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It depends on whether or not a person has value beyond their ability and willingness to reproduce.

Assume that a person’s value resides solely upon their ability/willingness to continue their genes in offspring. That still does not mean that their genes can only be further propagated by directly producing genetic offspring, i.e. mating. By helping to raise to reproductive age/childbearing age the genetic offspring of closely related family members, an individual actually IS supporting the continuation of their genetic line.
Yup. To truly understand evolution you need to understand humans are the means by which our DNA replicates. Evolution selects for the DNA, not for it's host.

And to add to my previous post about helping care for niblings, there's also the fact they serve as spare parents. Humanity evolved in an environment where there was no welfare system or the like, a kid who loses their parents dies. But looking at modern society people will generally take in their niblings rather than leave them to the foster care system--think they didn't do the same when it was take them in or leave them to die? Or consider the problem of hunter-gatherer societies--when it's time to move on a mother could carry one child. If she had more than one that couldn't walk that meant abandoning the extra unless someone else was available to carry the child.
This is an extremely anthropocentric perspective.
Well, as far as I can tell, we are discussing humans and human behavior.
Well... you seem to have missed a bit. Jarhyn and a couple of others are trying to argue that sex in humans is a spectrum of complicated spectruminess, and that male and female aren't actually real things, or at least they're not binary things, and that within all of that somewhere somehow, a person's completely subjective internal sense of how well they align with social stereotypes is what *really* makes them male or female, not their bodies or their reproductive role or anything else. It's all just what they believe about themselves that matters.
Within the general population, it is well established that not all individuals conform to XY or XX. There are a number of variations, the true proportion of those variations is unknown because very few of us have our DNA analyzed.

I do think that as far as functioning in society, it is more important whether one feels themselves to be male, female, neither male or female or both male or female than what external or internal sex organs are present. Medically, there are different implications depending on what sex organs are present, both externally and internally.

I personally believe that rigid norms as to what is considered male and what is considered female behavior or what are considered male or female attributes is artificially constructed and is damaging.
 
... From what I gather, she claims that they qualify as disorders because they are not what we evolved "for", and believes that allows, if not forces, us to ignore them in any objective description of the species. Because they are maladaptive mishaps of an error-prone biological mechanism that doesn't always end up with what was "intended" for us. Apart from the reek of teleology, the very same could be said about twins.

And homosexuals. Using the thinking offered, homosexual genes are errors because they lead to less reproductive success of the individual.
You appear to be assuming there are "homosexual genes".
It might only be epigenetic but they very likely exist because birth order is relevant.

(At least to the extent that homosexuality exists--I'm in the camp that thinks there's no such thing, we aren't wired for opposite-sex attraction or same-sex attraction, but for male attraction or female attraction. "Homosexuality" is when the attraction for your own gender is turned on, "heterosexuality" is when the attraction for the opposite gender is turned on. It makes a much simpler model that does a better job of explaining what we see in the real world.)
To confirm I am understanding this claim properly, you think that there is essentially an "attraction module" that may or may not be related to other "modules" in the same way noted in The Origin of the Species wherein some traits tend to co-vary, and this particular module is set to gravitate towards how one group or the other of society presents and broadly displays.

Then there's always the real world equivalent of Captain Jack Harkness, to whom most aspects of species and gender would be irrelevant if personhood, full education, equal power dynamics, and consent could be positively established.

I'm almost at that extreme. I would let a giant intelligent spider shove jizz up my nose with its palps and then make it run away as if I were going to eat it, if I had that sort of relationship with said spider.

I'm a fucking freak.
The conditions (that may or may not be disorders for any given person) are only a "disorders" assuming they cause "distress" to a specific, real person. Some condition causing such distress to 99.999% of all the people who have it still does not make it a disorder, because it is the distress, not the condition, that makes it a disorder.
Cancer is only a disease if the person with cancer thinks it's a disease. If even one person is okay with having cancer, then we totally can't call cancer a disease, because it's the distress not the condition that makes it a disease.

Did you feel the same way about covid? Did you take the view that we can't call it an infection, because some people weren't distressed by having it and weren't bothered by their very mild effects? Do you support people choosing not to vaccinate themselves or their kids because they don't see those illnesses as distressing?

She is begging the question that we ought consider them as disorders absent the validation of distress.
No, I'm referring to them as disorders because 1) medical science classifies them as disorders and 2) they have negative impacts on the health of the people who have those conditions.

