Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Ziprhead

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

Not even close. The problem is that the Palestinians demand to live as an ethnic aristocracy over Jews. Just listen to what their organisations are saying.

Like it or not, Israel is a multicultural country. The Palestinians just need to accept that they are the equals of Jews. They have no reason to accept the Palestinians as their overlord

There are 2 million Israeli Palestinians living in Israel with full citizenships. They have more rights than the Jewish Israelis. They're forcefully protected by the state. As is the 1 million Christians living in Israel.

Becoming an Israeli citizen comes with caveats. You need to be for and support the existance of Israel. That's the rub. That's why so few Palestinians want to become Isreali citizens. And pretty basic requirements for any citizen of any country IMHO.

But perhaps you didn't know that?

Already addressed which you ignored. You even quoted it but didn't respond.

Anyway. I think we're done talking. I think you're so full of hatred for Jews it is blinding your ability to correctly analyse what is actually happening.

Too bad

 

[TomC]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

Israel doesn't, some Israelis have.

This is the trouble of treating Israel and Gaza like monoliths. Israel doesn't need to formally occupy Palestinian territory... Israelis can and have. IDF doesn't need to kill occasional Palestinians. Israelis can and have.

Israel feels a bit like the US Colonies and the western frontier. England wasn't telling the Colonists to incur on French territory... but they did anyway. The pointed difference being, some in Israeli government would support the annexation of additional territory. A reminder that the Israeli Government itself is far from a monolith on what policy should or shouldn't be. Much like the people in Israel are not one mind on what would be the appropriate response on Gaza.

I'm one of the few people who refuses to lie to themselves about their intimate knowledge of life in Palestine, particularly the bordering territories. What I am satisfied in knowledge is there is a great deal of poverty i Gaza. And that the security situation in bordering areas is complicated with violence coming from both sides, I dare not guess magnitudes. The Gazans are suffering. That is unquestionable. So I refuse to dehumanize them and broad brush them into categories.

I suppose the most eye raking part of the conversation is that no one thinks the IDF actions have prevented another attack. Which does beg one to ask ,"Dude, WTF then?!" Most seem to agree that Iran is the keystone. Yet, almost nothing is being considered about Iran and how to impact Iran in order to stop this, or at least drag it down to petty crimes.

If the goal is Israel security, it'd likely be best to enact policies that aim to improving their security, which effectively means dealing with the Iran issue, instead of a pissing contest on terms like "genocide". whether Hamas is interchangeable with Gaza, and accusations of anti-Semitism which insult the Jewish who have been victims of actual anti-Semiitsm.

 

[laughing dog]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

When Israeli settlers steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors while the IDF watches, or nothing is done to hold them accountable, then Israel is tacitly accountable, if not formally accounatable.

 

[DrZoidberg]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

Israel doesn't, some Israelis have.

This is the trouble of treating Israel and Gaza like monoliths. Israel doesn't need to formally occupy Palestinian territory... Israelis can and have. IDF doesn't need to kill occasional Palestinians. Israelis can and have.

Israel feels a bit like the US Colonies and the western frontier. England wasn't telling the Colonists to incur on French territory... but they did anyway. The pointed difference being, some in Israeli government would support the annexation of additional territory. A reminder that the Israeli Government itself is far from a monolith on what policy should or shouldn't be. Much like the people in Israel are not one mind on what would be the appropriate response on Gaza.

I'm one of the few people who refuses to lie to themselves about their intimate knowledge of life in Palestine, particularly the bordering territories. What I am satisfied in knowledge is there is a great deal of poverty i Gaza. And that the security situation in bordering areas is complicated with violence coming from both sides, I dare not guess magnitudes. The Gazans are suffering. That is unquestionable. So I refuse to dehumanize them and broad brush them into categories.

I suppose the most eye raking part of the conversation is that no one thinks the IDF actions have prevented another attack. Which does beg one to ask ,"Dude, WTF then?!" Most seem to agree that Iran is the keystone. Yet, almost nothing is being considered about Iran and how to impact Iran in order to stop this, or at least drag it down to petty crimes.

