Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Toni]

Inspired, yes, but it's a worldwide problem. By merging it in here it's gotten totally buried. Aid basically enslaves the population while letting us pretend we are doing good.

Please explain how Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and heads of other large corporations and the corporations themselves are slaves? Does their enslavement make them think that it is ok to enrich CEOs while not paying their fair share of taxes? While paying their workers a sub living wage? Are they racing to see who can become the first trillionaire in order to assuage the wounds their slavery due to all of the corporate welfare they’re forced to accept?

Loren, you make zero sense.

I make no sense? I'm trying to figure out how your response is remotely related to what I said.

The study that nobody is willing to address showed how across the world humanitarian aid is nearly totally diverted to the oppressors. This has no relationship to billionaires.

The study that you linked? And I missed it?

I’ve heard such allegations as aid not actually helping the intended recipients because dot is diverted or some other reason.

I’ve heard that those studies have been refuted.

Your assertion makes zero sense or at least is not within the realm of worthy of consideration unless you share with us what the source you are talking about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I honestly don't understand how anyone can support Israel at this point when there is so much evidence that they are purposely destroying the populace in Gaza. Criticizing Israel does not equate to antisemitism. Israel has a leader who is guilty of war crimes and even much of the Jewish population around the world has criticized him as well as some members of the IDF.

Except we see the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny.

Here's an article that adds more evidence of what Israel is doing to innocent civilians, but of course some of you don't want to know the truth, so I doubt you'll ever read all of it. It's a very long article so I'm just pasting a few parts and of course Israel is denying what these other reliable agencies are claiming. I'll trust what the NYTimes investigators claim over any claims made by the posters here who rarely if ever give convincing evidence of their claims.

There's no need to read it as this is common "knowledge"--that is, the story Hamas is spreading. Doesn't make it remotely true. This wolf has been cried again and again, ever louder and more ridiculous claims do not make it any more accurate. To date Hamas has managed to find 12 people who are starving--all 12 of which are starving for medical reasons. You've worked hospice, you've certainly seen it. If the wolf cries are remotely accurate they would have real cases to parade, not just fake ones.

This "news" was set up weeks ago. I pointed it out at the time, they were claiming level 5 famine conditions despite a supposed (why couldn't their photographers find a single real case??) death rate over the whole war that wouldn't result in a level 5 rating had it happened in a single day. And there is major cooking of the books. The UN reports the amount of aid that reaches their warehouses. The 90%+ and increasing percent that does not is not counted. Anything brought in privately is not counted. Anything brought in by the GHF isn't counted. Anything that simply sits at the borders because they won't pay for it's transport isn't counted.

 

[laughing dog]

Inspired, yes, but it's a worldwide problem. By merging it in here it's gotten totally buried. Aid basically enslaves the population while letting us pretend we are doing good.

Please explain how Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and heads of other large corporations and the corporations themselves are slaves? Does their enslavement make them think that it is ok to enrich CEOs while not paying their fair share of taxes? While paying their workers a sub living wage? Are they racing to see who can become the first trillionaire in order to assuage the wounds their slavery due to all of the corporate welfare they’re forced to accept?

Loren, you make zero sense.

I make no sense? I'm trying to figure out how your response is remotely related to what I said.

The study that nobody is willing to address showed how across the world humanitarian aid is nearly totally diverted to the oppressors. This has no relationship to billionaires.

The study that you linked? And I missed it?

I’ve heard such allegations as aid not actually helping the intended recipients because dot is diverted or some other reason.

I’ve heard that those studies have been refuted.

Your assertion makes zero sense or at least is not within the realm of worthy of consideration unless you share with us what the source you are talking about.

If LP is referring to the UN statistics, there is no information on the identities of the diverters/interceptors or the recipients.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, the UN simply lumps all diversion into one category, not attempting to break out how much is Hamas vs how much is civilians.

That’s because such figures are not available. Not to them, not to me and NOT TO YOU. You pulled the 90% figure out of your ass, right? At least no source was cited.

<Thwack!>
Twice I gave the UN page that lists the amount that enters and the amount that reaches it's destination. Basic math will give you the percentage.

But nobody even looked because that would mean seeing that you had fallen for the lies.

I will take more stock in what the people on the ground say than what a stateside supporter of Bibi’s genocide campaign says.

Your "people on the ground" are almost all terrorists.

One thing is for sure: if there was adequate relief it wouldn’t be getting “diverted”.

And here you are utterly wrong. Hamas controls the people by controlling the food. Thus they have to divert it to maintain control. Doesn't matter how much is coming in, they have to take it even if they have no use for it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And anyone who wants to blame Israel for the Palestinian civilians killed will just have to get used to be called racist and bigoted

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has occasionally admitted responsibility when investigations show Israeli fire killed Palestinian civilians.

