Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[lpetrich]

Intercepted: A Canadian Doctor on His Medical Mission to Gaza - March 23 2024, 5:00 a.m. - "“I saw scenes that were horrific and I never want to see again,” said Yasser Khan, a surgeon from Toronto."

Gaza Humanitarian Worker: Biden Is on Board for Ethnic Cleansing - March 23 2024, 6:00 a.m. - "I helped with airlifts in Afghanistan, aid to the Ukrainian front, and building roads in Rwanda. None of it prepared me for the challenges of Gaza."

U.S. Doubles Down on Defunding UNRWA — Despite Flimsy Allegations - March 22 2024, 5:19 p.m. - "Congress passed a one-year ban on UNRWA funds even as several Western countries have resumed funding for the U.N. agency that aids Palestinians."

 

[lpetrich]

Say What These Attacks Are: Not Just Islamophobia, but Anti-Palestinianism - March 18 2024, 5:00 a.m. - "From Joe Biden on down, liberals denounce anti-Muslim bias to avoid mentioning the scourge of hate against Palestinians."

I agree that lots of people seem to suffer from Paliphobia, for lack of a better word, irrational hostility toward Palestinians.

Pro-Israel Hollywood Says Jonathan Glazer Oscar Speech Is Antisemitic - March 19 2024, 5:12 p.m. - "A pro-Israel letter denounced Jonathan Glazer for antisemitism — comparing his Oscar speech to a medieval “blood libel.”"

The backlash against even the mildest-mannered protests for Gaza at the Oscars was predictable. Artists, musicians, and actors who wore a pin symbolizing a call for a ceasefire in Israel–Palestine are being called antisemitic.

“The Zone of Interest” director Jonathan Glazer, however, went further in his Oscars acceptance speech: He actually said something. After winning the Academy Award for best international film, Glazer objected that his own Jewishness and the memory of the Holocaust were “being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people. Whether the victims of October — whether the victims of October the 7th in Israel or the ongoing attack on Gaza.”

FBI Warns Gaza War Will Stoke Domestic Radicalization “For Years to Come” - The Intercept - March 14 2024, 1:22 p.m. - "The FBI is investigating “thousands” of threats related to the Israel–Hamas conflict."

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israeli leader Netanyahu faces growing pressure at home after Biden's Gaza proposal

Israel’s prime minister faces growing pressure after U.S. President Joe Biden described a proposed agreement to end the fighting in Gaza.

apnews.com

The statement from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office came a day after Biden outlined the plan, and as families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas called for all parties to immediately accept the proposal. A major demonstration in Israel on Saturday night urged the government to act now.

And a joint statement by mediators the U.S., Egypt and Qatar pressed Israel and Hamas, saying the proposed deal “offers a road map for a permanent cease-fire and ending the crisis” and gives immediate relief to both the hostages and Gaza residents.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And turns out Hamas isn't even interested in talking:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-ready-reach-complete-agreement-including-hostagesprisoners-exchange-deal-2024-05-30/

From your link:

"Today, we informed the mediators of our clear position that if the occupation stops its war and aggression against our people in Gaza, our readiness (is) to reach a complete agreement that includes a comprehensive exchange deal," it added.

Foot, meet bullet.

Your quote amounts to: Stop shooting, then we'll talk.

Israel's proposal up to this point has been: Surrender, and we'll stop shooting. The first step in mediating a violent conflict is to stop the shooting. Netanyahu has other reasons to keep the shooting going. He has just announced that Hamas has to be destroyed before the shooting stops.

Israel says conditions for ending Gaza war "have not changed," seemingly contradicting Biden​

From day 1 they have had the non-negotiable position of getting their hostages back. They know ceasefire and talk will not work.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Tens of thousands protest ruling coalition, demand hostage deal following U.S. proposal

***

www.haaretz.com

'Biden, Save Them From Netanyahu' | Tens of Thousands of Israelis Protest Ruling Coalition, Demand Hostage Deal Following U.S. Gaza Proposal​

Police clashed with protesters in Tel Aviv; A hostage's mother said Biden delivered speech 'because he knows Netanyahu can sabotage the deal.' Hostages families led protests at cabinet members homes across Israel to convince them to accept Biden deal...

 

[Arctish]

And turns out Hamas isn't even interested in talking:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-ready-reach-complete-agreement-including-hostagesprisoners-exchange-deal-2024-05-30/

From your link:

"Today, we informed the mediators of our clear position that if the occupation stops its war and aggression against our people in Gaza, our readiness (is) to reach a complete agreement that includes a comprehensive exchange deal," it added.

