Gender-critical views in England

[Emily Lake]

I'm not making any exceptions.

Attacking trans people is attacking women. Even if we accept your argument that a person has no right to determine their own gender, the trans identity includes people erroneously assigned female at birth as well as those assigned male.

First off, nobody here is attacking trans people. And no - attacking trans people is NOT attacking women. Transwomen are not women - they are men who wish to be perceived as women. And that's fine - but wishing to be perceived as women does not actually make them women. Furthermore, transmen are not men - they are women who wish to be perceived as men. And a large number of those transmen who are known to be trans *still* get exposed to a significant amount of misogyny and sexism. And the effects of having been raised and conditioned as women is not a small thing - nor are the effects of having been raised and conditioned as men.

And quite frankly, I - and several other women - are really not at all okay with being recast and defined as body parts. I'm not a "cervix owner" or a "person who menstruates" or a "uterus haver". I'm a woman - an adult human female. I am not at all okay with seeing the meager and incomplete progress toward social and economic equality being made by women slipping away and being encroached upon by males who identify as women. I'm not okay with female athletes being told that they must compete with biological males. I'm not okay with lesbians being harassed and called names because they don't like penises, and I'm not okay with the frequent and persistent attempts of male-bodied transwomen who identify as lesbians pressuring and trying to coerce lesbians into having sex with them. I'm not okay with the erosion of women's physical and sexual boundaries. I'm not okay with the reality of biological sex, and the impact it has on women's lives being whitewashed away by the erosion of language, of not being able to refer to ourselves and our experiences in simple language. And I'm not okay with people who have been raised and conditioned as males inserting themselves into feminist efforts and positioning themselves so that men are centered above women in feminism.

Woman isn't a costume, it's not a set of stereotypes and properly feminine behaviors. It's a biological reality that has very real, very problematic effects on the lives of women. Sex isn't a spectrum, and sexism isn't based on gender identity.

And to be completely frank, the views expressed - and lauded - by notable tranwomen like Andrea Long Chu and Torrey Peters is really, really, deeply disturbing.

 

[Trausti]

I'm not making any exceptions.

Attacking trans people is attacking women. Even if we accept your argument that a person has no right to determine their own gender, the trans identity includes people erroneously assigned female at birth as well as those assigned male.

Nobody in the history of the universe has ever been assigned a gender at birth.

If they can assign you blood type and number of fingers and toes, they can assign you gender.

 

[Metaphor]

Nobody in the history of the universe has ever been assigned a gender at birth.

If they can assign you blood type and number of fingers and toes, they can assign you gender.

A baby's sex is recorded after birth by a cursory examination of its external genitalia. This recorded sex is almost never wrong.

Nobody in the history of the universe has been 'assigned' a gender at birth, let alone erroneously.

 

[untermensche]

Your words tell us about your mind.

Gender is all in the mind.

Raise boys wearing dresses with every boy around wearing dresses they will see wearing a dress as very manly.

 

[Ahab]

Of course, sooner than later it always comes down to this: "gender critical" implies revocation of genital privacy.

If my genitals are a private matter, then the sum total of information someone gets from me is "what they see", which is "expressed gender identity".

So to discriminate on what gender identities I may express on the basis of my genitals is discrimination against me on the basis of my genitals. It's a violation of my privacy and dignity to assume what my genitals are, so it seems to me that any such discrimination on the basis of gender identity is a violation of dignity and privacy.

This is BS. You can express yourself however you want, and more power to you. I don't think there should be any restrictions on what you wear, your mannerisms, or any personal expression whatsoever on the basis of your genitalia.

On the other hand, those personal expressions do not OVERRIDE biological sex, and they do not - and should not - give you (or anyone else) the right to ignore the sexual and bodily boundaries of other people. Just because you wish to dress like and comport yourself as a woman does not actually *make* you a woman, and your gender identity does not - and should not - give you the right to be naked in the presence of females who did not directly consent to your nudity. IT doesn't give you or anyone else the right to displace females, or to make females uncomfortable, or to rob females of our safe spaces or our dignity.

You can express whatever gender identity you feel yourself to be. I 100% support you in that. But your identity does not trump reality. Having the gender identity of a woman doesn't actually make you female.

Agree completely. The irony here is that by using gender to self-identify as a woman or a man, trans-people are reaffirming traditional gender roles. For example, womanhood is expressed by liking 'girlie things'. How regressive is that?

 

[Ahab]

Of course, sooner than later it always comes down to this: "gender critical" implies revocation of genital privacy.

If my genitals are a private matter, then the sum total of information someone gets from me is "what they see", which is "expressed gender identity".

So to discriminate on what gender identities I may express on the basis of my genitals is discrimination against me on the basis of my genitals. It's a violation of my privacy and dignity to assume what my genitals are, so it seems to me that any such discrimination on the basis of gender identity is a violation of dignity and privacy.

You seem to have a weird fixation on genitalia.

There are many other differences between the two sexes. However, if you want to limit this to only one difference you'd be better off focusing on gametes rather than the genitals.

 

[J842P]

I'm not making any exceptions.

Attacking trans people is attacking women. Even if we accept your argument that a person has no right to determine their own gender, the trans identity includes people erroneously assigned female at birth as well as those assigned male.

Emily Lake is not attacking transwomen. You again are just making things up whole cloth. I'm not sure why you think people cannot notice, or if you really believe the things you are saying.

 

[Rhea]

Deliberate misgendering is against the rules
This thread is closed, and the questionable posts hidden for “wet clean-up in aisle 6” and for a decision on whether there is anything not ad hom about the thread left to salvage.

While you wait to see if the discussion continues please remember the TOU required you to agree to debate the topic, not the person.