Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Our sources must differ wildly. Approximately 70% of the fatalities in Gaza during the ongoing conflict have been women and children, according to multiple reports from the United Nations and other organizations. What are YOUR sources, Loren?

That is ridiculous. Not even the official Hamas health ministry numbers claim that. I analyzed those upthread, remember?

In any case, ~45% of the dead, according to the official Hamas numbers, have been adult men. ~25% of the population is adult men. Which means that adult men are greatly overrepresented among the dead.
And that does not even take into account that dead of age "0" have been grossly inflated because dead with unknown age have been given "0" in the list.
Here is the graph I made again.


Note the military age male bulge? Note also that this bulge begins well before age 18. That's because Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terror groups recruit minor teenagers. Being under 18 (and thus classified as a "child") does not mean that one was not a combatant.

Yes, you seem to have swallowed Bibi’s line. And hook.

I don't even know whose numbers you swallowed hook, line and sinker, since not even Hamas numbers claim what you are claiming.

 

[Derec]

. Amputations are generally performed on living beings, so it is not clear how it demonstrates anything about who is killed. In fact, if anything, by itself, the fact amputations on males greatly exceeding those on females tends to confirm the observation that more females are killed than males.

That's some insane troll logic right there. There is no reason to assume that the demographic distribution of wounded is the opposite of, rather than being close to, the demographic distribution of the fatalities.
And in fact, even according to Hamas numbers, the fatality ratio of men vs. women >18 is 2.2, i.e. more than twice as many men than women are reported dead.

 

[Derec]

As I write this I have provided the primary source (United Nations) source for the statistic indicating that 70% of the victims of Israel's genocidal campaign have been women and children.

No, you have not. You just keep repeating the "70%" figure like a mantra, but have provided no citation for it.
I, on the other hand, have shown that this is not even backed by official Hamas numbers.

Also, you are ignoring that these stats lump everybody <18 as "children", but that age also includes teenagers who are often involved as combatants.

* Israel is killing mostly women and children and

Let's use more accurate term "women and minors". Note that these two groups comprise ~75% of the population. Even if the Hamas numbers are correct and 55% of the dead are women and minors, that is still disproportionately few compared to how many of them are in the population. And again, many minor teenagers are involved in combat.

* There has been no loss of Israeli civilian lives at the hand of Hamas since their terrorist attach of 10/23

Not true. There have been terrorist attacks from the West Bank since then that had civilian fatalities.

 

[laughing dog]

If it goes to 500,000 dead to ”pay for” what Hamas did in 2023, there will still be no repentance.

It's not about a number "to pay for what Hamas did". Hamas could end all this today by releasing all hostages and dismantling as a terrorist force.

Given Bebe’s long track record of prevarication and his reliance on ethnic cleansing nationalists, why should Hamas believe that?

 

[laughing dog]

. Amputations are generally performed on living beings, so it is not clear how it demonstrates anything about who is killed. In fact, if anything, by itself, the fact amputations on males greatly exceeding those on females tends to confirm the observation that more females are killed than males.

That's some insane troll logic right there. There is no reason to assume that the demographic distribution of wounded is the opposite of, rather than being close to, the demographic distribution of the fatalities.
And in fact, even according to Hamas numbers, the fatality ratio of men vs. women >18 is 2.2, i.e. more than twice as many men than women are reported dead.

There is no reason to make any assumption about the relationship amputations and mortality rates in war, so you can shove your “insane troll logic” up your ass.

 

[Arctish]

Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.

Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom

It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic. But the displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank to make way for even more settlers should end immediately. Obviously it's fueling the conflict and needs to stop.

Will you be first in like for going to Auschwitz? If you think the Jews should go why not you?

You appear to be saying that if displaced Palestinians return slowly and in stages, and no more Palestinians are displaced to make way for settlers, it's the same thing as Jews being sent to Auschwitz. That argument is so ridiculous I'm kinda surprised I have to address it even after more than 20 years of reading similar claims you've made.

Jews don't die when justice prevails. In fact, the opposite happens. Peaceful co-existence might be detrimental to a certain faction's plans to dominate a religious ethno-state but it is beneficial to the people who experience it. As someone who lives in a place where peaceful co-existence is the norm, not the exception, you might have noticed that.

