Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's another good one, on how antisemitism today works.

Nah. Possibly angering Jewish people or advocating that civilians of any group are not killed is not antisemitism. Calling it antisemitism smacks of desperation and stupidity.

Antisemitism has been so normalized that you're not seeing it right in front of your face.

He is making a very simple comparison, you are not addressing the comparison at all, just saying he isn't pointing out antisemitism.

Right, because if it is not antisemitism then DrZ’s point is invalid.

The issue is what the video said, not what Z said.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why should we trust the aid workers?



Their own video damns them, it's staged. You'll need to be logged in to read the explanation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And some more about the "starvation".

A while back I posted the UN link that showed huge diversion and only counts what the UN handles. Turns out there's also an Israeli count: https://gaza-aid-data.gov.il/main/

2.4 pounds/day/person average over the whole time.

 

[laughing dog]

Here's another good one, on how antisemitism today works.

Nah. Possibly angering Jewish people or advocating that civilians of any group are not killed is not antisemitism. Calling it antisemitism smacks of desperation and stupidity.

Antisemitism has been so normalized that you're not seeing it right in front of your face.

He is making a very simple comparison, you are not addressing the comparison at all, just saying he isn't pointing out antisemitism.

Right, because if it is not antisemitism then DrZ’s point is invalid.

The issue is what the video said, not what Z said.

The video said that saying Palestinian lives matter by the the same people who got angry to the respondents of BLM who said "All Lives Matter" must anger Jewish people. Dr Z said that is how antisemitism works.

At best, the video is an exercise in pointing out hypocrisy on the left under the dubious assumption that the BLM protest situation and Gaza are comparable, Even under that stretch, hypocrisy may be an indication of antisemitism in this case, but it is certainly not a smoking gun. At best, the validity of Dr Z's argument rests on dubious assumptions.

 

[laughing dog]

Why should we trust the aid workers?



Their own video damns them, it's staged. You'll need to be logged in to read the explanation.

Perhaps you could give the explanation for those who cannot log in.

But, if the issue is that someone on a side lies thereby making the entire side untrustworthy, since you admit the IDF lies, why should we trust the IDF reports?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel got permission from the families to release some of that horrific video they previously had only shown to reporters. This is a mix of combat video taken by Hamas, security cameras and interrogation videos. Remember, the combat video is what Hamas crows about, it does not represent people out of control.

Spoiler: Not safe for humanity

Spoiler: Are you sure?

22 Minutes

The dangerous things I think out loud

evebarlow.substack.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The video said that saying Palestinian lives matter by the the same people who got angry to the respondents of BLM who said "All Lives Matter" must anger Jewish people. Dr Z said that is how antisemitism works.

At best, the video is an exercise in pointing out hypocrisy on the left under the dubious assumption that the BLM protest situation and Gaza are comparable, Even under that stretch, hypocrisy may be an indication of antisemitism in this case, but it is certainly not a smoking gun. At best, the validity of Dr Z's argument rests on dubious assumptions.

What's dubious about it? How are they different? You still aren't addressing the point.

 

[laughing dog]

The video said that saying Palestinian lives matter by the the same people who got angry to the respondents of BLM who said "All Lives Matter" must anger Jewish people. Dr Z said that is how antisemitism works.

At best, the video is an exercise in pointing out hypocrisy on the left under the dubious assumption that the BLM protest situation and Gaza are comparable, Even under that stretch, hypocrisy may be an indication of antisemitism in this case, but it is certainly not a smoking gun. At best, the validity of Dr Z's argument rests on dubious assumptions.

What's dubious about it? How are they different?

It is unsurprising you don’t see the difference. The video places the Israelis in the analogous position as the victims of state sanctioned violence not the Gazans.

You still aren't addressing the point.

I did. To quote someone, saying I am not does make it so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why should we trust the aid workers?



Their own video damns them, it's staged. You'll need to be logged in to read the explanation.

Perhaps you could give the explanation for those who cannot log in.

But, if the issue is that someone on a side lies thereby making the entire side untrustworthy, since you admit the IDF lies, why should we trust the IDF reports?

1) Continuity error. There weren't tracks on the ground, then there were--but if the video is true there wasn't any vehicle there to leave the tracks.

2) The door positions are wrong. The driver's door isn't open enough for anyone to have been removed--but there's nobody there. The passenger door is slid open (this is a van, not a bus) despite the rescuers not having adequate gloves to have opened the hot door.

3) No signs of bodies even though the fire was still burning. People reached into fire to pull them out while wearing nitrile?!

4) Supposedly in combat but there are no sounds of combat.