Once again, YOU are the person rubbing your moralism all over this topic. YOU are the one with the religious faith, who sees disagreement as tantamount to heresy.
That’s a pretty repugnant way to think of variations in sexual attraction.

Differences in the extent to which one is sexually attracted to others and what type(s) of individuals one is attracted to is hardly a disease but a variation of sexuality.

Thinking of these naturally occurring variations in our species and in other species as diseased my itself be a mental health disorder and is certainly unattractive and based in ignorance,

In humans, sexual desire and expression is not limited to reproduction, desired or unfortunate consequence. Humans have sex with other humans for a variety of reasons, of which a desire to reproduce is only one. The desire to continue a sexual relationship extends past fertility and exists even if individuals are incapable of producing offspring.
Pretty much every organ originated in some way as a cancer that didn't kill the host, just to be clear.

The same things that make cancer possible make new traits possible. Oftentimes there is a fine line between a benign and a malignant tumor.

I actually said the specific words I said to my sister about her gender non-conforming child. I don't know how I can be any more effective in the world than what I present as first person advice to an actual parent of a real person who has some thoughts about gender.

The only thing I really care about is adults telling children they are "men", "women", "boys", "girls" because we do live in a society and those things have social meaning. It's especially bad when they force some chemical reality to reinforce that assignment.

I would let people decide that for themselves.

My niece decided to grow her beard, because yes, girls grow beards. I am so fiercely proud of her for that choice. I hope she grows a nice bushy beard. It's amazing!

This is the world I celebrate, though. It seems far easier to first reject gender and then decide what you like and don't for yourself, and what you will be and what that means to you if it isn't already apparent. If there are questions about this, they ought be considered independent of sex
 
Well, no, organs do NOT originate as some form of cancer. As organs develops the cells differentiate—they specialize. Normal cells, normal tissues, normal organs form structures and have boundaries. Heart tissue dies not developed into kidney tissue or brain tissue or intestinal tissue. Nor do cells of the heart ( themselves differentiated into various types) invade other structures nor do they split off and migrate to some other part of the body.

Cancer is a step-wise process where cells begin to de-differentiate. They lose their specialized characteristics and they lose their ability to sense the boundary of another cell and will invade that cell. They do not stay as part of whatever organized tissue they were when they were healthy—they migrate.
 
I'm almost at that extreme. I would let a giant intelligent spider shove jizz up my nose with its palps and then make it run away as if I were going to eat it, if I had that sort of relationship with said spider.
You must have really liked Project Hail Mary. :smile:
 
(At least to the extent that homosexuality exists--I'm in the camp that thinks there's no such thing, we aren't wired for opposite-sex attraction or same-sex attraction, but for male attraction or female attraction. "Homosexuality" is when the attraction for your own gender is turned on, "heterosexuality" is when the attraction for the opposite gender is turned on. It makes a much simpler model that does a better job of explaining what we see in the real world.)
WTAF? All you've done is swapped out sex for gender in your framing. So you reject "same-sex attraction" but you're okay with "same-gender" attraction? That's... silly. And there are a whole, whole, whole lot of lesbians out there who are very strongly opposed to your idea that they're not attracted to females, but instead are attracted to the performance of a set of social stereotypes.
That is totally not what he meant. The "male attraction or female attraction" bit referred to sex, not gender -- he's using "gender" in its old sense, when it was a synonym for sex. He's saying lesbians and gay males do not form a natural category with each other. Rather, what causes lesbians to be attracted to women is the same thing that causes straight men to be attracted to women; likewise, what causes gay men to be attracted to men is the same thing that causes straight women to be attracted to men. I've been seeing LP advance this hypothesis for years but haven't seen him provide much evidence for it; still, it's not intrinsically less plausible than the contrary hypothesis that what causes lesbians to be attracted to women is the same thing that causes gay men to be attracted to men. It's a legit scientific hypothesis so I'm suspending judgment pending further evidence.

Attraction to the performance of a set of social stereotypes appears to be a figment of ideologues' imagination, constructed out of what their mindless ideology implies people ought to be attracted to, as though "ought" had any bearing on attraction. It's an idea unrelated to any I've seen LP put forward.
 
Yup. To truly understand evolution you need to understand humans are the means by which our DNA replicates. Evolution selects for the DNA, not for it's host.

