Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

I'd say it's more like brainwashed or something. Assuming someone needs to be at least 5 to understand what is going on outside their own family, only people older than 23 even remember life before Hamas and have little experience with a world that doesn't include the barrage of meddling from outsiders.

Exactly. The Palestinians are brainwashing victims. There's no possible fix so long as the brainwashing continues.

 

[Arctish]

It appears that a ceasefire is very close to happening:

Blinken Turns Up Pressure on Hamas to Accept Gaza Cease-Fire Deal

“The time is now,” Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken declared, urging Hamas to accept the terms of a proposed truce. He also made clear that he expected more from Israel.

www.nytimes.com

Seems to be in Hamas's court.

This was posted to the thread earlier:

Netanyahu vows to follow through with Rafah attack - BBC News

The Israeli prime minister says the invasion will proceed "with or without" a truce with Hamas.

www.bbc.com

Would you say that this type of communication is conducive to a ceasefire?

I want to be optimistic, but I don't know what is going to happen here.

It looks to me like Netanyahu is trying to derail talk of a ceasefire, which he has come out against repeatedly in the past. Biden appears to be feeding him with the impression that nothing he says or does will change US policy, effectively undercutting any influence that the US could have on the man's behavior.

Israel isn't interested in a cease fire that doesn't involve the return of all the hostages. Why in the world should they be expected to accept anything less?

(And note that this turned out to be false, anyway--Hamas quietly changed the terms to be utterly unacceptable.)

What were the terms of the proposed ceasefire?

What did Hamas change them to?

We can discuss what made the new terms unacceptable when we know what they were.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Each time a journalist dies or is injured, we lose a fragment of the truth.

There have been a lot of local journalists who have died. I wonder how many of them had journalism as a day job, but were also fighters for Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

Speaking of the latter:
IDF says strike in Rafah killed Islamic Jihad commander who helped lead Oct. 7 attack

There's a reason they don't publish the full names of the "journalists". Those dead "journalists" are at best embedded reporters and most likely Hamas.

 

[Derec]

Here's an interesting story that is related to Derec's big mistake about assuming military aged men* in a warzone should be shot and killed.

I did not say that. Why do you insist on misrepresenting what I wrote? I merely wrote that we should assume that military aged men in a war zone are civilians, like that tweet was doing.

Of the 278 Israeli soldiers killed in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s ground offensive against Hamas, which began in late October, at least 49 were killed by friendly fire and in other accidents, according to IDF data.

Sad, but friendly fire incidents are a sad fact on modern warfare.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looks to me like you have simply decided that Netanyahu is a criminal and sticking to it.

Until I see evidence that Bibi wants peace, or some reason why his freedom from prosecution does not rely on persistently urgent emergency conditions, I will continue to believe that he does not favor peace, he needs continuing emergency conditions to avoid prosecution and retain office, and people are dying because of it.

Sounds to me like you have decided that there is no number of dead Palestinians that could make up for the heinous acts of Hamas on 10/7, and will reliably favor Bibi's favored course of action over any alternative that might have been taken. I tend to agree with the first part.

The problem is that you see it as a tit-for-tat. It's not. Israel's main objective is to recover the hostages, not to rack up some particular kill count. A desired objective is also the destruction of Hamas but they have already shown they're willing to stop shooting if the hostages come home.

The hostages are real people, not game pieces.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's like Hammas is holding up a cute kitten and saying, "do what I tell you or I'll kill the kitten". And then when Israel doesn't do what they're told we then blame Israel for the kitten dying.

Hammas is playing the world press and popular opinion like a fiddle. Palestinian terror groups have been doing this since the 1970'ies. Don't be such a sucker.

In order to be able to protect Palestinian civilians long term I think it's necessary for some shock treatment and rip these fuckers out by the roots. Or the Palestinian people will continue getting hurt, for all eternity.

I don't think ripping Hamas out by the roots will solve it. The Iranian hydra will simply grow a new head. Peace can only come once nobody's funding the terror.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder if beliefs like the following could explain Israel's comfort with killing children?

