Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

The bizarre levels you and the other terrorism apologists go to justifying the violence by tribal supremacists like the GWM, and their international supporters.

Example, please.
I condemn the heinous acts of Hamas, and would not complain if ALL of them were killed in pager explosions that took out an equal number of "innocent bystanders". But the way Bibipologists blithely pursue indiscriminate killing and destruction and try to spin it as a rational response to their loss - now years ago - of a few thousand souls that Bibi's negligence left vulnerable... SICK.

You're doing the same thing the MAGAs are--not questioning the "facts" that have been hammered into you by repetition.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Perhaps this would have been better:

The only way any of this works is to look at this incident in a vacuum, that this hatred for Israel and the US grew organically.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

The situation did not grow organically, from day 1 the Muslims have been providing the sparks and fanning the fire. The "trigger" was the very creation of Israel--they were attacked before they had done anything but declare their existence. It wasn't that anybody was hurt, it was the existence of a Jewish land in areas they considered long conquered was a horrendous offense to Islam.

We've covered all this in the larger thread. My position is the US had no business establishing the state of Israel in 1948. It was not for us to do. It was a consolation for the Holocaust.
As far as who might be the more aggrieved party, again I'll stand on my twice written claim that the majority of the civilized world in the UN seem to agree with my position, not yours as they routinely stand against the US and Israel.

I agree that I don't like the formation of Israel. However, that doesn't make destroying it a good thing. You're asking millions of people to submit to genocide. You soothe your conscience by pretending it's not genocide, but both sides know better.

 

[Elixir]

You're doing the same thing the MAGAs are--not questioning the "facts" that have been hammered into you by repetition.

What source tells you that the UN stats are wildly wrong, and most Gazan's killed by Israel were NOT women and children?
They and others say it’s about 70%. You say I’m drinking Kool Ade. But you won’t say what you’re drinking.
Physician, heal thyself!!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So why do liberals support oppressive theocratic nations whose unmistakable intent is genocide?

So why do [folks] like you always make very obvious straw man arguments and never realize they're straw man arguments? (edited)

Strawman??

Oppressive? How can you imagine Hamas isn't oppressive?

Theocratic? Again, how can you imagine otherwise?

Thus that leaves only the question of genocidal. And Hamas has repeatedly said their intent is genocide.

But they're opposed to the Jews, thus they must be good guys. Thus they must not actually intend the genocide they claim to want.

The atrocities visited upon the hostages should be enough to make it very clear what's going on. There simply is no possible defense of such abuse. It's not like using torture on a captured spy, those people knew nothing important and Hamas knew that. Thus it's purely about sadism. What reason to you have to think they wouldn't treat the rest of the Jews the same if they were in a position to be able to?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So why do liberals support oppressive theocratic nations whose unmistakable intent is genocide?

So why do [folks] like you always make very obvious straw man arguments and never realize they're straw man arguments? (edited)

There's no strawman argument there.
Israel's neighbors have been trying to get rid of the Jews for decades.

Like @Colonel Sanders, I'm confused by why violent Muslim terrorists got so high on the PC protected persons list. But I have watched it happen. The PC people don't even bother making arguments much anymore. They just handwave terrorist violence, insult the rest of us, and flounce away.
Tom

Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.

The problem is you have no answers for how they are supposed to do that while protecting their own people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So why do liberals support oppressive theocratic nations whose unmistakable intent is genocide?

So why do [folks] like you always make very obvious straw man arguments and never realize they're straw man arguments? (edited)

There's no strawman argument there.
Israel's neighbors have been trying to get rid of the Jews for decades.

Like @Colonel Sanders, I'm confused by why violent Muslim terrorists got so high on the PC protected persons list. But I have watched it happen. The PC people don't even bother making arguments much anymore. They just handwave terrorist violence, insult the rest of us, and flounce away.
Tom

Because the left works from the faith that there is always a good answer. Bad things are always due to those with the most power not caring about the people.

Once you grant that fallacy it's "obvious" that the Jews are in the wrong because they are the side with the obvious power. And the claims about the actions of Hamas et al inherently must be false because if true that's a level of evil that the little guy simply doesn't have. They don't listen because people are pretty much unable to understand blasphemy. The blasphemy inherently must be wrong, it's never actually evaluated.

Faith can exist independent of religion. The left is by no means immune to faith based "reasoning".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel was remarkably good at avoiding unnecessary casualties.

Is this mindless repeating of Israel propaganda? Israel has been using 2,000 lb bombs, which the US didn't use in Iraq because they were too much of a danger to civilian population. They are using unguided munitions.

Yea, I heard that claim of a 'low' civilian death count, lower than any war in history!!!!... except if you look at the numbers they were claiming, the initial attack by Hamas targeted mainly people in the military, and had a lower civilian death count than what Israel was proudly claiming.

Iraq wasn't full of tunnels. The 2000# bombs were for the tunnels. We do not see the sort of damage a surface-burst 2000# bomb would do.

And against some targets unguided is good enough. Remember, Hamas has no air defense to speak of--dive-bombing is viable. It works a lot better now than it did in WWII and even then it was good enough to put bombs on ships. It's typically not used because the plane doing it is horrendously vulnerable to MANPAD fire as it pulls out, but when there are no MANPADs it works nearly as good as guided.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Their choices are fight, thus causing major Palestinian casualties (but not genocide no matter how often Hamas leads you into chanting it) or to die. There is no middle ground no matter how much the leftist faith says there is.

Never mind "leftist faith", recent history says that these are not the only options.

Damn that leftist history, coming here disagreeing with our simplistic demands for violence.

Perhaps we need to kill history too, to stop it from contradicting the propaganda line we need to take in order to justify killing thousands of people (which is technically not genocide, and therefore perfectly OK).