And to add to my previous post about helping care for niblings, there's also the fact they serve as spare parents. Humanity evolved in an environment where there was no welfare system or the like, a kid who loses their parents dies. But looking at modern society people will generally take in their niblings rather than leave them to the foster care system--think they didn't do the same when it was take them in or leave them to die? Or consider the problem of hunter-gatherer societies--when it's time to move on a mother could carry one child. If she had more than one that couldn't walk that meant abandoning the extra unless someone else was available to carry the child.
This is an extremely anthropocentric perspective.
Well, as far as I can tell, we are discussing humans and human behavior.
She's not wrong, though. Animals whose mothers died or abandoned them can get adopted by other females in countless mammal species; and it's not just by their own aunts. There's even one species where males have been observed to adopt unattached young. You guessed it: chimpanzees.
 
Well, no, organs do NOT originate as some form of cancer. As organs develops the cells differentiate—they specialize. Normal cells, normal tissues, normal organs form structures and have boundaries.
And when they don't you get NEW tissues forming new shapes.

Heart tissue dies not developed into kidney tissue or brain tissue or intestinal tissue.
Well, not usually, and usually the result is pretty bad, except when or if it isn't.

Nor do cells of the heart ( themselves differentiated into various types) invade other structures nor do they split off and migrate to some other part of the body.
Again, not generally, but sometimes they do.

Cancer is a step-wise process where cells begin to de-differentiate.
Well,.more it's a chemical process wherein some chemical process causes the cells to adopt different functionality. Generally, but not always, this is lethal.

They lose their specialized characteristics and they lose their ability to sense the boundary of another cell and will invade that cell. They do not stay as part of whatever organized tissue they were when they were healthy—they migrate.
Yes. And cells often migrate at particular early times in the body to great effect.

I would.maintain that the same.tjings that cause cancer do open the door to mutations and new expressions within the genome all the same.

Generally evolution is what happens when some mutation fails to actually be lethal like normal.
 
... Evolution is the ultimate when it comes to selfishness. ...
This ultimate selfishness can be hijacked by evolution itself (not consciously of course). Some species have evolved to a system where most of the offspring are sterile, and live their lives being slaves. Think bees and ants. Evolution has resulted in a situation among bees where most of the bees don't get to pass *their* genes along. Only the queen gets to pass her genes along, with contributions from whichever virile males she mates with. In bees, evolution has become so blatantly selfish, that genetic lineage is extremely narrow.
Funny story about that...
Worker bees and ants aren't enslaved -- they're actually pursuing their own genes' reproduction. Genetics works in a unique way in the wasp family, such that a female is more closely related to her sisters than she is to her own children. So the most efficient way for her to copy her genes into the next generation is to put her efforts into making sure the next queen will be her sister, which is to say, into helping her mother reproduce. I read that the whole queen/drone/sterile worker lifestyle evolved independently at least a dozen times: eleven times in the wasp family and once in the rest of the animal kingdom. (Termites.)
 
Thank you Captain Obvious. Do you have any reason to think your post is a substantive contribution to the discussion?
Anti-trans bigots are <rest snipped for irrelevance>
There are no anti-trans bigots in this thread. Any impression to the contrary you've formed is due entirely to your own openly displayed anti-infidel bigotry.
 
I for one don't believe she did. From what I gather, she claims that they qualify as disorders because they are not what we evolved "for"
No. They are disorders because they cause deleterious outcomes for those who have those conditions.
Same as having twins in a species where the young are so large and so heavily dependent that that's more likely to kill both infants and the mother than for both to survive. Yet any description of the human reproductive system and strategy is incomplete without the datum that we have 0.5-1% twin pregnancies.
They present with actual fucking harm experienced by the people who have them. In some cases the negative health issues are fairly obvious (such as with Kallman Syndrome, where there's a significant risk of osteoporosis and a host of other conditions), some are less obvious and largely present as sterility.
Sterility counts as "actual fucking harm" only in the case of people who want kids. Unless by "actual fucking harm" you mean "an actual fucking reduced inclusive fitness".
You're mixing two topics here. Disorders appear in any number of species, in any number of situations, and are generally based on the deleterious nature of the conditions on the individual with that condition. This is a separate issue from my discussion of the nature of sex.