Rav Yosef says: Come and hear a resolution from a mishna (Nidda 44b): A girl who is three years and one day old whose father arranged her betrothal is betrothed with intercourse, as the legal status of intercourse with her is that of full-fledged intercourse. And in a case where the childless husband of a girl who is three years and one day old dies, if his brother, the yavam, engages in intercourse with her, he acquires her as his wife; and if she is married, a man other than her husband is liable for engaging in intercourse with her due to the prohibition of intercourse with a married woman. - Sanhedrin 55B

This bizarre level of anti -Jewish bias is probably why I come across as more staunchly Zionist, in this thread, than I really am.
Tom

Citing rabbinical ideas is anti-Jewish? Ok….

Well your very first sentence is incredibly bigoted. Then you cite some bizzare quote “rabbinal idea” to describe how all Jews think? Most Jews I know are atheist. But do you think it would be fair to describe Americans as people who get their values from Leviticus?

I find it strange that I have never heard of this despite many mentions of Mohammad and the 9 year old whose name eludes me at present.

Digging into it a bit it seems that the interpretation is that the same standard that applies in the Bible applies here--raping a woman makes her your wife. This is a discussion of an unpleasant reality, not a claim of something good. That is also my general impression of the Talmud--it's a discussion of how things are, not a book of what is right.

 

[Derec]

Because they are military aged men IN A WARZONE DURING AN ACTIVE WAR. We can't just assume they were civilians.

Well, here’s a thought experiment for you to imagine not assuming they are guilty and deserve death.

It's a stupid thought experiment predicated on a misrepresentation. I never said they should be assumed guilty, just that they should not be assumed to be civilians.

 

[Derec]

Rifles would have been observed if they were there.

Maybe, maybe not. And maybe they were not carrying rifles at the time, but were going to or from a staging area. Maybe they are not rifle-carrying infantry but members of a rocket launching team. And maybe they were followed by a drone and eliminated when there were no innocent bystanders around. I am not saying that's what happened, but it is possible.

HOLY SHIT.!! ..you just justified killing all Palestinian males.

I did not. But we should not assume they were civilians and assume IDF did wrong without knowing the whole story.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except that isn't true. Hamas has offered trades from the beginning of hostages for prisoners. Israel has at times accepted this and also included exchanges in possible negotiations from their side. Therefore, they are not being forced to do this. It's a choice.

Except this is too much to be obtained by negotiation.

You need a reality check. Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world. Resistances against superior forces use guerilla tactics. This has been going on for centuries if not millennia. Guerilla tactics include hiding and shooting from cover and unknown locations, blending into surroundings, and camouflage. In the case of guerillas living in a city being attacked by a superior force they hide and shoot from around corners. So yeah this is how it works. Destruction and deaths are rather unfortunate but it doesn't mean people are holding kittens. Except of course when they are. This is because war is also about politics and propaganda. And to the extent that each side can propagandize something, they will.

Guerilla tactics are not the same as terror tactics. The guerilla shoots at valid targets and hides. The terrorist shoots at invalid targets and hides.

 

[Derec]

Of course one can make that assumption, especially since they were moving away from any action.

How do you know that?

 

[Derec]

Seems like a great pretext for genocide.

Over the last 7 months, this has been the most overused word. It even overtook "racism".

All men are evil enemies. All women are support personnel for evil enemies. All children are future evil enemies or else future support personnel for evil enemies.

I did not say anything like that. I just said that we should not assume that these four were civilians. Just because some tweet says it, doesn't make it so.

South Africa urged the U.N.'s top court on Thursday to order a halt to Israel's offensive on Rafah, saying attacks on the southern Gaza city "must be stopped" to ensure the survival of the Palestinian people.

The people will survive. But to root out the remaining Hamas battalions and the leadership, taking Rafah is imperative.
Why should Rafah be off limits?

South Africa's ambassador to the Netherlands, Vusimuzi Madonsela, asked judges to order Israel to "immediately, totally and unconditionally, withdraw the Israeli army from the entirety of the Gaza Strip."