Edit: To be clear, the IDF does rightly report these as unintentional deaths caused by its own fire, not purely by Hamas. I agree that proximity to Hamas is a major factor, and I share the IDF’s framing of these casualties. But your view, that it’s 100% on Hamas, isn’t accurate, because it isn’t that absolute. But I guess agreeing with the IDF is racist and bigoted because it's me right?

I was talking about the spectacular cases supposedly from "IDF snipers" caught on camera, not all deaths blamed on the IDF. I'm not saying there haven't been mistakes--there are always mistakes, even more so when one side is going out of it's way to cause mistakes. And not all of the "mistakes" are actually mistakes. Hamas people pretend to be other things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, the UN simply lumps all diversion into one category, not attempting to break out how much is Hamas vs how much is civilians.

That’s because such figures are not available. Not to them, not to me and NOT TO YOU. You pulled the 90% figure out of your ass, right? At least no source was cited.
I will take more stock in what the people on the ground say than what a stateside supporter of Bibi’s genocide campaign says.
One thing is for sure: if there was adequate relief it wouldn’t be getting “diverted”.

More importantly, different categories - civilians, criminal gangs and Hamas - divert or intercept aid. Where the diverted aid ends up is an empirical matter, but the key is it doesn’t necessarily end up with Hamas. And the Isreali officer’s report that there is no proof of systemic theft by Hamas suggests the assumption that the bulk of diverted aid goes to Hamas is unsupported by fact.

No proof that it was Hamas is not evidence it's not Hamas. All Israel can see is armed individuals taking it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As much as it might make you feel uncomfortable, Jews have a right to defend themselves. You can’t send hundreds of suicide bombers over a border and then start crying when they put a wall up

Toni has already proven that the walls were put up before the suicide bombing campaign began. You do understand the concept of time, right?

The rest of your post is just the same insulting drivel you always post.

1) Fences were up, not walls.

2) So what if they did? A country is free to put any barrier it wants on it's borders, there is nothing wrongful in doing so.

Israel is only free to put up fences, walls, barriers, etc. on land that belongs to it. It has some limited authority to put up barriers on land under military occupation but no authority to annex that land or to pretend it now belongs to Israel.

Which is irrelevant to the issue of the border wall.

It's only relevant to the exclusion zone Israel declared on the far side of the wall, which ended up going away after Hamas forced enough civilians into it that killing them was unacceptable. One of the key elements of setting up 10/7.

 

[TomC]

Bibi is corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon terror for his political life.
If it’s not true why don’t genocide supporters argue it?

The Clintons and Joe Biden are also corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon lies for their political lives. Just ask Fox and Carlson or InfoWars and Jones or any of their other myriad detractors. Or the people who are convinced that their detractors are correct.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bibi is corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon terror for his political life.
If it’s not true why don’t genocide supporters argue it?

We aren't genocide supporters. It's just we recognize that going around slapping a "genocide" label on something doesn't make it genocide.

And do you see any of us defending him? No. But we see the actions are defined by the situation, his being in charge has little to do with it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Therein lie the rub. Jew seized Arab land and with no compensation. The borders of Israel by agreement after the war were supposed to be settled, but Israel has never abide bay any agreements.

The border of Israel is wherever Israel can get away with setting it. When Israel seized Palestinian farms on the border Netanyahu when questioned said 'it is just a small piece of land'.

There has been no movement of the border other than due to attacks upon Israel. That's how war tends to work--you attack someone, you lose, they generally take some land.

 

[Toni]

No, the UN simply lumps all diversion into one category, not attempting to break out how much is Hamas vs how much is civilians.

That’s because such figures are not available. Not to them, not to me and NOT TO YOU. You pulled the 90% figure out of your ass, right? At least no source was cited.

<Thwack!>
Twice I gave the UN page that lists the amount that enters and the amount that reaches it's destination. Basic math will give you the percentage.

But nobody even looked because that would mean seeing that you had fallen for the lies.

I will take more stock in what the people on the ground say than what a stateside supporter of Bibi’s genocide campaign says.

Your "people on the ground" are almost all terrorists.

One thing is for sure: if there was adequate relief it wouldn’t be getting “diverted”.

And here you are utterly wrong. Hamas controls the people by controlling the food. Thus they have to divert it to maintain control. Doesn't matter how much is coming in, they have to take it even if they have no use for it.

I missed your link. Care to post it again?

 

[Toni]

Inspired, yes, but it's a worldwide problem. By merging it in here it's gotten totally buried. Aid basically enslaves the population while letting us pretend we are doing good.

Please explain how Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and heads of other large corporations and the corporations themselves are slaves? Does their enslavement make them think that it is ok to enrich CEOs while not paying their fair share of taxes? While paying their workers a sub living wage? Are they racing to see who can become the first trillionaire in order to assuage the wounds their slavery due to all of the corporate welfare they’re forced to accept?

