• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Gender Roles

Legislation based on "biological sex" can only be enforced by the involuntary violation of women's privacy and bodily autonomy. Without the cooperation of the accused, there is no way to "prove" that a person was born male or female, except by non-consensual exposure of their body, or non-consensual requisition of bodily samples.
This is some postmodern philosophical bullshit, Poli.

Humans are sexually dimorphic. At the end of the day, sex is defined based on the type of reproductive system a person has. But that's far from the only way to discern a person's sex. There are a plethora of secondary and sex-correlated traits that are obvious and apparent in the vast majority of cases. FFS, do you really think that nobody at all has any idea whether Jason Momoa is a male or a female? It's all just a guess in your mind? That's just downright rhetorical misdirection and intentionally misleading argumentation.
The vast majority is not the totality. The distribution is extremely bimodal but intermediate states do exist.
No, they do not. Not in humans. There is no third type of reproductive system that produces a third type of gamete. There is no reproductive system that has evolved to support the production of a sperg. There is no intermediate state of sex in humans, nor in any mammal at all.

Some secondary sex characteristics can be bimodal if you plot both males and females on the same axis without separating the population. On the other hand, sex itself is not bimodal. Sex is binary - male and female. That we might sometimes in extraordinarily rare situations have difficulty deciding which category an individual falls into without doing further investigation doesn't change that.
And note that there's no big evolutionary problem with mental attributes not matching up with physical ones. Homosexuality simply doesn't have enough pressure to breed itself out (and might even be being selected for--later in the birth order increases the odds of homosexuality. It could easily be that once you've had some kids providing spare parents is reproductively advantageous.) Why would non-conforming gender breed itself out, either? Especially in times past where things were more about practical than desires.
Feelings and personality traits aren't sex.
 
We were already accepting of transsexual people.

The problem we have now is different. The problem is that within the last decade or so, the entire paradigm shifted so that it's now based only on a person's declaration that they feel transgender. Now, we end up with people who are obviously male in female spaces - and they don't pass well, they're frequently not even trying hard to pass, and even more than that - they domineeringly demand that we MUST accept them without question. Now we're in a situation where LITERALLY any man on the fucking planet has been given free access to any female space and women are no longer allowed to question them or to tell them to leave. We're in a situation where any man at all can literally toss on some fucking lipstick, waltz into the female side of a nude spa with his dick a swinging... and if women feel uncomfortable with this, women are told that they're bigots who need to be reeducated and just accept that the dude with the semi sitting in the spa next to you is just as much of a women as you are.

Do you not get the problem with this? Do you not see the shift that has happened?
1) You think you knew the situation. And note that that applies to bathrooms, not changing rooms.

2) Basically what you're objecting to here is people not playing the role adequately.
What I'm objecting to is the gigantic loophole that this "accept whatever people say about themselves as unerringly always true no matter what" policy produces. What I object to is this policy that lets men do whatever the hell they want to do, over the objections of women, just because they want it.
 
Plenty of argument has been made to demonstrate than "man" and "woman" are social concepts only loosely linked to physical realities, and that even sex is a pure statistical concept that is not prescriptive to any reality of binaries.
Plenty of arguments have been made. None of them have been successful.

Man and woman can in some cases be viewed as social concepts, but they're not "only loosely linked to physical realities", they're extremely tightly linked to physical realities. Sex is not a "pure statistical concept" it's the observable result of millions upon millions of years of evolution that has resulted in all mammals, all birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates, as well as most insects and plants being anisogamous species the leverage two different-sized gametes to reproduce.
 
Someone is posting without searching first. I hope they read this Wikipedia link.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Singular they, along with its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (also themself and theirself), is a gender-neutral third-person pronoun. It typically occurs with an indeterminate antecedent, in sentences such as:
...
Which part of "indeterminate antecedent" didn't you understand?
I'm going to go with "core concept"
1bcn0s.jpg
 
It's never women insisting this - it's always males who are demanding that if women don't submissively accept any male who says they have gendery feels as being just as much a women as they are then we're hurting women.
Are you... seriously denying the very existence of non-bigoted women? I assure you, not every woman is a 19th century schoolmarm. ...

Are you denying the very existence of women who want a man free place for personal business?
Obviously not. Everyone knows that trans exclusionary feminists exist, they are as loud and public about their beliefs as a person can be. But no faith group should be allowed to conduct the affairs of others.

