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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Show me Massey's voting record and/or statements on aid to Egypt and we'll talk about it.
Forget voting record, is he making snide Drake memes about Egypt like he is about Israel?

If you want to know what Massey said about Egypt, look it up yourself.
I think you don't know his record and don't care, either. I think you were just repeating a smear against a member of Congress who didn't rubber stamp the latest bill to support Israel.
I was just responding to The Nation piece. They found affinity with him over their shared opposition to Israel.

Opposition to Israel, or opposition to unlimited funding of Israel?

You do know there's a difference, right?
It says "Zionism", not "Zionist".
I know. I had fixed that typo before you finished your reply. I guess not before you started it.
And where is the pejorative usage? The meme is about Congress being openly supportive of Zionism, and not supportive of American patriotism.
While "Zionism" is just the belief that Israel should exist as the homeland for Jewish people, it is often used by antisemites who desire a figleaf.
For example these creeps:
DSCN1636.JPG

Massey himself is making a contrast between "American patriotism" and "Zionism" as if they were antithetical to each other.

No, he isn't.

He was criticizing fellow members of Congress for their apparent priorities and not putting America first. You can check out what he actually said about funding foreign nations instead of paying down the national debt, or you can continue to be uninformed.
Even Chuck Schumer, not a friend of the current Israeli government, called Massie out on the meme.
Schumer demands Massie take down 'antisemitic' meme
Nice list of talking points that ignore the fact the indigenous peoples of Palestine have been living in the area between the Jordan River Valley and the Mediterranean Sea for thousands of years, and that their ancestral claim to Palestine is not a function of their religious faith.
Again, if they were "indigenous people of Palestine", why are they using a Roman colonial term for it? A term that ultimately comes from Philistines, Sea Peoples who invaded the area of southern coastal plain during the Bronze Age collapse and that have no connection with Arabs that call themselves "Palestinian" these days.
"Palestinian" as an ethnic, rather than merely geographic, term is of recent origin.
1699008967987


You know the recent immigrants are mostly European Jews and Jews from other parts of the Middle East.
And many now considered Palestinian Arabs also immigrated from Egypt or Yemen or elsewhere. That's why UNRWA only required a two year residency, not "thousands of years" you are claiming.

So you want American money to be used to fund the theocrats in Tehran rather than give weapons to Israel so they can defend themselves?

No.

You wanted to know how I proposed to monitor spending of funds the US provides to ensure they are used for purposes Americans approve of. I gave you an example of how that kind of monitoring works IRL.
Should we be paying off Putin too instead of arming Ukraine? They are holding some of US citizens in prison too ...
Note also that money is fungible. Even if they do use the $6G Biden gave them in September for "humanitarian" purposes, that frees other $6G to fund terrorism.
Obama made a mistake with the Iran deal in 2015. It gave the regime sanction relief for very little in concessions, and that emboldened them.

Because he votes like a Libertarian and is endorsed by Libertarian organizations like Young Americans for Liberty. He wants to abolish the EPA and the Department of Education,
So does Rick Perry.

Just because he doesn't like spending doesn't mean he is a libertarian.

he consistently votes to scale back the use of the U.S. military abroad, and is on record saying he opposes all foreign aid out of concern about the national debt. There are many, many instances of him championing Libertarian causes and sponsoring bills that push the Libertarian agenda. More on his political positions can be found here.
He is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage, not very libertarian. Surprisingly, he seems to be somewhat pro-marijuana, so that's something in your column.

I said he was old school Libertarian.

The Libertarians of the late 20th century saw no conflict between opposing abortion and upholding personal liberty, since they did not believe any person has a right to attack another person, and they tended to be 'life begins at conception' Christian conservatives. Also, they generally ducked the gay marriage issue by saying the State can only oversee civil matters, not personal or religious ones.

What distinguished them from other conservatives and Republicans was their absolute horror watching Ronald Reagan drive up the deficit to fund military adventurism and prop up foreign governments.

Anyway, Massey is off-topic for this thread. We should get back to talking about Gaza.
 