Sex is an evolved mechanism present in most reproductive species. Some few species do not reproduce sexually, they reproduce via division (bacteria, for example) or via more complex "mating sets" like many algaes. But a huge number of species - especially vertebrates - reproduce sexually. That method of reproduction is the product of evolution. Way, way, wayyyyyyy back hundreds of millions of years ago, our ancestral species evolved so that reproduction occurred as a result of the merging of two different sized gametes. The two gametes have different roles in the creation of offspring, and those gametes place different demands on the bodies that produce them. As a result of those different demands, these species that reproduce via two different sized gametes (called anisogamous species) evolved different anatomical structures and processes. While the anatomies themselves differ from species to species, what is universal is that within any anisogamous species, we can observe that one body type has evolved to support the production of small motile gametes (sperm), and a different body type has evolved to support the production of large sessile gametes (ova).
Only if you wear your normative-teleological glasses. What has evolved is a network of genes, mechanisms and triggers for the development of the gonads and genitals that are largely shared between the sexes, a subset of which is responsible for - usually - steering the development towards one of two prototypical realisations. You could argue that the reason this system evolved is that those two prototypes are efficient at bringing each others gametes into contact and providing the environment for the fertilised ovum to complete its development to the point where it can survive outside the womb in an environment close to what our ancestors were exposed to, but that doesn't change the fact that what has evolved is the system as a whole.

Evolution doesn't design features from scratch an merge them to the production branch only when they have been thoroughly tested. Evolution takes what it has and tweaks a few parameters until it finds a local optimum, a point at which no adjacent point has overall better results, and runs with it. Furthermore, no gene or even high level trait operates in isolation, they are embedded in a network of other genes and a bagful of epigenetic and environmental factors (shake well), and what constitutes a local optimum is dependent on the specifics of the environment. Sometimes, often, the local optimum predictably produces individuals with a less than ideal configuration at a certain rate. The textbook example of this (because of its simplicity, where basically only one gene is involved) is the sickle cell trait. If you have one copy of the variant gene, it gives you increased resistance to malaria, if you have two, it gives you the sickle cell disease. The result is a stable ratio of a variant that can cause a disease not because of an incomplete adaptation but as the local optimum in the environment. The same can be said for twin births: Presumably evolution could produce a variant of any of the genes involved in the operation of the follicle stimulating hormone which lowers its production or its efficiency to the point were twin births become excessively rare - but it doesn't because doing so would increase the number of cycles skipped entirely and reduce overall fertility so much so that the damage done by an occasional twin birth is outweighed. Evolution presumably could twist and tweak the levels of a messenger protein involved in the maturation of the gonads such that literally every XX individual develops functional ovaries, but with the background noise of variation in the dozens of other genes involved and of epigenetic and environmental factors, any easy way to do that would probably increase the number of infertile male offspring. So, while what drives the evolution of the reproductory apparatus in humans is the complimentary nature of male and female gametes, and the ability of the male anatomy to deliver theirs to where the female anatomy helps it to mature, the outcome of that selection isn't half of the population as perfect incubators and the other half as perfect inseminators. That's just not how biology works. The outcome of that evolution is, in humans, a range of variation with two peaks at two phenotypes that are mutually compatible in the production of offspring, but see bees for a very different outcome.

We have observed that even when the individual does not actually produce gametes, they still conform to one of those two basic anatomical structures. We can also note that no other body type has evolved - there is no other distinct phenotype that has ever been observed within anisogamous species.

We have definitely observed that the growth of those phenotypes can be derailed, can display incomplete or ambiguous development, can even in some very rare cases display a mixture of typically male and typically female elements. But it is also clear in those cases that there are deleterious effects from those developments, often including the inability to reproduce. It's also clear that such conditions aren't within the range of normal range of human development. And it's abundantly clear to anyone without an ideological axe to grind that these are not evolved phenotypes in and of themselves.
You mean they were not "intended"? They are not what drives the selection? Yeah, so? That doesn't make them go away.
Some people wish to argue that these conditions are either unique sexes of their own, or that they indicate that sex is "bimodal" or "a spectrum". Those arguments are flawed, and demonstrate a considerable lack of understanding of the process of evolution as well as the nature of sexual reproduction across all mammals, all birds, nearly all vertebrates, a huge portion of arthropods, and a whole lot of plants.