The longer you talk to a "classical liberal", the less liberal their views turn out to actually be. Ever notice that?
"Progressive" liberals like you and Jarhyn I find even more so.
Tom
I guess answering one cheap shot with another is fair enough, but I assure you that my ingroup's liberty, democratic rule, and individual franchise sit at the very center of my political philosophy. No one has a right to tell someone else what they are... They are free to do as they like within their congregations or in their kitchens, but not in a public sociology class.
FIFY.

You evidently think you have a right to tell Emily and women who think like her what they are -- that they're 19th century schoolmarms and that they're a faith group. And so you do -- that goes with the whole First Amendment thing. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but your outgroup have free speech rights too. As painful as it must be for you, everyone has a right to tell someone else what they are -- that goes with the whole First Amendment thing too. And, while it's apparently offensive to the mindset of progressives who want academia to be their wholly-owned church, your outgroup are even allowed to openly disagree with you in a public sociology class. Progressives are a faith group; you are correct that faith groups should not be allowed to conduct the affairs of others.

Liberty-for-me-but-not-for-thee is a view that isn't "actually" liberal. Theocrats are not liberals and are rarely competent to recognize liberal views. "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
 
It seems to me your analogy breaks down here. When I say I "went to Europe", that does not set my audience off searching for a city other than Paris. The whole reason saying "they" might set my audience off searching for a different antecedent is precisely because using "they" on a specific referential entity known to both hearer and speaker to be singular and male causes a grammatical mismatch, not just incompletely collaborative communication. That's not just based on my own grammatical intuition -- the Lagunoff dissertation you linked backs me up on this. Using "they" for such an antecedent is not English.
Self-fulfilling prophecy.

They is "wrong" because the referent is known to be male? The whole point of "they" is that they aren't male!
If the referent is know to be not male, the referent would be referred to as "she".
 
The longer you talk to a "classical liberal", the less liberal their views turn out to actually be. Ever notice that?
"Progressive" liberals like you and Jarhyn I find even more so.
Tom
I guess answering one cheap shot with another is fair enough, but I assure you that liberty, democratic rule, and individual franchise sit at the very center of my political philosophy. No one has a right to tell someone else what they are or what they are allowed to be.
Perfectly fair. On the other hand, no one has a right to tell everyone else that they have to accept what a person says they are regardless of observable evidence to the contrary, and no one has a right to demand that all other people surrender their own rights in order to grant special privileges to some few.

No one ever granted Christian theocrat types (or atheistic fools who thoughtlessly and self-defeatingly enforce their cultural views) an unchecked right to police the social identity of others. They have done nothing to earn or justify such a role, and no one is ever going to volunteer to give it to them. Throwing science in the dustbin so as to make way for their unique cultural views on masculinity and femininity is not the role or purpose of a democratic government. They are free to do as they like within their congregations or in their kitchens, but not in a public sociology class.
Since none of those seem to be participating in this discussion, I suggest you take this line of argument someplace else.
 
It is not hateful to acknowledge that sex is real and material, nor to recognize that we have eons of discrimination and oppression on the basis of that very real and material sex, and to understand that there is a conflict between the wants of some transgender people and the dignity and safety of women.
No, it's hateful to spew hate at a minority group. Grow up.
 
Someone's "sex" being "real" and "material" does not make it the case that the "sex" is perfectly or cleanly or consistently "male" or "female", or even in majority "male" or "female". The statistical modes are not explanatory, they and they are only as descriptive insofar as someone happens to physically conform such a mode.

For people with features that are not conformed completely to one mode or the other (arguably literally everyone), describing someone as one sex or the other will always be inaccurate to some degree.

In order to make real decisions on the basis of real qualities real people have, you have to look at the specific qualities. There's no shortcut around doing so.
 
It is not hateful to acknowledge that sex is real and material, nor to recognize that we have eons of discrimination and oppression on the basis of that very real and material sex, and to understand that there is a conflict between the wants of some transgender people and the dignity and safety of women.
No, it's hateful to spew hate at a minority group.
I haven't spewed any hate.
No U!
 