Foot, meet bullet.

Your quote amounts to: Stop shooting, then we'll talk.

Israel's proposal up to this point has been: Surrender, and we'll stop shooting. The first step in mediating a violent conflict is to stop the shooting. Netanyahu has other reasons to keep the shooting going. He has just announced that Hamas has to be destroyed before the shooting stops.

Israel says conditions for ending Gaza war "have not changed," seemingly contradicting Biden​

From day 1 they have had the non-negotiable position of getting their hostages back. They know ceasefire and talk will not work.

Then what was it that resulted in Israel getting hostages back in November?

Reuters seems to think in was talks and a ceasefire.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And turns out Hamas isn't even interested in talking:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-ready-reach-complete-agreement-including-hostagesprisoners-exchange-deal-2024-05-30/

From your link:

"Today, we informed the mediators of our clear position that if the occupation stops its war and aggression against our people in Gaza, our readiness (is) to reach a complete agreement that includes a comprehensive exchange deal," it added.

Foot, meet bullet.

Your quote amounts to: Stop shooting, then we'll talk.

Israel's proposal up to this point has been: Surrender, and we'll stop shooting. The first step in mediating a violent conflict is to stop the shooting. Netanyahu has other reasons to keep the shooting going. He has just announced that Hamas has to be destroyed before the shooting stops.

Israel says conditions for ending Gaza war "have not changed," seemingly contradicting Biden​

From day 1 they have had the non-negotiable position of getting their hostages back. They know ceasefire and talk will not work.

Then what was it that resulted in Israel getting hostages back in November?

Reuters seems to think in was talks and a ceasefire.

According to Loren, the hostage families want the hostages dead anyway. But see above post...

 

[Derec]

Intercepted: A Canadian Doctor on His Medical Mission to Gaza - March 23 2024, 5:00 a.m. - "“I saw scenes that were horrific and I never want to see again,” said Yasser Khan, a surgeon from Toronto."

"Canadian" ...
Also, Teh Intercept again and again? One of the most anti-Israel news outlets outside of Press TV?
And nobody denies that conditions in Gaza are difficult. But let's not forget who started this war, and who is still holding ~100 innocent hostages.

Gaza Humanitarian Worker: Biden Is on Board for Ethnic Cleansing - March 23 2024, 6:00 a.m. - "I helped with airlifts in Afghanistan, aid to the Ukrainian front, and building roads in Rwanda. None of it prepared me for the challenges of Gaza."

Nothing in that article supports the claim that Biden is in favor of ethnic cleansing. Btw, it is Gaza that has been ethnically cleansed and made "judenrein".

U.S. Doubles Down on Defunding UNRWA — Despite Flimsy Allegations - March 22 2024, 5:19 p.m. - "Congress passed a one-year ban on UNRWA funds even as several Western countries have resumed funding for the U.N. agency that aids Palestinians."

UNRWA is an anachronism and should be disbanded and its duties folded under UNHCR.
Furthermore, the idea that Palestinian refugeedom is a hereditary status should be abandoned.

 

[Derec]

I agree that lots of people seem to suffer from Paliphobia, for lack of a better word, irrational hostility toward Palestinians.

Nothing irrational about opposing the dominant ideologies in Palestinian society, for example support for terrorism and rejection of Israel's right to exist and defend itself.

FBI Warns Gaza War Will Stoke Domestic Radicalization “For Years to Come” - The Intercept - March 14 2024, 1:22 p.m. - "The FBI is investigating “thousands” of threats related to the Israel–Hamas conflict."

We should not have to cave to the Israel haters just to avoid the threat they pose.

 

[Derec]

Israeli leader Netanyahu faces growing pressure at home after Biden's Gaza proposal

Israel’s prime minister faces growing pressure after U.S. President Joe Biden described a proposed agreement to end the fighting in Gaza.

apnews.com

Biden is desperately trying to appease the Rashida Tlaib (who spoke at a PFLP-sponsored anti-Israel conference) wing of the Democratic Party. It's disgusting and pathertic!

Before, he recognized the necessity of defeating Hamas. Now he wants a "permanent" (i.e. until Hamas decides to break it) ceasefire deal that
- frees only some of the hostages in exchange for 100s of terrorists in Israeli prisons. Yes, it does specify release of the remaining hostages in the 2nd phase, but it does not specify what Israel would have to give up in return. It is almost certain that Hamas will cling to their demand that all terrorists be freed from Israeli prisons.
- forces Israel to withdraw from Gaza
- says that 600 trucks per day in aid should be allowed in, but that is more than the 500 trucks/day that went into the Strip before the war. What would be in the extra 100 trucks?
- imposes a "permanent" ceasefire with Hamas still in power - meaning that they will be able to regroup, rearm and attack again.

