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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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This is pertinent to our current discussions: Recognizing Islamophobia, Anti-Palestinian Racism, and Antisemitism

The middle section, How Islamophobia Is Linked to Criticism of Israel as Antisemitism, describes something that happens every time Israel gets mentioned around here. Any criticism of Israeli policies or specific Israeli politicians, no matter how well founded or well documented, is dismissed, glossed over, ignored, or met with Ad Hominems, Tu Quoque fallacies, shifting goalposts, and blatant attempts to shut down conversations.

The final paragraph is a pretty good reflection of my own thoughts:
Defenders of human rights must ground their arguments in law, fundamental legal principles, and verifiable facts so that each person, regardless of race, religion, gender, ethnic identity, or national origin, is treated with the same human dignity, rights, and privileges, to which we all are entitled. These issues must be less about power and control; they must be about rule of law and justice.

IMO, the rightness or wrongness of act does not depend on who is doing it to whom; it is inherent in the act itself. Likewise, the human rights of individuals does not depend on their community or their culture; human rights are the inalienable rights of all human beings.
The long running Israeli propaganda war was successful. The TV ads have been running for decades, an internationak 'association of Jews and Christians'. Sorrowful pictures of alleged Holocaust survivors supposedly starving.

Conservative Christians feel connected to Israel, aka 'the holy land'. Israelis are innocent victims and all Palestinians are blood thirsty terrorists.

Our mainstream media have always used the word terrorist regarding Palestinians.

From BBC reopening in Israel Palestinians have been dehumanized culturally.
 
And Hamas slipped up again. More numbers showing the truth:


article said:
"We have recorded 4,500 amputation cases by the end of 2024, as a result of the continuous Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza," Zaher al-Wahidi, the head of the Health Information Unit at the ministry, confirmed in a statement on Friday.

Al-Wahidi highlighted that approximately 800 of the amputees were children, representing 18% of the cases, while 540 were women, accounting for 12%.

Once again, numbers that only make sense if most of the cases are combatants.
I agree that the numbers show truth. Your handwaved analysis does not. You need to present a cogent analysis for your statement to make sense.
 

People would prefer to believe the propaganda rather than accept that it's a situation with only horrible answers. That's blasphemy to the left, there must be a better answer and it's the fault of the side with the power if they fail to find it. It's existence is a matter of faith.
Ignoring the epic irony of that observation, there is a wide range of "horrible" answers when one remembers that how "horrible" is in the eye of the beholder.
 
And Hamas slipped up again. More numbers showing the truth:


article said:
"We have recorded 4,500 amputation cases by the end of 2024, as a result of the continuous Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza," Zaher al-Wahidi, the head of the Health Information Unit at the ministry, confirmed in a statement on Friday.

Al-Wahidi highlighted that approximately 800 of the amputees were children, representing 18% of the cases, while 540 were women, accounting for 12%.

Once again, numbers that only make sense if most of the cases are combatants.
So... the number of Gazan children and woman that lost limbs is greater than those massacred on October 7th.... and this is a show of restraint?

I don't envy the IDF and how hard it must be to target an enemy that hides behind civilians. And clearly, Israel hasn't been laying waste to the Gazan population in general. But your stats above aren't all that great.
 
A retired Israeli general stated the obvious.

There is nothing left in Gaza. No jobs, no infrastructure, no food. Young people have no option other than joining Hamas. Hamas is already rebuilding and the hatred is more intense.
The LPs and the like are completely underappreciating this. And it is the greatest problem facing Israel. Gaza is in ruins. There is no one to rebuild it and nothing to rebuild it with. They are refugees in their own territory.
Years back I heard a past Israeli leader say if Israeli had treated Palestinians differently fro the start the conflict could have been avoided.
Some people can't let go of the anger. Netanyahu helped move the winds that saw an Israeli leader be assassinated. And Iran and the likes are instigating this strife. No one with any real sense of control wants peace, and the Gazans are going to be so battered, their moral compass is going to be trashed. That puts Israel is in grave danger. When the opposition becomes so battered, they are in danger of becoming as dehumanized as the Netanyahus out there say they are. And people that stop caring are brutally dangerous and easy to manipulate.

A number of people allegedly supporting Israel here are supporting the actions and negligence that is putting Israel in terrible danger.
 