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"MEMBERS
Between 20,000 and 25,000"
This war has shown that to be a gross underestimate. More realistic pre-war strength in Gaza would be ~40k fighters for Hamas and ~20k for allied terror groups like Islamic Jihad. Add to that the ~100k Hezbollah fighters (with an arsenal of rockets in the 1000s) attacking Israel from Lebanon. All of them funded, armed and directed from Tehran.
There are estimated to be 360,000 Russian troops in Ukraine.
Yes, but Ukraine has 3.5x the population and almost 30x the land mass of Israel. Again, challenges are different, but they both need US help.
Have you actually seen a map of Israel because you speak as if you haven't?
Of course I have. What is your point?
The rest of your post is just ridiculous. Hamas has small arms and home made dumb rockets.
More than a decade ago that was mostly true. Now they have more advanced rocketry that can even reach Tel Aviv. Now, all of them are dumb, but that is not a drawback for them, as they seek to terrorize the civilian population. For that purpose aiming them in the general direction of Israeli cities is quite sufficient. And if they fall short and kill Gazans instead, they just blame Israel and the world media just laps it up uncritically.
hamas-rocket-arsenal-graphic.jpg

Russia has tanks, artillery, radar stations, fighter jets, attack helicopters, long range guided missiles. You should be ashamed for posting that idiotic blather.
What is idiotic is to dismiss the danger posed by Hamas, Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies. Just because things are different in Ukraine, does not mean Israel does not require assistance.
 
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So, more civilian casualties may be the best way to bring more pressure on Hamas to release the hostages?
No, more Hamas (and other allied terror fighters) casualties would put more pressure.
Civilian causalities are just a tragic (for almost everyone) or useful (for Hamas and their allies) side effect.

Take the Nuseirat operation. Many (including, to his great shame, the EU foreign minister Josep Borell) have condemned Israel for it because of the high casualties even though it is Hamas' fault that they hold hostages in residential areas.
But let's take a closer look at the casualties. Even using Hamas ministry's numbers, it paints a picture.

How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed at least 274 Palestinians in Gaza
AP said:
The Gaza Health Ministry said 274 Palestinians were killed and around 700 were wounded. The ministry does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its tallies, but said the dead included 64 children and 57 women.
274-64 minors = 210 adults. If 57 are women, 153 are adult men. That is 55%, when only 25% of the Gaza population are adult men. There is no reason to assume civilian men are more likely to get killed than civilian women. 153-57 = 96. So 96, give or take, are most likely adult combatants. Say at least 90. And note that "children" really means minors, everyone under 18. But Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups use 15-17 year old fighters all the time. I would very much like to see the age breakdown, as I strongly suspect that 15-17 year olds are grossly overrepresented, but if we say that among 64 minors there were at least 10 combatants, that puts us at no less than 100 dead fighters, and probably more. Not too bad considering that Hamas forced IDF to conduct this operation in the middle of a very densely populated neighborhood. Unironic chef's kiss. I doubt US military would have done much better. And again, this is assuming that the Hamas health ministry numbers are accurate, which they may not be.
 
It disturbs me that BBC leads with that Israel made an airstrike on a crowded refugee camp. Why don’t they lead with condemning Hammas for holding the hostages in refugee camps, putting Palestinian civilians in harms way?

I find the current western antisemitism disturbing.

 
Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn’t been enough what kind of pressure do you suppose would?

That's because IDF has to move slowly to minimise Palestinian civilian casualties. Hammas is making it as hard as possible for them.

I think the best outcome for everyone is if Israel just keep going until they are done. Hammas is also bad for the Palestinians
So, more civilian casualties may be the best way to bring more pressure on Hamas to release the hostages?
It's an inevitable outcome of Hammas' tactics. The important thing to do is for the international community to stop blaming Israel for this. Hammas are the ones who are guilty.

The Palestinians, since PLO, have been so good at playing western media. Its so sad it keeps working. And it's primarily the Palestinian people who are suffering. We need to stop incentivising Hammas to use these tactics. Or it'll just keep going
 
1. Israel has input into the US resolution put before UN SC. Israel has US strike part of it and modify another. Israel then says it is acceptable.