Regarding the remainder of your post, I will once again reiterate that evolution has no intent, no objective, it does not select. Evolution is a process, a mechanism. It's a gigantic pachinko machine played out over millions of years.
That right there in the last paragraph is why breaking down the range of variation of a species into "normal" and "abnormal", and categorising it into "evolved phenotypes" and "disorders" is nonsensical. Evolution has given us largely shared developmental trajectories for male and female gonads and genitals that usually produces either one or the other but is prone to produce intermediate forms at a low but non-zero rate when a part of it is disturbed by environmental factors or when an assortment of usually benign variants of seemingly unrelated genes conspire to shift the trajectory. Everything about those less frequent outcomes is the product of evolution.
 
Thank you Captain Obvious. Do you have any reason to think your post is a substantive contribution to the discussion?
Anti-trans bigots are <rest snipped for irrelevance>
There are no anti-trans bigots in this thread. Any impression to the contrary you've formed is due entirely to your own openly displayed anti-infidel bigotry.
It is transparent anti-trans bigotry when someone says trans people have no right to make timely decisions about their hormones and what these will be allowed to do to their bodies.

Now, you have accused a few posters of commenting about people when they clearly instead commented on behavior and you stepped/shoved yourself and Emily onto those spotlights being shone.
 
Well, no, organs do NOT originate as some form of cancer. As organs develops the cells differentiate—they specialize. Normal cells, normal tissues, normal organs form structures and have boundaries.
And when they don't you get NEW tissues forming new shapes.

Heart tissue dies not developed into kidney tissue or brain tissue or intestinal tissue.
Well, not usually, and usually the result is pretty bad, except when or if it isn't.

Nor do cells of the heart ( themselves differentiated into various types) invade other structures nor do they split off and migrate to some other part of the body.
Again, not generally, but sometimes they do.

Cancer is a step-wise process where cells begin to de-differentiate.
Well,.more it's a chemical process wherein some chemical process causes the cells to adopt different functionality. Generally, but not always, this is lethal.

They lose their specialized characteristics and they lose their ability to sense the boundary of another cell and will invade that cell. They do not stay as part of whatever organized tissue they were when they were healthy—they migrate.
Yes. And cells often migrate at particular early times in the body to great effect.

I would.maintain that the same.tjings that cause cancer do open the door to mutations and new expressions within the genome all the same.

Generally evolution is what happens when some mutation fails to actually be lethal like normal.
Cancer is the RESULT of mutations. Cancer is cells unregulated and uncontrolled. Cancer cells can and often DO continue to mutate. I think of cancer cells as 'crazy' because they no not abide by the usual 'rules' governing cell growth. They are also immortal and do not undergo apoptosis.

When I wrote above that heart cells do not become kidney cells, etc. I was referring to normal, non-cancerous cells in normal in vivo conditions. We HAVE learned how to stimulate one kind of cell to become a different type of cell. However, we have yet to 'teach' a cell to duplicate and form a separate organ or separate type of organ, even if we can stimulate it to form different tissue.

Cells differentiate very early in embryonic development. Yes, new blood vessels can and do form under certain conditions in mature, fully grown individuals, usually to compensate for blood vessels that have been blocked or damaged. Angiogenesis does occur when heart arteries are blocked, for instance but usually not sufficiently to take over the function of blocked cardio vessels. This is why we need stents or bypass surgery to correct blocked arteries and to continue living.
 
Well, no, organs do NOT originate as some form of cancer. As organs develops the cells differentiate—they specialize. Normal cells, normal tissues, normal organs form structures and have boundaries.
And when they don't you get NEW tissues forming new shapes.

Heart tissue dies not developed into kidney tissue or brain tissue or intestinal tissue.
Well, not usually, and usually the result is pretty bad, except when or if it isn't.

Nor do cells of the heart ( themselves differentiated into various types) invade other structures nor do they split off and migrate to some other part of the body.
Again, not generally, but sometimes they do.

Cancer is a step-wise process where cells begin to de-differentiate.
Well,.more it's a chemical process wherein some chemical process causes the cells to adopt different functionality. Generally, but not always, this is lethal.

They lose their specialized characteristics and they lose their ability to sense the boundary of another cell and will invade that cell. They do not stay as part of whatever organized tissue they were when they were healthy—they migrate.
Yes. And cells often migrate at particular early times in the body to great effect.

I would.maintain that the same.tjings that cause cancer do open the door to mutations and new expressions within the genome all the same.

Generally evolution is what happens when some mutation fails to actually be lethal like normal.
When cells migrate to other parts of the body in ways they are not intended to do, it is called metastasis, a stage of cancer.

