, as they have said they will keep repeating that massacre over and over again.

This is a presumption that the actions being taken by the IDF are going to prevent another 10/7. They aren't, just like all the other security decisions by Netanyahu didn't actually stop 10/7. This is just the typical response from people that love to punish. It doesn't matter if it is counterproductive, they got a rage boner, and god darn it, they gonna love the rage.

 

[laughing dog]

This is a presumption that the actions being taken by the IDF are going to prevent another 10/7. They aren't, just like all the other security decisions by Netanyahu didn't actually stop 10/7. This is just the typical response from people that love to punish. It doesn't matter if it is counterproductive, they got a rage boner, and god darn it, they gonna love the rage.

IMO that nails it perfectly. Security is the fig leaf for revenge and punishment.

 

[TomC]

You can't tell millions of people to displace to somewhere else and then just leave them there with little in the way of support for this they'd need due to said displacement.

Sure you can.
Just ask Hamas, Egypt, UN, Iran...

Really, the list of people who want Gazans to die rather than give up the power they hold in the international community is huge.

Back, 75 years ago, it would have been better to produce a better place for Zionists to move to than The Holy Land. But all those people didn't. Now, it's better if they find a better place for Palestinians than The Holy Land.

How about that? Do what is best for the civilians who are just trying to live a life and feed their kids. Currently, that would be opening the border to Egypt.
Tom