2. UN SC votes on it and approves it.
The UN Security Council adopted a resolution on Monday calling on Hamas to accept a hostage and ceasefire deal.
...
The resolution detailed the three phases of the hostage deal proposal and stressed that the ceasefire would continue as long as negotiations on phase two of the deal are ongoing.
...
It also stresses the commitment of the UN Security Council to a two-state solution and says the Gaza Strip and the West Bank must be united under the Palestinian Authority.
...

3. Hamas accepts plan that includes ceasefire and hostage negotiation release:
The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, its ally the Islamic Jihad group and the rival Palestinian Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas’s welcomed a U.N. Security Council resolution backing a proposal for a ceasefire in Gaza.
In its statement, Hamas said it was ready to cooperate with mediators over implementing the principles of the plan.

4. Contradiction?
Israel has vowed to persist with its military operation in Gaza, saying it won’t engage in “meaningless” negotiations with Hamas, shortly after the United Nations Security Council overwhelmingly approved a US-backed ceasefire plan intended to bring an end to the eight-month war.

Israel’s representative to the UN, Reut Shapir Ben-Naftaly, emphasized at a UNSC meeting Monday that her country wants to “ensure that Gaza doesn’t pose a threat to Israel in the future.”

The senior diplomat said the war would not end until all hostages were returned and Hamas’ capabilities were “dismantled,” accusing the Palestinian militant group of using “endless negotiations… as a means to stall for time.”

In my interpretation, the statement by Israel's representative is not incompatible with the UN resolution. A war can proceed later on after a ceasefire if the ceasefire either happens or fails and the goals of dismantling Hamas and getting all hostages can be done with negotiation, or at least mostly be accomplished by these means.
 
Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn’t been enough what kind of pressure do you suppose would?

That's because IDF has to move slowly to minimise Palestinian civilian casualties. Hammas is making it as hard as possible for them.

I think the best outcome for everyone is if Israel just keep going until they are done. Hammas is also bad for the Palestinians
Everyone? Even the dead children their surviving relatives?
 
It disturbs me that BBC leads with that Israel made an airstrike on a crowded refugee camp. Why don’t they lead with condemning Hammas for holding the hostages in refugee camps, putting Palestinian civilians in harms way?

I find the current western antisemitism disturbing.

. I see, A report of a successful IDF action is an example of antisemitism because it didn’t lead with a blistering editorial condemning Hamas.
 
It disturbs me that BBC leads with that Israel made an airstrike on a crowded refugee camp. Why don’t they lead with condemning Hammas for holding the hostages in refugee camps, putting Palestinian civilians in harms way?

I find the current western antisemitism disturbing.

. I see, A report of a successful IDF action is an example of antisemitism because it didn’t lead with a blistering editorial condemning Hamas.
Yes. Hammas keeping hostages inprisoned in refugee camps.

Do think that's an acceptable behaviour? Combatants should make an effort to keep civilians out of harms way. Its the side using civilians as human shields that should be condemned
 
So, more civilian casualties may be the best way to bring more pressure on Hamas to release the hostages?
No, more Hamas (and other allied terror fighters) casualties would put more pressure.



Sure. But I was addressing DrZoidberg’s statement that the US and UN should put more pressure on Hamas to release the hostages. And I was wondering what kind of pressure the US and UN could put that would be more effective than the attacks by Israel.
 
"MEMBERS
Between 20,000 and 25,000"
This war has shown that to be a gross underestimate. More realistic pre-war strength in Gaza would be ~40k fighters for Hamas and ~20k for allied terror groups like Islamic Jihad. Add to that the ~100k Hezbollah fighters (with an arsenal of rockets in the 1000s) attacking Israel from Lebanon. All of them funded, armed and directed from Tehran.
There are estimated to be 360,000 Russian troops in Ukraine.
Yes, but Ukraine has 3.5x the population and almost 30x the land mass of Israel. Again, challenges are different, but they both need US help.
Have you actually seen a map of Israel because you speak as if you haven't?
Of course I have. What is your point?
The rest of your post is just ridiculous. Hamas has small arms and home made dumb rockets.
More than a decade ago that was mostly true. Now they have more advanced rocketry that can even reach Tel Aviv. Now, all of them are dumb, but that is not a drawback for them, as they seek to terrorize the civilian population. For that purpose aiming them in the general direction of Israeli cities is quite sufficient. And if they fall short and kill Gazans instead, they just blame Israel and the world media just laps it up uncritically.
hamas-rocket-arsenal-graphic.jpg