You got me drifting off into a lot of general remarks about language. If you want to keep this focused on English pronouns, do a text search for "Back on topic".
The words you're trying to drag kicking and screaming out of my mouth ... are not "plain and common English". They're Newspeak. English doesn't have words for the meaning I meant to convey so I pulled in a language that does. ...
... linguistics is what I have a degree in. And from a linguistic perspective, it's clear that singular "they" is at least as old as Modern English.
Not so clear...
A bit imprecise. What really seems to be going on is not that there's a homophone of plural "they" that's marked for the singular, but that "they" is underspecified for number. That's an unusual state of affairs, but English number agreement is independently known to be unusual. There's few if any other languages where the 3rd person singular is the only place in the verbal paradigm that usually shows visible concord. The exact opposite is much more common: the 3rd Sg typically has no agreement marker where the other slots in the paradigm do have one, or had the phonologically lightest marker.

What I'm saying is: there probably is no "singular they" in English, in the sense of a separate word that that is marked for singular and happens to sound and spell the same as another word that is marked for plural. There probably isn't a "plural they" either. There is only one "they" which is unspecified for number, gender and specificity. Its usage where it picks up a (grammatically and/or) semantically singular antecedent is restricted by the "Elsewhere principle", or by the convention of using the most restricted whose specifications don't produce a mismatch. A grammatical example would be English verbal inflection: it's not parsimonious to suggest there a five different, lexically distinct, verb endings in the present indicative and another six in the subjunctive that all happen to be homophonous, i.e realised as a null suffix. Its much more plausible that English main verbs really only have two endings, one that's specified for 3rd person singular indicative and one that's fully unspecified.
That's a fascinating hypothesis but I doubt if its parsimony can be evaluated by examining Modern English without taking into account the history of how the rest of Old English's case endings were lost.
Niko Tinbergen and his four questions again. Of course nobody ever consciously decided that only marking 3/sg/indicative and leaving the other slots unmarked is good enough. That's the result of general forces, or if you will selective pressures - people being lazy enunciators; hearers failing to every time correctly identify what the speaker *meant* to say when they slur their posttonal syllables - especially maybe speakers with little prior exposure to the language and poorly specified expectations of what *should* be there, such as toddlers everywhere or Norse/French settlers or residual Brythonic speakers in medieval England; counteracted by the pressure to avoid ambiguities where they can lead to misunderstandings etc.

None of that is however part of the input based on which speakers of English in the 21st century (or for that matter in the 16th) formed their hypotheses about how English works. Everyone who saw it happen in real time is long dead. There is no timeless platonic Essence of English of which Modern and Old English are just shades under different light. Early 21st century English is what all and only what can be produced by one of the many mental grammars its speakers hypothesised to explain the output of the generation before them. In other words, English is, in a very real sense, the aggregate of the hypotheses its speakers formed during acquisition, based on what English did a generation ago. The kind of linguistic hypotheses toddlers form and the ones professional linguists do possibly, probably, are very different, but we know this about toddlers': they ignore all and any data from Old English. If language learners don't base their hypotheses about the English inflectional system on data from Old English, doing so would only reduce the likeliness of finding a halfway realistic model.
And I think pursuing it will take us far afield; we should be able to settle our current dispute on narrower grounds.

A loose analogue outside of grammar could be how you usually wouldn't say "I'm going to Europe" when the only planned stop is in Paris.

Here's an example from Shakespeare: "
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend."

And another from the King James Bible: "Let nothing bee done through strife, or vaine glory, but in lowlinesse of minde let each esteeme other better then themselues."

(Examples via https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=24504, there's more there)
Thanks for injecting some hard data. Let's see what it tells us...

It appears English does have a word for "a person who's sex not known or irrelevant, in the singular", and it's "they" (which just so happens to also be a word for "persons, plural" and for "inanimate objects, plural"),
That's not hard data; that's a theory. I.e., it's a testable hypothesis that's been proposed as an explanation for hard data. Testing it means answering three questions. How well does it predict actual in-the-wild examples of the usage in question? How badly does it falsely predict examples of the usage in question? And how does it compare with competing theories?