If the goal is Israel security, it'd likely be best to enact policies that aim to improving their security, which effectively means dealing with the Iran issue, instead of a pissing contest on terms like "genocide". whether Hamas is interchangeable with Gaza, and accusations of anti-Semitism which insult the Jewish who have been victims of actual anti-Semiitsm.

Excellent questions. Aren't we already doing everything we can to contain Iran (short of invading it)? Iran is also politicaly unstable. The Iranian people are so fed up of the regime it can topple any day now. It might take years. But that place is a powder keg. I think this makes us reluctant to push to hard. The last thing we want is the Iranian people rally around the Ayatollah for patriotic reasons.

 

[DrZoidberg]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

When Israeli settlers steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors while the IDF watches, or nothing is done to hold them accountable, then Israel is tacitly accountable, if not formally accounatable.

The IDF doesn't get involved in what is a police matter. Its a question if jurisdiction. The Israeli settlers are evil cunts abusing Israeli law to harass Palestinians. If the IDF are in position to protect Israelis, even when the Israeli is an evil cunt, then they will. Its an unfortunate situation, and something the Netanyahu government has neglected to address. The sooner Netanyahu is out the better

We don't want soldiers to behave as court, jury and executioner. We want soldiers on a short leash. But if we do, this happens. Its a legal matter

 

[laughing dog]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

When Israeli settlers steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors while the IDF watches, or nothing is done to hold them accountable, then Israel is tacitly accountable, if not formally accounatable.

The IDF doesn't get involved in what is a police matter. Its a question if jurisdiction. The Israeli settlers are evil cunts abusing Israeli law to harass Palestinians. If the IDF are in position to protect Israelis, even when the Israeli is an evil cunt, then they will. Its an unfortunate situation, and something the Netanyahu government has neglected to address. The sooner Netanyahu is out the better

We don't want soldiers to behave as court, jury and executioner. We want soldiers on a short leash. But if we do, this happens. Its a legal matter

Thank you for admitting the gov't of Israel is complicit.

BTW, there is nothing stopping the IDF's orders to prevent settlers from breaking the law except the Israeli gov't.

 

[ZiprHead]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

I suggest you go back a page and read the link I poisted that Dr Z quoted.

 

[ZiprHead]

It's not about retaliation. It's about reducing their ability to do it again. Because they certainly are going to.

A goal which has not been accomplished by any objective metric.

Keyword: "reducing". It certainly has been reduced.

I would agree with that.

 

[ZiprHead]

The problem is that while you "oppose" genocide by both sides you refuse to recognize that your position actually enables genocide.

HAMAS does not have the capability of committing genocide against the Israely people. Please stop.

Thank you for saying "again"--you're conceding their intent in 10/7 was genocidal.

No, I am not. What would give you that idea.

And just because they don't have the capability now doesn't mean they won't in the future.

Finally you got one right.

Yes, HAMAS would love to genocide Israelis. Lots of Israelis would love to genocide Gazan Palestinians. I would love a pony that farts pepperoni pizzas.

Iran is going to continue to fund and resupply them, there will be another attack. The only question is how long before it happens.

So how far must Israel need to go to remove this maybe someday capability? Are you calling for Israel to go to war with Iran?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

Israel doesn't, some Israelis have.

This is the trouble of treating Israel and Gaza like monoliths. Israel doesn't need to formally occupy Palestinian territory... Israelis can and have. IDF doesn't need to kill occasional Palestinians. Israelis can and have.

Israel feels a bit like the US Colonies and the western frontier. England wasn't telling the Colonists to incur on French territory... but they did anyway. The pointed difference being, some in Israeli government would support the annexation of additional territory. A reminder that the Israeli Government itself is far from a monolith on what policy should or shouldn't be. Much like the people in Israel are not one mind on what would be the appropriate response on Gaza.

I'm one of the few people who refuses to lie to themselves about their intimate knowledge of life in Palestine, particularly the bordering territories. What I am satisfied in knowledge is there is a great deal of poverty i Gaza. And that the security situation in bordering areas is complicated with violence coming from both sides, I dare not guess magnitudes. The Gazans are suffering. That is unquestionable. So I refuse to dehumanize them and broad brush them into categories.