And Hamas slipped up again. More numbers showing the truth:


article said:
"We have recorded 4,500 amputation cases by the end of 2024, as a result of the continuous Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza," Zaher al-Wahidi, the head of the Health Information Unit at the ministry, confirmed in a statement on Friday.

Al-Wahidi highlighted that approximately 800 of the amputees were children, representing 18% of the cases, while 540 were women, accounting for 12%.

Once again, numbers that only make sense if most of the cases are combatants.
So... the number of Gazan children and woman that lost limbs is greater than those massacred on October 7th.... and this is a show of restraint?
Of course it is restraint. It could have been worse because it is not full fledged genocide.
 
An estimated 150,000+ Gazans have
This war produced about a 20:1 casualty ratio. Iran won't mind that and would be happy to do it again.

Nitpick: The 25:1 ratio in deaths due to traumatic injury (closer to 30:1 when Israeli killings in West Bank and Syria are included) tells only part of the story. An estimated 150,000+ Gazans have died INDIRECTLY from the current War, e.g. due to lack of medicine or food. IOW the war has killed 8% of the population of Gaza.

I hope you "need a cite" for the 150,000+ figure. It will demonstrate your utter ignorance about this inhumane war.
I'm not going to ask for the 150,000 because Hamas is only claiming about a quarter of that and I very much doubt there is any substantial undercount.
The 150,l00 is a based on the concept of excess deaths, not a body count. Excess deaths are are typically defined as the difference between the observed numbers of deaths in specific time periods and expected numbers of deaths in the same time periods. It is a statistical estimate.
The problem here is that we have "excess" deaths around 3x the total deaths. Had Israel not invaded were 100,000 Palestinians going to come back from the dead?
If Israel had not invaded there'd be no excess deaths by definition.
How much stock one takes in such estimates is up to the individual. But their underlying point in this context is that deaths attributable to conflict exceed the body count from bullets and bombs.
Yeah, I understand. Reality wasn't bad enough for them so they had to pull some numbers out of their asses.
Hard to argue with the emperor of pulling stuff out of their ass.
 
I agree that the numbers show truth. Your handwaved analysis does not. You need to present a cogent analysis for your statement to make sense.
The analysis is pretty straightforward.
18% were "children" and 12% were women. That leaves 70% adult men.
Note that "children" just means <18, and many Gazan combatants are under 18.
Also, in Gaza ~50% of Gaza are <18. And about half of the rest are men, while the other half are women.
That means that women and minors are heavily underrepresented and that adult men are heavily overrepresented.
The two tailed χ2 has a p-value <0.0001.
 
I agree that the numbers show truth. Your handwaved analysis does not. You need to present a cogent analysis for your statement to make sense.
The analysis is pretty straightforward.
18% were "children" and 12% were women. That leaves 70% adult men.
Note that "children" just means <18, and many Gazan combatants are under 18.
Also, in Gaza ~50% of Gaza are <18. And about half of the rest are men, while the other half are women.
That means that women and minors are heavily underrepresented and that adult men are heavily overrepresented.
The two tailed χ2 has a p-value <0.0001.
What is your null hypothesis?

More importantly, this justifies the observation that "Once again, numbers that only make sense if most of the cases are combatants." because an injured Gazan is most likely a combatant? Not only does that seem like circular reasoning to me, but it implicitly takes for granted that amputations of non-combatants is okay as long as combatants are getting injured.
 
The Two State solution can work IF both States are economically viable and have the usual powers of State such as control of their borders, resource development, immigration, etc.
But for that Palestinians must give up on the idea of destroying Israel.
Gaza disengagement in 2005 was a dress rehearsal for a Palestinian state. The settlers and soldiers withdrew. Instead of then living alongside Israel, Gazans increased their rocket attacks on Israel. Dress rehearsal failed - they are not ready for a state of their own.
That is unacceptable to both the Zionist factions Netanyahu leads and Islamist factions like PFLP,
PFLP is not an "Islamist faction". They are Marxist-Leninist. About the only thing they agree with the Islamists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) on is that they all want to see Israel destroyed. That's why groups like PFLP and DFLP (splitters!) took part in the 10/7 atrocities.
and from your posting history I surmise you reject it, too.
I can't speak for Loren, but I support a two state solution in principle. I do not think the Palestinians are ready to govern themselves and live side-by-side with Israel.
That doesn't mean the Two State solution is as bad as the current situation, with some people empowered and others oppressed according to their religion and ethnicity, with never ending injustice and bloodshed.
The two-state solution is a process, not a thing that can just be decreed.
The closest we came to accomplishing it was the 2000 Camp David Summit, but then Arafat rejected the proposal on the table, the 2nd Intifada was unleashed and Hamas took over Gaza. Now we are far further from the two states than we were in 2000.
 