For the first question, Shakespeare? Check. Bible? Check.
Well, something we agree upon...
For the second question, all your examples are usage, so I went browsing for examples of non-usage in the wild. (...). I submit that Bibi's and Robert's maleness is irrelevant to what was being said about them. If the theory were correct then English-speakers would use "they/them/their" for singular antecedents a lot more than we do.
I refer to my extra-grammatical analogy further up: if you went to Paris for the weekend, you'd tell people "I went to Paris for the weekend", not "I went to Europe for the weekend", even if you weren't planning with following up with anything Paris specific - indeed even if you specifically bring it up to boast how you can still afford transatlantic weekend trips during this economic crisis, or to annoy someone who wants to ban "needless" air travel for ecological reasons, ie if the only relevant aspect of your trip is indeed that you went to Europe. Language expects you to be as specific as you can without being obtuse.
To add, sticking with the Paris/ Europe analogy: If you want to keep it unknown that it is Paris you went to (because its the Bush Jr years and "French fries" were just renamed and your conversation partner is a staunch Republican), or if you think mentioning it might cause confusion (because you expect them to not know where Paris is located), you're free to say that you "went to Europe". You wouldn't be lying by doing so. At best you'd be an incompletely collaborative communicator.
When talking about a specific referential entity known to both hearer and speaker to be singular and male, your audience expects you to use "he" - because all the boxes for the use of "he" are ticked, not because "they" would cause a grammatical mismatch.
And again, you wouldn't be lying by using "they", even though you might set your audience off searching for a different antecedent.
It seems to me your analogy breaks down here. When I say I "went to Europe", that does not set my audience off searching for a city other than Paris.
It does when the dialogue goes like this:
A: "I'm going to Paris next week"
B: "Funny that, I just came back from Europe yesterday"
i.e. when
The whole reason saying "they" might set my audience off searching for a different antecedent is precisely because using "they" on a specific referential entity known to both hearer and speaker to be singular and male causes a grammatical mismatch, not just incompletely collaborative communication. That's not just based on my own grammatical intuition -- the Lagunoff dissertation you linked backs me up on this. Using "they" for such an antecedent is not English.
Sure that's true for all Englishes? There's a high 9-digit number of English native speakers and a low 10-digit number of second-language speakers with varying degrees of proficiency. Many of them code-switch between different registers and use different grammars for each. The number of Englishes currently spoken is thus well into the 10 digits. None of those Englishes were formed by suckling at the tits of Mother England, they were all formed by individuals (mostly kids) making their hypotheses based on the output of other Englishes. Where that output is ambiguous and the edge cases that would help distinguish between different interpretations rare in any corpus, there's going to be different grammars producing similar output. If I tell you to continue the series 1-2-4, an answer of -8-16 is just as right as one of -7-11 (1+sum([0,n]) vs 2^n), though one may feel more natural.

It's not something linguists like to talk about, but this is a thing that actually happens: when you have some linguistic phenomenon which is, based on the most common cases, open to two competing explanations and you think you found some informative edge cases that can rule out one or the other, it sometimes happen that the speakers you consult to determine which it is fall into two camps, one confirming each of the hypotheses. Apparently it's not just grown linguists who found the corpus ambiguous...

It's not just linguistically naive speakers lacking eloquence either. When I was teaching linguistics to undergrads, there was one example from German I liked to bring up where different authoritative style guides and dictionaries declare each other's recommendation an unfortunately common error, and my classroom full of future high school German teachers would be roughly split in half in their preferences, but all feeling strongly about it - and the split wasn't even along any discernible geographic lines!
(Of course, someone immediately asked "which one really is correct?"; I guess it's an honor they'd take my word over Duden's, but the point of bringing it up was exactly that this isn't always a well-formed question.)

Back on the topic though: the 3rd person pronoun system most 20th century English speakers seem to have employed, was/is kind of an awkward one. On the one hand, the "they" of that dialect really dislikes referential contexts. On the other hand "he" and "she" both carry a gender feature. So arguably there really was no way of referring to a referential singular antecedent whose sex or gender you don't know or don't care to introduce into the discourse without violating some pronouns specification. According to Lagunoff (and you, apparently), saying "see that person over there in the shade? I find them spooky" is bad because "they" used for a referential antecedent, but if the shade is deep enough that you don't discern much at all about them, "he" or "she" also seems problematic, if only in the sense that it potentially leaves the hearer with the impression that you know more about that shady person than you really do. Now people have been claiming, under the general header of "generic masculine" that "he" really doesn't have a gender feature, that it's simply [+animate],[+singular], and it's common interpretation as referring to male persons is produced by the Elsewhere principle much as I explained the common [+plural] interpretation of "they". That is or was certainly true for some individual's grammars, but I doubt it is universally true in the grammars of English speakers of the second half of the 20th century. So quite plausibly, whether using "he" for an antecedent of unknown or irrelevant (in the sense of "I do not want to introduce it into the discourse", not in the sense of "it doesn't matter to what I'm going to say") sex constitutes a grammatical violation varies between speakers. Where it does, using "they" may well seem like the lesser grammatical evil for reasons of English grammar, not for reasons of political correctness.