Denying that you're operating on faith doesn't change the fact you are.

You have not presented any reasonable other options.

And you're the one that isn't looking at history--you keep demanding an appeasement approach from Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm talking about the ones Gazans kidnapped almost a year and a half ago.

T

Kidnapping spree that continues to this day

Who got kidnapped yesterday? Today? Where can I go to be kept up on these things?

I'm talking about the ones Gazans kidnapped almost a year and a half ago.

That is not a kidnapping happening today. It's not a "Kidnapping spree that continues to this day."
You're talking about victims of kidnappings that occurred almost a year and a half ago and are still being held by or have already been killed by the kidnappers. The "spree" ended almost as fast as it began. The aftermath continues, with retributive genocide and ongoing deaths of the kidnapped, part and parcel of the response.
Another misrepresentation duly noted. Oh well, at least Bibi still has his job and isn't in jail. Because that's why this is still going on.

So long as they are still held it's ongoing.

Especially when they are reneging on agreements about releasing them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's no genocide going on.

View attachment 49540

Keyword: "intent". By that: Hamas is guilty, Israel is not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is this mindless repeating of Israel propaganda? Israel has been using 2,000 lb bombs, which the US didn't use in Iraq because they were too much of a danger to civilian population.

[citation needed]

They are using unguided munitions.

Not true. Israel uses JDAM.

Israel did use some unguided stuff. Not everything was in the cities, dive bombing is good enough for isolated buildings where there isn't other stuff close enough to be caught in the boom.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The alternative is to not engage in such massive destruction and death. Duh.

I would agree.
Unfortunately, GWM don't care about how many Gazans die in the disaster.
So they launched a bunch of missiles and used their own people for human shields.

How about the Muslim terrorists don't keep up the massive death and destruction? Obviously, it's because Muslims are just violent tribalists? Maybe you have another explanation for the disaster going on in Gaza?
Tom

Disagree. They care how many die--the more the better. Dead Gazans are weapons, very useful for parading in front of the cameras.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.

Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom

It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic. But the displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank to make way for even more settlers should end immediately. Obviously it's fueling the conflict and needs to stop.

Will you be first in like for going to Auschwitz? If you think the Jews should go why not you?

 

[Politesse]

Oh, I guess that makes genocide okay.

No, I oppose genocide in the strongest of terms. And I think you know that, considering you've lectured me in the past for being a so-called "ideologue" about this very issue as concerned Biden's possible re-election.

Then we should ignore it?

That course of action would be far superior to our current course of action, which is funding and equipping the slaughter directly and running diplomatic interference for Israel no matter what they do. No good will come of having chosen a side in another country's bitter, monstrous, endless civil war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No people just give a damn about human rights, apparently you don't.

Do you mean those of us who support multiethnic democracy?
Or violent Muslim terrorists?

Because it's pretty obvious to me which side you fall on. Rather like a bunch of other people on this forum.
Tom

The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum support multiethnic democracy.

It's just that some here think they can have one in Israel while carefully controlling the mix of religious communities and ethnicities so that Jews will always occupy the most favorable social position, while others realize that as long as non-Jewish Palestinians are discriminated against, it isn't really the multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity it's claimed to be.

You can't build a just and fair society on a foundation of bias and bigotry. Israel can either be the Jewish State that exists for the benefit of Jews alone, or it can be a multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity to all. Or it can be a partner in peace with a Palestinian State (or more than one), as a way to have its cake and eat it, too.

And you can sooth your conscience and say you didn't intend genocide. Your "morality" is based on actions, not outcomes. We are looking at outcomes and consider your disregard for them to be evil.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trump has posted a video with his vision for the future of Gaza.

Yeah. Israel isn't genocidal. The Felon is. We have unquestionably elected a major evil.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would worry about random Islamist violence before I would worry about being targeted if you do not display any outward Jewish symbols.

Lulz! If you're Jewish you may have bigger problems not displaying any outward Jewish symbols.
There are still more Jews than Muslims in America, but this may change in the near future.

Jewish man mistakes two Israeli tourists for Palestinians and opens fire on them in Miami​

​

Faux strikes again. Keep preaching fear, fear, fear and sometimes you'll get unreasonable fear.

 

[Elixir]

There's no genocide going on.

View attachment 49540

Keyword: "intent". By that: Hamas is guilty, Israel is not.

WUT? That makes no sense unless you are stipulating that Israel is "people" and Hamas is not.
Do you deny that Israeli is killing large numbers of PEOPLE with the intent of destroying a particular group?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The international community does not support Hamas, Tom, or terrorists. The outrage over what happened in Gaza is not because terrorists died. And you know that, too. So why are you writing what you're writing? I think you should take a long hard look in a mirtor, and ask what kind of world you want to live in. Is it one where you are held personally responsible for the worst actions taken by others of your race, to the point of your own blood being spilled to pay for their crimes? If not, and I'm assuming that would be your answer, then pushing racist ideologies is a self-defeating game.

The international community effectively does support Hamas. Any actual wrongs by Hamas are tolerated or blamed on Israel, but Israel is automatically assumed guilty of things that are often staged.

 

[Elixir]

As I write this I have provided the primary source (United Nations) source for the statistic indicating that 70% of the victims of Israel's genocidal campaign have been women and children.
Loren has assaulted me for being deluded by propaganda, but fails to respond to my request for HIS sources.

So I stand by my contentions that
* Israel is killing mostly women and children and
* There has been no loss of Israeli civilian lives at the hand of Hamas since their terrorist attach of 10/23

Saying "you're wrong" or "your sources are lying to you" or "you're just repeating propaganda" doesn't feed the donkey, @Loren Pechtel
You should be reconsidering your position, in light of the statistics from a respected source that I have provided and your complete failure to provide a countervailing source.