And leave Hamas in power. So they can attack Israel again as they have vowed.
This is idiotic.

South Africa also asked the court to order Israel to allow unimpeded access to Gaza for U.N. officials, organisations providing humanitarian aid, journalists and investigators.

UN is strongly biased against Israel. Any UN investigator would not be partial. Just look at that Albanese woman.

Israel's military campaign has killed tens of thousands of children and women, destroyed civilian infrastructure and starved the population, South Africa's legal team told the court.

People get killed in wars. This war was started by Hamas. Nobody else.
Of course, aid needs to be let in. But what about Hamas shooting missiles at the Kerem Shalom crossing?

"From the onset Israel's intent was always to destroy Palestinian life and to wipe them off the face of the earth. Rafah is the final stand," Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, one of the legal team, said.

Rafah is the final stand for the remaining Hamas battalions. I think South Africa is working on behalf of Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

The International Criminal Court’s prosecutor faced demands Tuesday for speedy action against Israeli leaders and a blistering Russian attack over the ICC’s arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin stemming from Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.

There should also be arrest warrants for Ismail Hanniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Ghazi Hamas, Yaya Sinwar etc.

Karim Khan responded by telling the U.N. Security Council that he will not be swayed or intimidated as his team investigates possible war crimes or crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Palestinian territories as well as in Ukraine.

Why no investigation into war crimes by Hamas?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Here's an interesting story that is related to Derec's big mistake about assuming military aged men* in a warzone should be shot and killed.

I did not say that. Why do you insist on misrepresenting what I wrote? I merely wrote that we should assume that military aged men in a war zone are civilians, like that tweet was doing.

You insist on misrepresenting what you wrote.

Of the 278 Israeli soldiers killed in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s ground offensive against Hamas, which began in late October, at least 49 were killed by friendly fire and in other accidents, according to IDF data.

Sad, but friendly fire incidents are a sad fact on modern warfare.

The AMOUNT of friendly fire is indicative of rushing aggressively and persistent reckless assumptions. There is no expectation those kinds of problems do not extend to the Palestinian civilians.

 

[Elixir]

The problem is that you see it as a tit-for-tat. It's not. Israel's main objective is to recover the hostages, not to rack up some particular kill count.

There was a deal for hostages and Bibi killed it because it also meant stopping killing Gazans.
What part of “Bibi does not want peace” don’t you understand?

 

[ZiprHead]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of the story? Other than your anti-Israel Palestine bias, of course?

 

[ZiprHead]

Here's an interesting story that is related to Derec's big mistake about assuming military aged men* in a warzone should be shot and killed.

I did not say that. Why do you insist on misrepresenting what I wrote? I merely wrote that we should assume that military aged men in a war zone are civilians, like that tweet was doing.

You insist on misrepresenting what you wrote.

Of the 278 Israeli soldiers killed in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s ground offensive against Hamas, which began in late October, at least 49 were killed by friendly fire and in other accidents, according to IDF data.

Sad, but friendly fire incidents are a sad fact on modern warfare.

The AMOUNT of friendly fire is indicative of rushing aggressively and persistent reckless assumptions. There is no expectation those kinds of problems do not extend to the Palestinian civilians.

It's indicative of the IDF tactic to kill anything that moves in an IDF declared war zone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world.

That's an interesting assertion.

I'll give you USA, China, and Russia as the top 3. Questionable as Russia gets kicked in the ass by Ukraine but still...

Why do you think Israel is #4, in a world with Japan, Iran, and Britain?

I'm sure that the French are outraged! Outraged!

Tom

I wonder how they are making the comparison between forces. Israel has nothing in the realm of the Vanguard submarines.

 

[lpetrich]

Seems like a great pretext for genocide.

Over the last 7 months, this has been the most overused word. It even overtook "racism".

"Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo. Don't call it genocide." has joined "Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo. Don't call us racists." it seems.

All men are evil enemies. All women are support personnel for evil enemies. All children are future evil enemies or else future support personnel for evil enemies.

I did not say anything like that.