Russia has tanks, artillery, radar stations, fighter jets, attack helicopters, long range guided missiles. You should be ashamed for posting that idiotic blather.
What is idiotic is to dismiss the danger posed by Hamas, Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies. Just because things are different in Ukraine, does not mean Israel does not require assistance.
While that's a lot of differant types of rockets, what would be better would be the numbers held by Hamas. And notice the ones on the right are domestically produced. As I said, "Hamas has small arms and home made dumb rockets."

The idea that Israel isn't large enough for the IDF to retreat and regroup from aggression by Hamas is ridiculous to the extreme. It's ridiculous to say that it would even be needed.
 
It disturbs me that BBC leads with that Israel made an airstrike on a crowded refugee camp. Why don’t they lead with condemning Hammas for holding the hostages in refugee camps, putting Palestinian civilians in harms way?
Because that is generally accepted as a "No fucking kidding" position. My question for you is why you are justifying bombing areas where you say hostages are being held. That seems dangerously counterproductive.
 
It disturbs me that BBC leads with that Israel made an airstrike on a crowded refugee camp. Why don’t they lead with condemning Hammas for holding the hostages in refugee camps, putting Palestinian civilians in harms way?
Because that is generally accepted as a "No fucking kidding" position. My question for you is why you are justifying bombing areas where you say hostages are being held. That seems dangerously counterproductive.

That's not what happened. There was a counter attack where Hammas militant was firing at the Israeli soldiers and literally using the Palestinian civilians as human shields. The IDF soldiers were pinned down and without an airstrike they'd all be dead

If I have understood it correctly

This was a high risk operation by special forces. Two groups went in. This group fucked up somehow and got trapped. The other group managed to get extracted without a mess

Israels position seems to be to extract the hostages dead or alive. Because they refuse to negotiate with terrorists. Which is fair imho
 
Look at the region.

Lebanon is occupied by a large Iran funded militia and can f do nothing about it.

The Syrian civil war.

Iran and Saudi Arabia out to cut each other's throats.

Saudi Arabia with weapons supplied by us clobbered Sudan, now a wasteland.

Ethiopia.

Yemen.

After toppling Husein Iran now has influence in Iraq, and we are playing endless wack-a-mole with terrorists

Israel is intent on restoring what it thinks are territorial boundaries of a 2000 year old Israel.

Gaza has been bombed back into the stone age.

It may be culturally insensitive, the region is a shit hole of religious fanaticism, nationalism, and centuries old ethnic, racuil, and religious grudges.

The idea that we or anyone in the west will bring any lasting peace is a pipe dream ad political propaganda. In the past Europeans word out agreements that in end nobody lived up to regrading Israel and Palestine. Camp David Accords, Oslo Accords. All came and went.

Israeli leader Rabin was assassinated for his peace initiatives by and Israeli nationalist. There is evidence Netanyahu may have known of the plot and did nothing.

Conclusions? Nobody on any side in the region wants peace. Our firemen policy proclamations are getting pathetic.
 
Do think that's an acceptable behaviour?
Please. Just stop with the straw men. No one thinks taking hostages is acceptable behavior.

The people on this forum condemning Israel obviously thinks taking hostages is OK. You can't have it both ways
That's just stupid black and white thinking.
IMO it's worse than that.

It's an attempt to force people to either give Israel a free pass to commit atrocities or to give Hamas a free pass to commit them. It's an excluded middle fallacy being employed as a means of defending the committing of atrocities by attacking the character of people who object to them.
 
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