To get an idea of the scale just look at a map of the region. Gaza is a small area.



The bombing of the Gaza Strip is an ongoing aerial bombardment campaign on the Gaza Strip by the Israeli Air Force during the Israel–Hamas war. During the bombing, Israeli airstrikes killed thousands of civilians and militants, and damaged or destroyed Palestinian schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, and other civilian infrastructure including refugee camps.[2][3]

By October 2024, Israel said it bombed 40,000 locations[4] in the Gaza Strip (which is 360 km2). By one estimate, the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza is more than 70,000 tonnes,[5] surpassing the bomb tonnage dropped on Dresden, Hamburg, and London, combined, in World War II.[6] Satellite imagery showed 62% of all buildings were damaged or destroyed,[7] which also meets or exceeds the scale of destruction in Cologne, Dresden and Hamburg during World War II.[2] The death toll from all Israeli attacks – both bombing and non-bombing – exceeds 45,000. Of this total, AOAV estimates that more than 25,000 civilians (and an unknown number of combatants) were killed by explosive weapons in the deadliest 3,921 bombings.[1]

Israel has faced accusations of war crimes due to the large number of civilian casualties and the large percentage of civilian infrastructure destroyed.[8] Meanwhile, Israel stated that it utilized a wide-scale evacuation notification system,[a] and claimed that its targets were used by Hamas. The United Nations reports that 86% of the Gaza Strip is under Israeli evacuation orders.[10] Satellite data analysis indicates that 80% of the buildings in northern Gaza have been damaged or destroyed.[11] As of January 2024, researchers at Oregon State University and the City University of New York estimated that as much as 50–62% of all buildings in the Gaza Strip had been damaged or destroyed.[12][7][c]


I dd reading and watched bios of Netanyahu. He strongly opposed making peace with Arabs. There is evidence he knew of the plot to assassinate Rabin and did nothing. He is a Jewish version of our conservative Christian biblical literalists.

The last thing Netanyahu and conservatives want is an independent internationally recognized Palestinian state. It would freeze borders and end colonization. It would give Palestinians standing in international courts.

That being said the question is if Palestinians would be able to govern themselves.

The region is for lack of better words a shit hole. Probably not. Hamas and Fatah fought a civil war over control. At one point Jordan annexed the West Bank leading to a civil war for control of Jordan. I believe that is where Yassar Arafat made his entrance.

The Lebanese Civil War had nothing to do with Israel but it got drawn in.

Syria. Saudis vs Iranians. Yemen. Iraq, we handed the country to the people and they turned on each other.

The idea that there will be liberal democracy in the region and peace is pure fantasy. Nobody wants a peace that requires compromise, certainly not Israel.
 
The Two State solution can work IF both States are economically viable and have the usual powers of State such as control of their borders, resource development, immigration, etc.
But for that Palestinians must give up on the idea of destroying Israel.
Gaza disengagement in 2005 was a dress rehearsal for a Palestinian state. The settlers and soldiers withdrew. Instead of then living alongside Israel, Gazans increased their rocket attacks on Israel. Dress rehearsal failed - they are not ready for a state of their own.
The Two State solution can work IF both States are economically viable and have the usual powers of State such as control of their borders, resource development, immigration, etc.

Gaza after the settlers returned to the Israel side of the barrier wasn't economically viable because Israel maintained an economic stranglehold through control of the borders, airspace, coastal waters, etc. The Gazans couldn't get their produce or their products to market, or import needed goods, or develop their natural gas deposits, etc., without Israel's permission, and without it being beneficial to Israelis. They couldn't keep their workers employed or pay for upkeep or improvements to their infrastructure. Their economy stagnated and it was all downhill from there.