And anyway, your posting history indicates you don't give a fuck when it's Jews moving into settlements in the West Bank where they will be vastly outnumbered by non-Jews, so why the pearl clutching when it's a few thousand non-Jewish refugees returning to their former homes in Israel? Could it be that your argument is nothing but racist fearmongering in defense of preserving the results of ethnic cleansing? It certainly looks that way.

 

[Arctish]

No people just give a damn about human rights, apparently you don't.

Do you mean those of us who support multiethnic democracy?
Or violent Muslim terrorists?

Because it's pretty obvious to me which side you fall on. Rather like a bunch of other people on this forum.
Tom

The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum support multiethnic democracy.

It's just that some here think they can have one in Israel while carefully controlling the mix of religious communities and ethnicities so that Jews will always occupy the most favorable social position, while others realize that as long as non-Jewish Palestinians are discriminated against, it isn't really the multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity it's claimed to be.

You can't build a just and fair society on a foundation of bias and bigotry. Israel can either be the Jewish State that exists for the benefit of Jews alone, or it can be a multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity to all. Or it can be a partner in peace with a Palestinian State (or more than one), as a way to have its cake and eat it, too.

And you can sooth your conscience and say you didn't intend genocide. Your "morality" is based on actions, not outcomes. We are looking at outcomes and consider your disregard for them to be evil.

What action are you looking at? And what outcome? Be specific.

If it's something historical, cite the historians or link to articles. If it's a current event, link to your news sources.

 

[ZiprHead]

Netanyahu faces fury as renewed war deepens Israeli divisions

But for many Israelis, the renewed fighting has stirred feelings of despair – and rage with the government. For Palestinians, it means the end of a brief respite that lasted just two months.

Plus, restarting the war doesn’t align with what many Israelis want, according to recent polling from the Jerusalem-based think tank the Israel Democracy Institute, who said in early March that the vast majority of Israeli supported the ceasefire.

Over 70% of Israelis supported negotiating with Hamas for an end to the fighting and an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, in exchange for the release of the remaining hostages, the Institute said. Notably, a large proportion (61.5%) of voters from Netanyahu’s Likud party supported continuing the second stage of the ceasefire deal, it said.

Now, as Netanyahu digs in his heels with the renewed campaign, many worry about how an already fractured society will fare.

Protesting alongside thousands outside the Knesset, Yuval Yairi, an artist from Jerusalem and former director of an art school, told CNN he believed the fighting had been restarted for political reasons – saying Netanyahu needed his right-wing allies on-side ahead of the March 31 budget vote deadline – and said the war was corrosive of Israel’s democracy.

“I’m very concerned about the possibility of a civil war. This nation is divided. It sometimes seems there’s no way out. People don’t believe in democracy anymore. They don’t believe in the life that we had before everything started. You see the division: religion on one side, secularism on the other. It seems hopeless,” Yairi said.

Elias Shraga, chairman for the Movement for Quality Government in Israel, a legal watchdog, agreed that Netanyahu’s war in Gaza was being waged to keep him in power.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why 70 Percent of Israelis Want Netanyahu to Resign

The Israeli prime minister ignores the views of the majority of his people.

www.theatlantic.com

Israelis want Benjamin Netanyahu to say sorry and go away. A survey released this week by the Israel Democracy Institute found that a staggering 87 percent of Israelis think the prime minister should take responsibility for the events of October 7, and 73 percent want him to resign either now or after the Gaza war. These figures might seem shocking to outsiders, but they are actually old news. Since October 7, the Israeli public has consistently told pollsters that it wants Netanyahu gone—a preference that has held through every twist and turn of the war and has, if anything, intensified over time.

The reason for this is simple: Netanyahu not only presided over the worst security failure in Israel’s history but has actively governed against the will of the country’s majority. He and his allies received just 48.4 percent of the vote in late 2022. Still, the Israeli leader did not seek to unite a polarized population by pivoting to the center. Instead he cobbled together a sectarian coalition with unpopular extremist constituencies: far-right messianic settlers and the ultra-Orthodox. Because the votes of both of these groups are necessary for the government to remain in power, they have been able to extort Netanyahu for ever-expanding giveaways and political gains. The result: On core issue after issue, Netanyahu has been the prime minister for the 30 percent.