Biden should be steadfast and tell Hamas. Either you agree to
- free all hostages immediately, no exceptions, at a ratio no worse than the one from November. Furthermore, no prisoners serving life sentences may be part of the deal
- Hamas leadership must surrender unconditionally to be tried for their crimes.
- All UNRWA schools should be investigated for spreading Hamas propaganda in schools. A fundamental curriculum change will be part of the broader de-Hamasification (similar to the de-Nazification in Germany).

If this deal is not met, Biden should threaten to remove any and all "red lines" imposed on Israel, implicit and explicit, and to increase weapons shipments including the GBU-57A/B MOP 30,000 pound bunker buster bombs. That one should be able to reach even into Yahya Sinwar's Führerbunker ...
If it is met, an interim technocratic government will be organized with the aim to commence rebuilding of Gaza and to hold elections (Hamas and Islamic Jihad or any factions embracing terrorism would not be eligible) within a year in all Palestinian territories.

 

[Derec]

'Biden, Save Them From Netanyahu' | Tens of Thousands of Israelis Protest Ruling Coalition, Demand Hostage Deal Following U.S. Gaza Proposal

The only reason Yahya Sinwar is running Gaza right now is that Netanyahu foolishly freed him along with >1000 other terrorists. I am sure he is very well aware how badly he screwed up with the Shalit deal.

Hamas is demanding 100s of terrorists in exchange for the minority of hostages they still hold (and it is questionable how many are still alive). They will most likely demand their absolutist demand (that they have made since the beginning of this war) that all Palestinian prisoners be released in order to get the rest of the hostages - an absolute non-starter for Israel.

 

[Derec]

Then what was it that resulted in Israel getting hostages back in November?

The bombing throughout October and November convinced Hamas to back off their demand that all Palestinian prisoners be freed at least for some hostages.
On October 7th they were demanding all Palestinian prisoners be freed.
Hamas says it has enough Israeli captives to free all Palestinian prisoners

Reuters seems to think in was talks and a ceasefire.

Talks, backed up by military action. And even so, they only agreed to release a very small number of hostages. They still want to extract an exorbitant price for the rest of them.

 

[Arctish]

Then what was it that resulted in Israel getting hostages back in November?

The bombing throughout October and November convinced Hamas to back off their demand that all Palestinian prisoners be freed at least for some hostages.
On October 7th they were demanding all Palestinian prisoners be freed.
Hamas says it has enough Israeli captives to free all Palestinian prisoners

Reuters seems to think in was talks and a ceasefire.

Talks, backed up by military action.

And also, a ceasefire.

 

[Derec]

And also, a ceasefire.

A temporary one. More of a pause.

 

[Arctish]

And also, a ceasefire.

A temporary one. More of a pause.

And your point is...?

 

[TV and credit cards]

And nobody denies that conditions in Gaza are difficult. But let's not forget who started this war, and who is still holding ~100 innocent hostages.

100. That's it? Israel has been holding two million hostages for seventeen years, devastating the economy, depriving the people of opportunity, wasting any talent that might develop. So of course it's difficult. Israel has made it so.
How could it not have come to this?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israeli leader Netanyahu faces growing pressure at home after Biden's Gaza proposal

Israel’s prime minister faces growing pressure after U.S. President Joe Biden described a proposed agreement to end the fighting in Gaza.

apnews.com

Biden is desperately trying to appease the Rashida Tlaib (who spoke at a PFLP-sponsored anti-Israel conference) wing of the Democratic Party. It's disgusting and pathertic!

Biden is not trying to appease Rashida Tlaib, he's trying desperately to navigate a complex issue and find a path somewhere in the middle between two extremes that both result in unacceptable amounts of death and destruction. Finding good middle-ground solutions may be difficult, but killing 100,000 Gazans is not the way to go according to way more people than merely Rashida Tlaib who essentially has no political power.

Before, he recognized the necessity of defeating Hamas. Now he wants a "permanent" (i.e. until Hamas decides to break it) ceasefire deal that
- frees only some of the hostages in exchange for 100s of terrorists in Israeli prisons.

You skipped over the actual technical detail of phase 1 which is NOT a permanent ceasefire, but instead a ceasefire and moving Israeli troops out of POPULATED areas in Gaza. In other words, the troops are still there close by during phase 1. This is the best bet to get more hostages as a ceasefire and talks has shown to be WAY MORE effective at doing so.