Loren, you make zero sense.

I make no sense? I'm trying to figure out how your response is remotely related to what I said.

The study that nobody is willing to address showed how across the world humanitarian aid is nearly totally diverted to the oppressors. This has no relationship to billionaires.

The study that you linked? And I missed it?

I’ve heard such allegations as aid not actually helping the intended recipients because dot is diverted or some other reason.

I’ve heard that those studies have been refuted.

Your assertion makes zero sense or at least is not within the realm of worthy of consideration unless you share with us what the source you are talking about.

If LP is referring to the UN statistics, there is no information on the identities of the diverters/interceptors or the recipients.

Loren is capable of clarifying and pointing out where, exactly, he linked relevant info.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Inspired, yes, but it's a worldwide problem. By merging it in here it's gotten totally buried. Aid basically enslaves the population while letting us pretend we are doing good.

Please explain how Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and heads of other large corporations and the corporations themselves are slaves? Does their enslavement make them think that it is ok to enrich CEOs while not paying their fair share of taxes? While paying their workers a sub living wage? Are they racing to see who can become the first trillionaire in order to assuage the wounds their slavery due to all of the corporate welfare they’re forced to accept?

Loren, you make zero sense.

I make no sense? I'm trying to figure out how your response is remotely related to what I said.

The study that nobody is willing to address showed how across the world humanitarian aid is nearly totally diverted to the oppressors. This has no relationship to billionaires.

The study that you linked? And I missed it?

I’ve heard such allegations as aid not actually helping the intended recipients because dot is diverted or some other reason.

I’ve heard that those studies have been refuted.

Your assertion makes zero sense or at least is not within the realm of worthy of consideration unless you share with us what the source you are talking about.

The study I linked is new, I have not seen prior work in the field.

And the report I'm talking about I created in a separate thread (as it's about aid in general, not specific to Gaza) but it got merged into here.

Even when not diverted it goes to those in power--which are the ones creating the situation that needs the aid.

 

[TomC]

Bibi is corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon terror for his political life.
If it’s not true why don’t genocide supporters argue it?

We aren't genocide supporters. It's just we recognize that going around slapping a "genocide" label on something doesn't make it genocide.

And do you see any of us defending him? No. But we see the actions are defined by the situation, his being in charge has little to do with it.

The closest thing to genocide going on here is the violent Muslim supremacists using Gazans as cannon fodder/human shields.
Unfortunately, they have a ton of supporters and apologists.
Many of whom post in this thread.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why in the heck would you suggest I think that the hostages should forever remain hostages? Are you that certain of your own infalible brain, that any other thoughts have to be wickedpy wrong?

The hostages will remain hostages until something is done to deal with the situation.

"Something" doesn't have to be "nothing" or 20 more months of military action.

Israel has tried releasing terrorists, it got them 10/7 and this time around Hamas simply quit going along. There is no other path to free them but force.

20 months says it hasn't worked for their release. Israel can't break Hamas this way.

ETA, one important thing to remember is that just because one side has a viable grievance, doesn't automatically make their response to the grievance constructive and/or moral.

Which is not presenting any other viable approach.

I can't personally solve Israel's Hamas issue... therefore whatever Netanyahu chooses to do is best. False dichotomy there.

I remember writing right after the 9/11 attack that the hope was in that when all was said and done, that 9/11 remained the outstanding moral atrocity, not our response to it.

We didn't really have a choice. We had to clobber Afghanistan for reasons of deterrence.

Patriot Act, Torture policies, Iraq... Jesus fucking Christ. Can you string more than a few moments together?

Your faith is wrong, sometimes there are only horrible choices.

You think the danger will always exist, therefore, a ceasefire for the release of the remaining hostages (if that could be established) would certainly be the best worst option.

 

[bilby]

Israel has tried releasing terrorists, it got them 10/7 and this time around Hamas simply quit going along. There is no other path to free them but giving every member of Hamas an icecream sundae.

I was going to say that this is exactly as logical as the original post (which of course, it is); But having written it, I am thinking it's a strategy genuinely more likely to result in the release of the hostages than the current one being persued by the IDF.

Force is practically the worst possible way to get hostages released. It's an excellent way to get them dead, either through 'friendly fire', or by forcing the terrorists to flee, and making them decide that live hostages are slowing them down.

Of they could escape, and be gunned down by 'friendly fire' anyway.

If you feel that military force against Hamas and Gazans in general is a good thing, then that's an opinion I don't share, but which you can probably justify. But if you feel that such force is in any way helpful to the hostages, you are utterly delusional.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bibi is corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon terror for his political life.
If it’s not true why don’t genocide supporters argue it?