And he missed:

5) This is supposedly the result of a tank cannon. What did it fire?
5a) Sabot? I can't imagine why they would be carrying sabot rounds. A sabot round is hardly going to notice going through the van. You would have matching small holes, spalling damage inside.

5b) HEAT? The likely round (or a more modern version, but the effect would be similar), even though not exactly ideal for the job. I'm not finding the explosive weight of any such shell, but the US version flings a 25 pound package, typically gun fired devices are about 20% boom so figure 5 pounds of boom. It's a shaped charge so the majority of the energy went forward but you still have a decent amount of boom, yet no deformation of the vehicle. The frame would likely stand up to that but the panels would not. I'm not finding an equation that I'm confident in using but I found some calculated values. The vehicle panels were exposed to at least 150psi. To give it some scale--this is way, way beyond elephants stepping on it.

5c) Canister? It would look like a sieve.

Once again we have damage that utterly does not make sense for the weapon supposedly employed.

And where have I said the IDF lies? I have said they make mistakes, but that's not the same as lying. I pointed out that the reporters were going with a quote that did not mean what was implied. (Saying they can't prove it's Hamas diverting the aid doesn't prove it's not.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The video said that saying Palestinian lives matter by the the same people who got angry to the respondents of BLM who said "All Lives Matter" must anger Jewish people. Dr Z said that is how antisemitism works.

At best, the video is an exercise in pointing out hypocrisy on the left under the dubious assumption that the BLM protest situation and Gaza are comparable, Even under that stretch, hypocrisy may be an indication of antisemitism in this case, but it is certainly not a smoking gun. At best, the validity of Dr Z's argument rests on dubious assumptions.

What's dubious about it? How are they different?

It is unsurprising you don’t see the difference. The video places the Israelis in the analogous position as the victims of state sanctioned violence not the Gazans.

The context was 10/7. Who was attacked?

You still aren't addressing the point.

I did. To quote someone, saying I am not does make it so.

No, you didn't. You pretended it wasn't applicable.

The comparison is simple: 10/7 = George Floyd. You're turning it around and responding police lives matter.

 

[laughing dog]

Why should we trust the aid workers?



Their own video damns them, it's staged. You'll need to be logged in to read the explanation.

Perhaps you could give the explanation for those who cannot log in.

But, if the issue is that someone on a side lies thereby making the entire side untrustworthy, since you admit the IDF lies, why should we trust the IDF reports?

1) Continuity error. There weren't tracks on the ground, then there were--but if the video is true there wasn't any vehicle there to leave the tracks.

2) The door positions are wrong. The driver's door isn't open enough for anyone to have been removed--but there's nobody there. The passenger door is slid open (this is a van, not a bus) despite the rescuers not having adequate gloves to have opened the hot door.

3) No signs of bodies even though the fire was still burning. People reached into fire to pull them out while wearing nitrile?!

4) Supposedly in combat but there are no sounds of combat.

And he missed:

5) This is supposedly the result of a tank cannon. What did it fire?
5a) Sabot? I can't imagine why they would be carrying sabot rounds. A sabot round is hardly going to notice going through the van. You would have matching small holes, spalling damage inside.

5b) HEAT? The likely round (or a more modern version, but the effect would be similar), even though not exactly ideal for the job. I'm not finding the explosive weight of any such shell, but the US version flings a 25 pound package, typically gun fired devices are about 20% boom so figure 5 pounds of boom. It's a shaped charge so the majority of the energy went forward but you still have a decent amount of boom, yet no deformation of the vehicle. The frame would likely stand up to that but the panels would not. I'm not finding an equation that I'm confident in using but I found some calculated values. The vehicle panels were exposed to at least 150psi. To give it some scale--this is way, way beyond elephants stepping on it.

5c) Canister? It would look like a sieve.

Once again we have damage that utterly does not make sense for the weapon supposedly employed.

Thank you for the explanation.

And where have I said the IDF lies? I have said they make mistakes, but that's not the same as lying. I pointed out that the reporters were going with a quote that did not mean what was implied. (Saying they can't prove it's Hamas diverting the aid doesn't prove it's not.)

You said they apologize for “mistakes” without knowing the facts.

The IDF report says they found no evidence of systemstic diversion by Hamas. That has nothing whatsoever do with whatever you imagine some reporters wrote.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's another good one, on how antisemitism today works.

Nah. Possibly angering Jewish people or advocating that civilians of any group are not killed is not antisemitism. Calling it antisemitism smacks of desperation and stupidity.

Antisemitism has been so normalized that you're not seeing it right in front of your face.

He is making a very simple comparison, you are not addressing the comparison at all, just saying he isn't pointing out antisemitism.