You know Israel kept the Gazans isolated and dependent, and you have always approved of it. Why are you pretending the Gazans could have struck deals with British Petroleum or Sysco Corporation without first getting permission from Israel? Why are you pretending the Dutch didn't have to reach a deal with Israel to allow the Gazans to export flowers, that they couldn't just get the flowers without involving Israel at all? It was flowers going out of Gaza, ffs. Why did it have to involve Israel at all?

If Israelis want peace with the Palestinians they have to allow the Palestinians to prosper. Peace isn't possible while Israelis are keeping Palestinians impoverished and dependent.

That is unacceptable to both the Zionist factions Netanyahu leads and Islamist factions like PFLP,
PFLP is not an "Islamist faction". They are Marxist-Leninist. About the only thing they agree with the Islamists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) on is that they all want to see Israel destroyed. That's why groups like PFLP and DFLP (splitters!) took part in the 10/7 atrocities.

You are correct. I meant to cite Islamic Jihad, as I did earlier in the thread and by the time I realized I had typed the wrong acronym it was too late to fix my error.
and from your posting history I surmise you reject it, too.
I can't speak for Loren, but I support a two state solution in principle. I do not think the Palestinians are ready to govern themselves and live side-by-side with Israel.
That doesn't mean the Two State solution is as bad as the current situation, with some people empowered and others oppressed according to their religion and ethnicity, with never ending injustice and bloodshed.
The two-state solution is a process, not a thing that can just be decreed.
The closest we came to accomplishing it was the 2000 Camp David Summit, but then Arafat rejected the proposal on the table, the 2nd Intifada was unleashed and Hamas took over Gaza. Now we are far further from the two states than we were in 2000.
The closest was the Oslo Accords. The camp David Summit was an attempt by the Israelis to walk away from that agreement after Rabin was assassinated and to get a different deal that did not promise the same end result.

If you think there was an actual proposal on the table, please post a summary or document that outlines it. IIRC, Ehud Barak didn't offer anything in writing, it was all word of mouth 'trust me' vagueness. There is no way of knowing what exactly was on offer, only that it wasn't what had been agreed to when the Oslo Accords were signed.
 
I think it is all moot at this point.

Gaza has been destroyed, an economic comeback is not likely. There has never been a worng government in Gaza or tne WEerst Bank. Hmas and Ftah woud not accpt an oppsng majority givernmt.

Israel has ignored agreements. Jerusalem was supposed to be an open city.


Elections for the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) were held in Palestinian Autonomous areas from 1994 until their transition into the State of Palestine in 2013. Elections were scheduled to be held in 2009,[1] but was postponed because of the Fatah–Hamas conflict. President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to stay on until the next election,[2] but he was recognized as president only in the West Bank and not by Hamas in Gaza. The Palestinian National Authority has held several elections in the Palestinian territories, including elections for president, the legislature and local councils. The PNA has a multi-party system, with numerous parties. In this system, Fatah is the dominant party.

The first legislative and presidential elections were held in 1996; the first local elections in January–May 2005. Previous (failed) Legislative Council elections were held in 1923 under the British Mandate, and previous municipal elections were held in 1972 and 1976, organized by the Israeli government.[3]

The Palestinian Legislative Council passed a law in June 2005 (signed by Abbas on 13 August 2005), to increase the number of members from 88 to 132, with half to be elected using proportional representation and half by plurality-at-large voting in traditional constituencies.[4] The January 2005 presidential election was won by Abbas of Fatah, while the January 2006 legislative election was won by Hamas. In 2007, a presidential decree abolished the constituency seats with all seats to be elected from a national list, and prohibited parties which did not acknowledge the Palestine Liberation Organization's right to represent the Palestinian people (specifically Hamas) from contesting the election.[5] An opinion poll suggested that a majority of Palestinians supported the change, while Hamas called it illegal.[6]

Following the Fatah–Hamas conflict that started in 2006, Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip without elections. Gazan Prime Minister Haniyye announced in September 2012 the formation of a second Hamas government, also without elections.
 
...like people sheltering from bombs.
There are no civilian bomb shelters in Gaza.
Top Hamas official declares group is not responsible for defending Gazan civilians
Or, put another way:
BtLtpwcCUAAhZ_S.jpg:large
 
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