The Clintons and Joe Biden are also corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon lies for their political lives. Just ask Fox and Carlson or InfoWars and Jones or any of their other myriad detractors. Or the people who are convinced that their detractors are correct.
Tom

I think his detractors are at least in the ballpark on describing him--the thing is it doesn't matter. Any leader would take similar steps.

 

[Arctish]

As much as it might make you feel uncomfortable, Jews have a right to defend themselves. You can’t send hundreds of suicide bombers over a border and then start crying when they put a wall up

Toni has already proven that the walls were put up before the suicide bombing campaign began. You do understand the concept of time, right?

The rest of your post is just the same insulting drivel you always post.

1) Fences were up, not walls.

2) So what if they did? A country is free to put any barrier it wants on it's borders, there is nothing wrongful in doing so.

Israel is only free to put up fences, walls, barriers, etc. on land that belongs to it. It has some limited authority to put up barriers on land under military occupation but no authority to annex that land or to pretend it now belongs to Israel.

Which is irrelevant to the issue of the border wall.

It would be irrelevant if Israel had borders negotiated by treaty and recognized by the international community, as it does with Egypt and the Kingdom of Jordan, and only built things on the Israel side of it.

It's only relevant to the exclusion zone Israel declared on the far side of the wall, which ended up going away after Hamas forced enough civilians into it that killing them was unacceptable. One of the key elements of setting up 10/7.

Interesting phrasing, the claim that Hamas forced "enough" civilians into a zone on the Palestinian side of the wall that killing them was unacceptable, when it's really the case that Israel did not have any right to create such a zone on the not-Israel side and that killing civilians going about their business outside of Israel is unacceptable no matter how few are murdered.

Israel had no right to set up an exclusion zone on the Gaza side of the barrier it built, although a case can be made it had a Right to create an exclusion zone on it's own side after it accepted the 1948 borders as part of the Oslo Accords.

It never had a Right to kill civilians for the same reason Hamas never had that Right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why in the heck would you suggest I think that the hostages should forever remain hostages? Are you that certain of your own infalible brain, that any other thoughts have to be wickedpy wrong?

The hostages will remain hostages until something is done to deal with the situation.

"Something" doesn't have to be "nothing" or 20 more months of military action.

We don't have perfect knowledge. The choices are between write them off and continue to fight.

Israel has tried releasing terrorists, it got them 10/7 and this time around Hamas simply quit going along. There is no other path to free them but force.

20 months says it hasn't worked for their release. Israel can't break Hamas this way.

I don't think Israel can break Hamas. All they can do is dismantle as much of it as possible. And they seem to have hit on a good tactic with the GHF--it was the aid that was supporting Hamas. And that's why Hamas is going bonkers over the GHF.

ETA, one important thing to remember is that just because one side has a viable grievance, doesn't automatically make their response to the grievance constructive and/or moral.

Which is not presenting any other viable approach.

I can't personally solve Israel's Hamas issue... therefore whatever Netanyahu chooses to do is best. False dichotomy there.

It's not whether you can. What's important is nobody has a better plan.

I remember writing right after the 9/11 attack that the hope was in that when all was said and done, that 9/11 remained the outstanding moral atrocity, not our response to it.

We didn't really have a choice. We had to clobber Afghanistan for reasons of deterrence.

Patriot Act, Torture policies, Iraq... Jesus fucking Christ. Can you string more than a few moments together?

I meant Afghanistan. Patriot Act certainly shouldn't have happened by it's the same sort of thing I'm talking about with blaming Israel: Problem: 9/11. "Solution": Patriot Act. And people jumped at it. Problem: lots of dead people in front of the cameras. "Solution": Blame Israel.

Your faith is wrong, sometimes there are only horrible choices.

You think the danger will always exist, therefore, a ceasefire for the release of the remaining hostages (if that could be established) would certainly be the best worst option.

Keywords: "if that could be established". Realistically, Israel would go along. Hamas, not a chance.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has tried releasing terrorists, it got them 10/7 and this time around Hamas simply quit going along. There is no other path to free them but giving every member of Hamas an icecream sundae.

I was going to say that this is exactly as logical as the original post (which of course, it is); But having written it, I am thinking it's a strategy genuinely more likely to result in the release of the hostages than the current one being persued by the IDF.

I'm talking about what has actually happened. Many of the 10/7 people were released in a prior hostage deal. They got back one, ended up losing a lot more.

If you feel that military force against Hamas and Gazans in general is a good thing, then that's an opinion I don't share, but which you can probably justify. But if you feel that such force is in any way helpful to the hostages, you are utterly delusional.

The problem here is "good". It's not good. It's the least bad. It is entirely reasonable for Israel to set up the situation such that the fighting is not on their territory--Israel has no way to make there be no fighting. And note that it has gotten the majority of them out.