Right, because if it is not antisemitism then DrZ’s point is invalid.

The issue is what the video said, not what Z said.

The video said that saying Palestinian lives matter by the the same people who got angry to the respondents of BLM who said "All Lives Matter" must anger Jewish people. Dr Z said that is how antisemitism works.

At best, the video is an exercise in pointing out hypocrisy on the left under the dubious assumption that the BLM protest situation and Gaza are comparable, Even under that stretch, hypocrisy may be an indication of antisemitism in this case, but it is certainly not a smoking gun. At best, the validity of Dr Z's argument rests on dubious assumptions.

I have a (philosopher) friend who I think might have the best explanation for why the left is pro Ukraine, but anti Israel. It has to do with power and power diffrential. The left today is obsessed with relative power. Arguably, they always were. Whoever has the most power is always in the wrong, no matter what anyone has done.

That might explain why leftists are so anti America. Like they can't do anything right.

I think it's a good theory.

 

[Tigers!]

I have a (philosopher) friend who I think might have the best explanation for why the left is pro Ukraine, but anti Israel. It has to do with power and power diffrential. The left today is obsessed with relative power. Arguably, they always were. Whoever has the most power is always in the wrong, no matter what anyone has done.

Except when the left is in power then it is alright (or is that left?)

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why should we trust the aid workers?



Their own video damns them, it's staged. You'll need to be logged in to read the explanation.

Perhaps you could give the explanation for those who cannot log in.

But, if the issue is that someone on a side lies thereby making the entire side untrustworthy, since you admit the IDF lies, why should we trust the IDF reports?

1) Continuity error. There weren't tracks on the ground, then there were--but if the video is true there wasn't any vehicle there to leave the tracks.

2) The door positions are wrong. The driver's door isn't open enough for anyone to have been removed--but there's nobody there. The passenger door is slid open (this is a van, not a bus) despite the rescuers not having adequate gloves to have opened the hot door.

3) No signs of bodies even though the fire was still burning. People reached into fire to pull them out while wearing nitrile?!

4) Supposedly in combat but there are no sounds of combat.

And he missed:

5) This is supposedly the result of a tank cannon. What did it fire?
5a) Sabot? I can't imagine why they would be carrying sabot rounds. A sabot round is hardly going to notice going through the van. You would have matching small holes, spalling damage inside.

5b) HEAT? The likely round (or a more modern version, but the effect would be similar), even though not exactly ideal for the job. I'm not finding the explosive weight of any such shell, but the US version flings a 25 pound package, typically gun fired devices are about 20% boom so figure 5 pounds of boom. It's a shaped charge so the majority of the energy went forward but you still have a decent amount of boom, yet no deformation of the vehicle. The frame would likely stand up to that but the panels would not. I'm not finding an equation that I'm confident in using but I found some calculated values. The vehicle panels were exposed to at least 150psi. To give it some scale--this is way, way beyond elephants stepping on it.

5c) Canister? It would look like a sieve.

Once again we have damage that utterly does not make sense for the weapon supposedly employed.

Thank you for the explanation.

And where have I said the IDF lies? I have said they make mistakes, but that's not the same as lying. I pointed out that the reporters were going with a quote that did not mean what was implied. (Saying they can't prove it's Hamas diverting the aid doesn't prove it's not.)

You said they apologize for “mistakes” without knowing the facts.

The IDF report says they found no evidence of systemstic diversion by Hamas. That has nothing whatsoever do with whatever you imagine some reporters wrote.

Please stop with these videos. They don't prove shit. None of them. Staging stuff like this is so easy. And propaganda is Hamas main weapon of choice. Everything about this conflict is just Hamas trying to maximise Palestinian civilian casualties and suffering to score propaganda points. Because they know they can't win a regular war. Their war is propaganda. Perhaps not intitially. But certainly now.

I'm sick of people (and news stations) uncritically sharing these clips. But also pro-Israelis wasting all that effort in trying to refute them.

It reminds me of the Intelligent design debate 20 years ago. Creationist flooded every channel with idiotic creationist videos. The more scientifically minded puts loads of effort and time into refuting the videos. It was just a tremendous waste of time and effort. Both camps were just preaching to the already converted. Nothing changed.

Hamas has already been lying so much their pants couldn't be more on fire. Yet the media keeps sharing their videos. Leftists around the world clearly don't give a fuck about the truth. They'll just keep uncritically sharing the videos and working themselves up to an indignant frenzy. I consider myself politically on the left, and this behavior hurts my feelings.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have a (philosopher) friend who I think might have the best explanation for why the left is pro Ukraine, but anti Israel. It has to do with power and power diffrential. The left today is obsessed with relative power. Arguably, they always were. Whoever has the most power is always in the wrong, no matter what anyone has done.