I could go on more about the "generic masculine". It's much more of a topic in discussions about German than for English, for obvious reasons: In German, you can barely state a person's profession without potentially implying something about their gender, as we have different words for "baker"[+m] and "baker"[+f], plus articles and adjectival inflection that depend on gender. So "an experienced baker" can be "ein erfahrener Bäcker" or "eine erfahrene Bäckerin" and it gets really awkward when you want to include them in one phrase ("ein(e) erfahrene(r) Bäcker(in)", and that still doesn't tell you which paranthesised suffix goes with which). Of course, it would be useful if "ein erfahrener Bäcker" was fully gender-agnostic just like its English equivalent. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case: at least for me "der beste Bäcker der Stadt" is ambiguous between referring to "the best baker in town, who happens to be male" and "the best male baker in town" - just like "die beste Bäckerin der Stadt", for which also my primary interpretation, in the absence of context suggesting otherwise, would be "the best baker in town, who happens to be female" rather than "the best female baker in town". So by that interpretation, "Bäcker" and "Bäckerin" are parallel in that they both have a gender feature which can be interpreted outside the scope of the superlative. I'm telling you, it's mess. You have no idea how lucky you got for only having to deal with singular "they".

At any rate, it seems entirely plausible that, for entirely unpolitical reasons, grammars that pick between "he" and "they" based on that "he" can only be picked when the context gives a green light for a clear [+male] coexist with grammars that only allow "they" for non-referents, and the edge cases that distinguish between them in most common situations among cis-gendered people are rare enough that we never realise we're speaking different languages, so we get the impression that one of them is something the trans-lobby is pushing on us when it is indeed an ongoing intrinsic development of the English language.
For the third question, I don't know what competing theories linguists have considered, but the one that occurs to me is that "they" isn't being treated as an honorary singular pronoun after all; rather, the grammatically singular antecedents in these cases are treated as honorary groups.
(...) In some dialects of English, mostly British varieties, plural agreement with grammatically singular nouns is readily available. Constructions like "Parliament are discussing topic X tonight" or "the committed continue to be divided" (...)
You probably guessed this was supposed to read "the committee continue to be divided", but adding it just in case.
(...)
Why I'm saying they're probably not semantically plural is this: they allow distributive readings with singular predicates. Most speakers of English accept "every professor had a rebellious phase when they were a student" as a well formed sentence of the language (whether it's true is a different discussion). The analogue is not possible for unambiguously plural subjects: "all professors had a rebellious phase when they were a student" or "the professors..." seems to imply that they were collectively one student before splitting up into multiple professors. So the availability of "they" in "every professor had a rebellious phase when they were a student" does not predict plural-like behaviour in what predicates are available.
The converse is also true: you don't get collective readings with "each/every". "All (the) striking labourers assembled at the factory doors" is not like "every striking labourer assembled at the factory doors", in that only one of them is English
I don't think that's a counterexample, any more than your earlier "every one I speak to vanish as soon as they hear my voice" interpretation was. My hypothesis never involved any retrocausality, any notional pluralizing of a grammatically singular noun phrase before using "they" brings it on. You do get collective readings with "every" after an appearance of "they" has done its work. "Every striking laborer picked up a sign when they assembled at the factory doors." is English.

But never mind that. "Every professor had a rebellious phase when they were a student" is a problem for my hypothesis, and Lagunoff included other examples it doesn't account for. The theory that "they" pluralizes its antecedent doesn't predict the antecedent flipping back to singular; it predicts "Every professor had a rebellious phase when they were students." The tragedy of science: a beautiful theory slain by an ugly fact.

That said, though, my contention doesn't hang on any specific theory for accounting for "they" usage. It hangs on the demanded construct not being English -- on the nonoccurrence of "* Sodomize Bibi. They will kill as many people as they can get away with." The exact reason it isn't English hardly matters. Lagunoff's apparently correct explanation for why it isn't English makes my case for me every bit as much as my own explanation would have had it been correct.