When cells stop behaving the way they have developed free fisted, that is developed specifically to behave: that is a feature of cancer.

If cells begin to invade other cells and tissues, this is a feature of tumor cells, very often cancer cells.
 
It is transparent anti-trans bigotry when someone says trans people have no right to make timely decisions about their hormones and what these will be allowed to do to their bodies.
Nonsense.
There are lots of choices we don't let kids make. From sex to credit card contracts, lots. It's not anti-trans bigotry to protect kids from themselves and predatory adults around them.
Tom
 
It is transparent anti-trans bigotry when someone says trans people have no right to make timely decisions about their hormones and what these will be allowed to do to their bodies.
Nonsense.
There are lots of choices we don't let kids make. From sex to credit card contracts, lots. It's not anti-trans bigotry to protect kids from themselves and predatory adults around them.
Tom
And yet again you drag analogically dissimilar things in from the thing we are discussing, invalidating your opinions through the invalidity of the metaphor.

It is not "protecting kids from themselves" nor "protecting them from predatory adults", or else protecting one child from testosterone-based puberty would mean an obligation to protect all children from testosterone-based -puberty.

That particular view reeks of the naturalistic fallacy in the implicit assumption that the gonads are "correct" for being as they are when gonads do not have any consciousness of correctness as they contain no brains and communicate no nuance.
 
Anti-trans bigots are <rest snipped for irrelevance>
There are no anti-trans bigots in this thread. Any impression to the contrary you've formed is due entirely to your own openly displayed anti-infidel bigotry.
It is transparent anti-trans bigotry when someone says trans people have no right to make timely decisions about their hormones and what these will be allowed to do to their bodies.
Don't be ridiculous. It is transparent paternalism. To be anti-trans bigotry it would have to be limited to trans people and it would have to be motivated by hostility rather than by not believing it's in the person's best interests. Do you seriously imagine the people you accuse of anti-trans bigotry would allow underage jocks to make timely decisions about their steroid levels and what these will be allowed to do to their muscle mass?

Now, you have accused a few posters of commenting about people when they clearly instead commented on behavior and you stepped/shoved yourself and Emily onto those spotlights being shone.
Just because Politesse is fond of making his trumped-up disinformational ad hominem attacks on dissidents by means of sly smarmy insinuation doesn't mean the rest of us are taken in by the thin veil of implausible deniability. Even if you are.

Nonsense.
There are lots of choices we don't let kids make. From sex to credit card contracts, lots. It's not anti-trans bigotry to protect kids from themselves and predatory adults around them.
Tom
And yet again you drag analogically dissimilar things in from the thing we are discussing, invalidating your opinions through the invalidity of the metaphor.

It is not "protecting kids from themselves" nor "protecting them from predatory adults", or else protecting one child from testosterone-based puberty would mean an obligation to protect all children from testosterone-based -puberty.
And yet again you fall prey to a map-territory fallacy. Your choice to give both what happens to a boy spontaneously and what happens to a girl given cross-sex hormones the same label -- "testosterone-based puberty" -- has no magical power to make the two processes the same thing.
 
And yet again you drag analogically dissimilar things in from the thing we are discussing, invalidating your opinions through the invalidity of the metaphor.
Oh please.
I remember you comparing sex segregated public restrooms to race segregated bank machines.
Tom
 
And yet again you drag analogically dissimilar things in from the thing we are discussing, invalidating your opinions through the invalidity of the metaphor.
Oh please.
I remember you comparing sex segregated public restrooms to race segregated bank machines.
Tom
If you wish to find the exact argument I used and attempt to invalidate the metaphor actually referenced rather than the straw man you are putting together, maybe we can talk. Right now it's not the season for tu quoque, at least not yet.

Now do you have some answers as to my point about why these that you bring are invalid, or are you going to just keep prevaricating?
 
If you wish to find the exact argument I used
If you think I care enough about your ideological purity to go through your thousands of word salad posts to find the one you made on that subject, you're very wrong.
I don't.
Tom
 
If you wish to find the exact argument I used
If you think I care enough about your ideological purity to go through your thousands of word salad posts to find the one you made on that subject, you're very wrong.
I don't.
Tom
Then quit making claims about what I said. We are discussing right now your specific prevarication about the analogical applicability of your "letting children choose their hormones through puberty is the equivalent letting them adults rape children" bullshit.
 
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