I suppose the most eye raking part of the conversation is that no one thinks the IDF actions have prevented another attack. Which does beg one to ask ,"Dude, WTF then?!" Most seem to agree that Iran is the keystone. Yet, almost nothing is being considered about Iran and how to impact Iran in order to stop this, or at least drag it down to petty crimes.

If the goal is Israel security, it'd likely be best to enact policies that aim to improving their security, which effectively means dealing with the Iran issue, instead of a pissing contest on terms like "genocide". whether Hamas is interchangeable with Gaza, and accusations of anti-Semitism which insult the Jewish who have been victims of actual anti-Semiitsm.

Excellent questions. Aren't we already doing everything we can to contain Iran (short of invading it)?

According to the aftermath of October 7th, what we are doing isn't working. When something isn't working, need to change tactics. Obama attempted the camel nose maneuver... and Trump fucked it up. Much like when he leaked sensitive intel to Russia about Israel.

Iran is also politicaly unstable. The Iranian people are so fed up of the regime it can topple any day now. It might take years. But that place is a powder keg. I think this makes us reluctant to push to hard.

That's why we push hard... we just aren't obvious about it. Using diplomatic muscle strategically.

The last thing we want is the Iranian people rally around the Ayatollah for patriotic reasons.

Yeah, that would be bad.

 

[ZiprHead]

Anyway. I think we're done talking. I think you're so full of hatred for Jews Gazans it is blinding your ability to correctly analyse what is actually happening.

Right back atcha there, chief.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Well, this whole argument will be moot soon now that Trump is going to solve the Gaza problem.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

He's going to put up Trump Towers there. Yay.

 

[ZiprHead]

He's going to put up Trump Towers there. Yay.

And we're going to pay for it.

 

[robnisch]

He's going to put up Trump Towers there. Yay.

And cassinos?
Riviera of the Middle East!

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/04/trump-says-us-will-own-and-develop-gaza-strip.html

Trump says U.S. will ‘take over’ Gaza to develop it, and Palestinians should leave​

President Donald Trump on Tuesday evening said the United States “will take over the Gaza Strip,” and “we’ll own it.”

Trump said that all Palestinians currently living in Gaza — around 2 million people — should leave and be placed in other countries in the Middle East, among them Jordan and Egypt, while the U.S. develops the territory.

...

The former New York real estate developer later suggested that Gaza eventually could be “the Riviera of the Middle East,” where “the world’s people” could make their homes.

“I do see a long-term ownership position,” Trump said when asked if he envisioned a permanent U.S. occupation of Gaza.

...

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

 

[DrZoidberg]

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

Honestly, zipr, I don't understand how you could ignore that and mischaracterize it so thoroughly.
Israel doesn't steal, abuse, or kill their neighbors. Defending themselves against Muslim violence is not the same thing.
Tom

Israel doesn't, some Israelis have.

This is the trouble of treating Israel and Gaza like monoliths. Israel doesn't need to formally occupy Palestinian territory... Israelis can and have. IDF doesn't need to kill occasional Palestinians. Israelis can and have.

Israel feels a bit like the US Colonies and the western frontier. England wasn't telling the Colonists to incur on French territory... but they did anyway. The pointed difference being, some in Israeli government would support the annexation of additional territory. A reminder that the Israeli Government itself is far from a monolith on what policy should or shouldn't be. Much like the people in Israel are not one mind on what would be the appropriate response on Gaza.

I'm one of the few people who refuses to lie to themselves about their intimate knowledge of life in Palestine, particularly the bordering territories. What I am satisfied in knowledge is there is a great deal of poverty i Gaza. And that the security situation in bordering areas is complicated with violence coming from both sides, I dare not guess magnitudes. The Gazans are suffering. That is unquestionable. So I refuse to dehumanize them and broad brush them into categories.

I suppose the most eye raking part of the conversation is that no one thinks the IDF actions have prevented another attack. Which does beg one to ask ,"Dude, WTF then?!" Most seem to agree that Iran is the keystone. Yet, almost nothing is being considered about Iran and how to impact Iran in order to stop this, or at least drag it down to petty crimes.