It was implied by your presumption that *every* Gazan is a legitimate target.

I just said that we should not assume that these four were civilians.

Trying to shift the burden of proof.

South Africa urged the U.N.'s top court on Thursday to order a halt to Israel's offensive on Rafah, saying attacks on the southern Gaza city "must be stopped" to ensure the survival of the Palestinian people.

The people will survive.

Empty assertion.

South Africa's ambassador to the Netherlands, Vusimuzi Madonsela, asked judges to order Israel to "immediately, totally and unconditionally, withdraw the Israeli army from the entirety of the Gaza Strip."

And leave Hamas in power. So they can attack Israel again as they have vowed.

Cry me a river about Hamas.

South Africa also asked the court to order Israel to allow unimpeded access to Gaza for U.N. officials, organisations providing humanitarian aid, journalists and investigators.

UN is strongly biased against Israel.

What would you consider unbiased?

Israel's military campaign has killed tens of thousands of children and women, destroyed civilian infrastructure and starved the population, South Africa's legal team told the court.

People get killed in wars.

This war was started by Hamas. Nobody else.

Provoked, yes. But Israel could have done other things, like support the Palestinian Authority, crack down on West Bank settlers, and offer any Gazan who rejects Hamas a chance to live in the State of Israel.

The International Criminal Court’s prosecutor faced demands Tuesday for speedy action against Israeli leaders and a blistering Russian attack over the ICC’s arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin stemming from Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.

There should also be arrest warrants for Ismail Hanniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Ghazi Hamas, Yaya Sinwar etc.

I agree. They should be cellmates with leaders of Israel charged with war crimes.

 

[laughing dog]

Of course one can make that assumption, especially since they were moving away from any action.

How do you know that?

I read with comprehension.

 

[laughing dog]

Seems like a great pretext for genocide.

Over the last 7 months, this has been the most overused word. It even overtook "racism".

All men are evil enemies. All women are support personnel for evil enemies. All children are future evil enemies or else future support personnel for evil enemies.

I did not say anything like that. I just said that we should not assume that these four were civilians. Just because some tweet says it, doesn't make it so.

South Africa urged the U.N.'s top court on Thursday to order a halt to Israel's offensive on Rafah, saying attacks on the southern Gaza city "must be stopped" to ensure the survival of the Palestinian people.

The people will survive. But to root out the remaining Hamas battalions and the leadership, taking Rafah is imperative.
Why should Rafah be off limits?

South Africa's ambassador to the Netherlands, Vusimuzi Madonsela, asked judges to order Israel to "immediately, totally and unconditionally, withdraw the Israeli army from the entirety of the Gaza Strip."

And leave Hamas in power. So they can attack Israel again as they have vowed.
This is idiotic.

South Africa also asked the court to order Israel to allow unimpeded access to Gaza for U.N. officials, organisations providing humanitarian aid, journalists and investigators.

UN is strongly biased against Israel. Any UN investigator would not be partial. Just look at that Albanese woman.

Israel's military campaign has killed tens of thousands of children and women, destroyed civilian infrastructure and starved the population, South Africa's legal team told the court.

People get killed in wars. This war was started by Hamas. Nobody else.
Of course, aid needs to be let in. But what about Hamas shooting missiles at the Kerem Shalom crossing?

"From the onset Israel's intent was always to destroy Palestinian life and to wipe them off the face of the earth. Rafah is the final stand," Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, one of the legal team, said.

Rafah is the final stand for the remaining Hamas battalions. I think South Africa is working on behalf of Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

The International Criminal Court’s prosecutor faced demands Tuesday for speedy action against Israeli leaders and a blistering Russian attack over the ICC’s arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin stemming from Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.

There should also be arrest warrants for Ismail Hanniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Ghazi Hamas, Yaya Sinwar etc.

Karim Khan responded by telling the U.N. Security Council that he will not be swayed or intimidated as his team investigates possible war crimes or crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Palestinian territories as well as in Ukraine.

Why no investigation into war crimes by Hamas?

The ICC deals with disputes and crimes by states. Gaza is not a state.