Except when the left is in power then it is alright (or is that left?)

The left never seems to see itself as in power. Even when they are.

It's funny to read the stuff that's written by feminists who were leaders in the 1970'ies. They're still fighting the same fight, even though the feminists won. They won every battle they fought. For good reason. They were right. But they're still fighting the same fight, even now. As if nothing has changed.

Or how lots of leftists still complain about the media representation of women and minorities, when media today is overwhelmingly and painfully woke. The market for non-woke media is dead today. Completely dead.

Or postmodern philosophy. Very much a leftist project. Postmodernism is designed to be a compliment to modernist philosophy, (positivism). It's a requirement. Without a modernist mainstream, postmondernism will just produce garbage. But postmodernists completely took over academia. The postmodernists just kept going, behaving as if they were still the minority postion, with a predictable results. Philosophy went crazy with increasingly bizarre aproaches. So now we have stuff like intersectionalism and post colonial theory. Just nonsense.

It's a weird behaviour.

I suspect it's inbuilt in the thinking. Leftists are sensitive to injustices. Which is good. But this is a muscle that fires too frequently. Even when it's not necessary. Everything isn't systematic opression. A lot of stuff is just people's varying tastes and interest, for a multitude of reasons. Leftists struggle with accepting this. Something I've noticed, looking at it from the inside.

 

[laughing dog]

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court in Israel ruled that the gov’t of Israel is failing to provide adequate food to Palestinian detainees/prisoners, and that it must provide adequate food. The ruling does not apply to Gaza.

Does that make the Supreme Court of Israel antisemitic or just those reporting the ruling?

 

[Tigers!]

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court in Israel ruled that the gov’t of Israel is failing to provide adequate food to Palestinian detainees/prisoners, and that it must provide adequate food. The ruling does not apply to Gaza.

Does that make the Supreme Court of Israel antisemitic or just those reporting the ruling?

If the authorities are not providing sufficient food then that must be rectified.

Since Hamas is not feeding the remaining hostages adequately I guess we can assume that they are anti-semitic?

I will still note that the Israelis, unlike Hamas, have mechanisms to note and correct abuses or when things are not right or correct.

 

[Gospel]

Here's another good one, on how antisemitism today works.

Nah. Possibly angering Jewish people or advocating that civilians of any group are not killed is not antisemitism. Calling it antisemitism smacks of desperation and stupidity.

Antisemitism has been so normalized that you're not seeing it right in front of your face.

He is making a very simple comparison, you are not addressing the comparison at all, just saying he isn't pointing out antisemitism.

Right, because if it is not antisemitism then DrZ’s point is invalid.

Why don't you think its antisemitism?

George Floyd was beaten by police and later died. Outrage. Hamas invaded Israel taking hostages. Outrage at Israel for trying to get the hostages back without appeasing the very group that attacked it.

How is that not antisemitism? How obvious does it need to get?

From my perspective you are either a racist and lying or badly in denial about your racism. That's just based on what you have been saying

Jewish is not a race. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just a simple mistake. Unlike you, I’m not going to jump to ridiculous conclusions just to score IIDB achievement points at the expense of Jewish people. A people I have no business speaking for and can only discuss from an outsiders prospective. Something you seem to not realize.

 

[laughing dog]

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court in Israel ruled that the gov’t of Israel is failing to provide adequate food to Palestinian detainees/prisoners, and that it must provide adequate food. The ruling does not apply to Gaza.

Does that make the Supreme Court of Israel antisemitic or just those reporting the ruling?

If the authorities are not providing sufficient food then that must be rectified.

Since Hamas is not feeding the remaining hostages adequately I guess we can assume that they are anti-semitic?

Most people had already come to that conclusion.

I note you didn’t answer the question.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And where have I said the IDF lies? I have said they make mistakes, but that's not the same as lying. I pointed out that the reporters were going with a quote that did not mean what was implied. (Saying they can't prove it's Hamas diverting the aid doesn't prove it's not.)

You said they apologize for “mistakes” without knowing the facts.

And this is lying? No, it's uncertainty. Somebody fabricates something about them, they can't quickly rule it out so they apologize, but in time we often see it was a fabrication.

The IDF report says they found no evidence of systemstic diversion by Hamas. That has nothing whatsoever do with whatever you imagine some reporters wrote.

They said they couldn't prove it was Hamas behind all the diversion. That is not the same as exonerating them. Since OJ wasn't the killer clearly his wife is still alive.