If the goal is Israel security, it'd likely be best to enact policies that aim to improving their security, which effectively means dealing with the Iran issue, instead of a pissing contest on terms like "genocide". whether Hamas is interchangeable with Gaza, and accusations of anti-Semitism which insult the Jewish who have been victims of actual anti-Semiitsm.

Excellent questions. Aren't we already doing everything we can to contain Iran (short of invading it)?

According to the aftermath of October 7th, what we are doing isn't working. When something isn't working, need to change tactics. Obama attempted the camel nose maneuver... and Trump fucked it up. Much like when he leaked sensitive intel to Russia about Israel.

What are you talking about? It's working great. Hamas has never before been this weak. They're less able than ever to mount attacks against Israel, ie the goal of Israels war. All Hamas' defensive preparations were foiled. Hamas' plan was to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, banking on that Israel wouldn't dare attack. That didn't work out for Hamas

Putin is a similar kind of guy, as Hamas. But for some reason we're not whining about all the needless deaths of Russian soldiers and how mean Ukraine is for defending itself.

I don't think IDF needs to change tactics. Their tactics are working just fine. The people, I think, should change tactics is Hamas. The best possible outcome, IMHO, is if the Palestinian people get sick and tired of the endless wars, take a stand against tribalism and kleptocracy. And start working toward something generating prosperity for them and cooperation with Israel. The Palestinians have the best situation in the Middle-East. They're right next to the most healthy economy in the region. If they just stop this victimhood/suicide bombing nonsense Gaza will quickly prosper.

But I think the world community is partly to blame. We need to dismantle UNRWA and cancel their perpetual refugee status. I think that traps them into living off government aid and handouts. I think that aid money perverts the incentives and creates the kind of unhealthy environment religious and political extremism thrives in. And because the Israel economy is so strong, I don't think it would even take particularly long time. 1995 - 2015 saw unprecedented explosive economic growth in the poorest region of the world (because poor countries embraced free market captialism rather than socialism). What that means is that we have a recipe for success that Gaza can copy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jimmy Carter gets a lot of crap from his Presidency. Like Biden, he inherited a very hard situation, tried to manage. Did some things that have had a massive long-term impact. Especially Egypt and Jordan. I think people take for granted that Egypt and Jordan have effectively been sidelined in all Middle East related shit shows since the early 80s. Of course, it comes at a price, money. And maybe something else as well... a presumption that the US gives at least a couple fucks about the Arabs when it comes to Middle East policy.

People often mistake historical precedent as future fact, but the truth is, with Jordan and Egypt potentially being strong armed by Trump, they may look at their bargain and consider whether it is worth it. Jordan already has a lot of Palestinians. Egypt doesn't want any more Palestinians. If Trump tries to force this, and makes the Trump-esque idea of threatening funding in retaliation of them not accepting Palestinians, do we return to a pre-1980 world, where Jordan and Egypt's position is their own... not America compatible.

Trump presented his plan which would be crime against humanity, at best. At worst, it is a fuse that reunites Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq. and Syria in a manner that is not good for Israel or any interests in Gaza that don't involve the Palestinians. All Trump knows is chaos and bullying. He is bullying our best allies and is on the cusp of bullying our most important allies as far as Israeli security is concerned. (Jordan and Egypt). That shit might work when you have enough lawyers against smaller contractors... or "work" when other nations know how to blow smoke up Trump's ass to make him think he won.

But other nations that don't have to care about the US, that could have China step in with cash and support and a less judgmental view of foreign policy decisions, it would be reckless to poke to much there, especially when they get -50% out of the deal. They don't gain anything, they lose in this deal. They lose money, security, regional face. They looks like organ grinder monkeys dancing away for imperial America. It looks like a late 19th century political cartoon. Why in the world would they allow that?

I'd hold off on selling the Middle East War t-shirts for now, but as things stand, Trump is wading in waters, surrounded by sharks... and he thinks he is a shark, when he is a bucket of chum.