 

[laughing dog]

And you can sooth your conscience and say you didn't intend genocide. Your "morality" is based on actions, not outcomes. We are looking at outcomes and consider your disregard for them to be evil.

That explodes every current and future irony meter.

 

[Elixir]

Your primary source isn't. The UN has no ability to measure the deaths and thus can't be a primary source.

If you have a better one, cough it up. They have access to as much data as anyone.

 

[TomC]

Your primary source isn't. The UN has no ability to measure the deaths and thus can't be a primary source.

If you have a better one, cough it up. They have access to as much data as anyone.

The problem is that there's no real sources. It's almost entirely the violent, self serving, liars that run Gaza making claims.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Your primary source isn't. The UN has no ability to measure the deaths and thus can't be a primary source.

If you have a better one, cough it up. They have access to as much data as anyone.

The problem is that there's no real sources. It's almost entirely the violent, self serving, liars that run Gaza making claims.
Tom

The Gazan health ministry is a real source. Distrusting it does not make it less real. I can understanding distrusting any source from that area. Do you happen to have an evidence-driven reason for distrusting the Gazan health ministry's estimates that you would like to share?

 

[Elixir]

Your primary source isn't. The UN has no ability to measure the deaths and thus can't be a primary source.

If you have a better one, cough it up. They have access to as much data as anyone.

The problem is that there's no real sources. It's almost entirely the violent, self serving, liars that run Gaza making claims.
Tom

The Gazan health ministry is a real source. Distrusting it does not make it less real. I can understanding distrusting any source from that area. Do you happen to have an evidence-driven reason for distrusting the Gazan health ministry's estimates that you would like to share?

Just the fact that it comes from a place full of people who need exterminating, renders their stats irrelevant. Only the Israeli ministry of Bibi’s propaganda need be taken seriously.

 

[TomC]

Just the fact that it comes from a place full of people who need exterminating, renders their stats irrelevant. Only the Israeli ministry of Bibi’s propaganda need be taken seriously.

Nope.
It's because the Gazan health ministry is operated by Hamas. Now, in the 20th year of a 4yr term, Hamas has had plenty of time to "eliminate" any such employees that are not sufficiently loyal. Hamas' disregard for truth and human life is horrific. I see no reason to believe differently about their health ministry.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Nope.
It's because the Gazan health ministry is operated by Hamas.

That’s what I said.

 

[Derec]

There is no reason to make any assumption about the relationship amputations and mortality rates in war,

There is no reason to make any assumption that the two would be significantly different. Same injuries - e.g. shrapnel wounds, blast injuries, crush injuries - that are plentiful in this war can cause both amputations and deaths depending on severity and how soon the wounded get help.
Why would you think the two would not just be significantly different, but actually opposite, as you implied in a previous post?

so you can shove your “insane troll logic” up your ass.

Butt stuff is not my jam, but whatever floats your boat, dude.

 

[Derec]

Your primary source isn't. The UN has no ability to measure the deaths and thus can't be a primary source.

If you have a better one, cough it up. They have access to as much data as anyone.

You are still ignoring the fact that not even the fatality list published by the Hamas MoH supports the 70% figure you keep posting.
Why are you ignoring my posts about this?

 

[TomC]

Nope.
It's because the Gazan health ministry is operated by Hamas.

That’s what I said.

No it isn't.
What you did was "like" LD's nonsense. Then post the sort of snarky mischaracterization (bordering on lies) that I have come to expect from many posters in this thread.
Including you.

I said nothing about

a place full of people who need exterminating,

nor

Only the Israeli ministry of Bibi’s propaganda need be taken seriously.

That's all you.

Tom

 

[laughing dog]

There is no reason to make any assumption about the relationship amputations and mortality rates in war,

There is no reason to make any assumption that the two would be significantly different. Same injuries - e.g. shrapnel wounds, blast injuries, crush injuries - that are plentiful in this war can cause both amputations and deaths depending on severity and how soon the wounded get help.
Why would you think the two would not just be significantly different, but actually opposite, as you implied in a previous post?

Amputations are done on live people. So, if there are more amputations performed on X compared to Y, it is possible there more Ys did not survive to get an amputation.

My point was and is that information about rates of amputation don't really show much about relative mortality rates.