All this later speculation of a phase 2 below is something that might not even happen, not because it is not part of the proposal but instead because Israel and Palestinians hardly can keep a ceasefire:

Yes, it does specify release of the remaining hostages in the 2nd phase, but it does not specify what Israel would have to give up in return. It is almost certain that Hamas will cling to their demand that all terrorists be freed from Israeli prisons.
- forces Israel to withdraw from Gaza
- says that 600 trucks per day in aid should be allowed in, but that is more than the 500 trucks/day that went into the Strip before the war. What would be in the extra 100 trucks?
- imposes a "permanent" ceasefire with Hamas still in power - meaning that they will be able to regroup, rearm and attack again.

During the second phase, it is up to Israel and Gaza to negotiate. The further along in the phases etc, the more dynamic, unknown, and frankly hard to keep to the proposal it will be. I don't believe they will be able to keep a ceasefire anyway and so some other kind of international intervention or just a NEW PLAN may be necessary. And none of that is relevant because the immediate need is to maximize hostage release while minimizing civilian deaths.

Biden should be steadfast and tell Hamas. Either you agree to
- free all hostages immediately, no exceptions, at a ratio no worse than the one from November. Furthermore, no prisoners serving life sentences may be part of the deal
- Hamas leadership must surrender unconditionally to be tried for their crimes.
- All UNRWA schools should be investigated for spreading Hamas propaganda in schools. A fundamental curriculum change will be part of the broader de-Hamasification (similar to the de-Nazification in Germany).

That is a moronic idea that since Hamas would never accept, would result in more deaths of both Gazan civilians and eventually the hostages. We can observe from the past interactions between Israel and Hamas that the best course of action to get hostages released is to negotiate for hostage release, not useless ultimatums. Any of those things that could be non-starters in a current negotiation can be forced later on after Hamas gives up its leverage, i.e. the hostages. Ergo, having them give up leverage (and Israeli lives) is the immediate need. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

'Biden, Save Them From Netanyahu' | Tens of Thousands of Israelis Protest Ruling Coalition, Demand Hostage Deal Following U.S. Gaza Proposal

The only reason Yahya Sinwar is running Gaza right now is that Netanyahu foolishly freed him along with >1000 other terrorists. I am sure he is very well aware how badly he screwed up with the Shalit deal.

Who cares about that idiot Sinwar since if he wasn't in control of the Evil Idiot Brigade, then some other asshole would be in charge of them. Also, you and Loren claim that Israel has killed tens of thousands of Hamas and since that is out of 40,000, these people are being killed off or rather, it's a numbers game. If 1000 got released but then 20,000 are killed, that's a net loss of 19,000 Hamas.

Hamas is demanding 100s of terrorists in exchange for the minority of hostages they still hold (and it is questionable how many are still alive). They will most likely demand their absolutist demand (that they have made since the beginning of this war) that all Palestinian prisoners be released in order to get the rest of the hostages - an absolute non-starter for Israel.

Who cares again about what Hamas will say in the future since they will lose leverage when they have far fewer hostages and we know the ceasefire likely will not last anyway. Thus, those "100s of terrorists" are later going to face the severe risk of death and there will be more negotiation over more hostage releases later. The immediate goal should be to maximize hostage release and minimize civilian death, but since Israel is still in control of Gaza even if it withdraws out of populated areas such as Rafah, it still has leverage and Hamas is still at risk.

 

[Derec]

100. That's it? Israel has been holding two million hostages for seventeen years,

Bullshit.

devastating the economy,

It is Gazans themselves who ruined the economy. When Israel disengaged in 2005 and removed all settlers, they had a choice to choose peace. Instead, they chose to shoot rockets into Israel and otherwise attack their neighbor. That's why the blockade was instituted in the first place. And yes, that significantly harmed the economy, but it was not a wanton, capricious act by Israel, but rather a direct response to the hostile behavior of Gazans.
Note that something similar happened in 2023. Israel actually relaxes some of the rules, even issuing 1000s of work permits in Israel for Gazans. Then Gazans attacked Israel, and their economy is fucked up again. Don't blame Israel, though.

depriving the people of opportunity, wasting any talent that might develop. So of course it's difficult. Israel has made it so.
How could it not have come to this?

No. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other terror groups, who collectively enjoy support by most Gazans, made it so. And are still making it so.

 

[Derec]

And your point is...?

That the plan Biden is pushing is proposing a "permanent" ceasefire without Hamas being removed from power.