When talking about a specific referential entity known to both hearer and speaker to be singular and male, your audience expects you to use "he" - because all the boxes for the use of "he" are ticked, not because "they" would cause a grammatical mismatch.
[+Plural] vs. [-Plural] isn't the only possible grammatical mismatch. The mismatch Lagunoff points out is [+Referential] vs. [-Referential]. Of course, as she says, the term “referentiality” has been used with many different definitions in many different contexts, making it problematic; I'm not sure what you mean by "referential". But in her usage, it is precisely the fact that "Bibi" is singular and referential that makes "they" unavailable for it. The boxes for "he" are ticked, yes; but the critical point is that the boxes for "they" aren't. All those examples of singular "they", from your corpus and hers, are nonreferential in Lagunoff's terminology.

(Of course "Alice and Bob think they love each other." is perfect English, and "Alice and Bob" is referential, so one might well dispute that "they" is marked [-Referential]. And you'd no doubt argue that two "they" homonyms, one [-Referential] and one [+Plural], is an unparsimonious hypothesis. Fine. Lagunoff's theory amounts to saying "they" is marked [-(Singular & Referential)]. "Bibi" is marked [+(Singular & Referential)]. That's the grammatical mismatch. Any objection to compound markings with "&" in them would be a map/territory fallacy.)
The argument can be made that plurals are never referential, always quantificational: That "Bob and Alice" isn't a fused referent referring to mental fusion of two human individuals, but more a shorthand for "everyone in the set I herewith describe by enlisting its members". If so, [-referential] could indeed be sufficient, and the availability for plural "referents" a side-effect of plural semantics. Similarly, "the <plural_noun>" is often analysed as quantificational: "the kids" doesn't refer to a multi-part entity with individual humans as parts, but quantifies over all contextually relevant kids. Although this may break down for examples like "the Beatles" or "the United States", which unhesitatingly take plural agreement and "they" as an anaphor. Probably someone has a theory that reconciles "I love the Beatles and every one of their albums" with "they is only marked [-referential]", but I can't say I have an answer off the top of my head.
 
Last edited:
Legislation based on "biological sex" can only be enforced by the involuntary violation of women's privacy and bodily autonomy. Without the cooperation of the accused, there is no way to "prove" that a person was born male or female, except by non-consensual exposure of their body, or non-consensual requisition of bodily samples.
This is some postmodern philosophical bullshit, Poli.

Humans are sexually dimorphic. At the end of the day, sex is defined based on the type of reproductive system a person has. But that's far from the only way to discern a person's sex. There are a plethora of secondary and sex-correlated traits that are obvious and apparent in the vast majority of cases. FFS, do you really think that nobody at all has any idea whether Jason Momoa is a male or a female? It's all just a guess in your mind? That's just downright rhetorical misdirection and intentionally misleading argumentation.
The vast majority is not the totality. The distribution is extremely bimodal but intermediate states do exist.
No, they do not. Not in humans. There is no third type of reproductive system that produces a third type of gamete. There is no reproductive system that has evolved to support the production of a sperg. There is no intermediate state of sex in humans, nor in any mammal at all.
You never replied to this post of mine, or did you?
 
Someone is posting without searching first. I hope they read this Wikipedia link.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Singular they, along with its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (also themself and theirself), is a gender-neutral third-person pronoun. It typically occurs with an indeterminate antecedent, in sentences such as:

"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Could you please let them know where they can get it?"[1]

"My personal rule is to never trust anyone who says that they had a good time in high school."[2]

"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."[3]

"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."[3]

This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they.[4][5][2] It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error.[6] Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the move toward gender-neutral language.[7][8] Some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing.[9][10] However, by 2020, most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun.[11][12][13][14]

In the early 21st century, use of singular they with known individuals emerged for people who do not exclusively identify as male or female, as ias in, for example, "This is my friend, Jay. I met them at work."[15]
I think the discussion between Bomb and me has transcended that Wikipedia article.
 
For people with features that are not conformed completely to one mode or the other (arguably literally everyone), describing someone as one sex or the other will always be inaccurate to some degree.
"Arguably literally everyone" is massively false. 99.9998% of humans on the planet are unambiguously either male or female, and can be accurately described as such.

So "arguably literally everyone" is clearly either male or female, not something in between in any way shape or form.

A female human being with small breasts is no less female than a female with large breasts. A male human being with tiny testes is no less male than a male with bovine-sized testes (although he would probably be happier and find it easier to sit down than the guy with the massive balls).
 
Legislation based on "biological sex" can only be enforced by the involuntary violation of women's privacy and bodily autonomy. Without the cooperation of the accused, there is no way to "prove" that a person was born male or female, except by non-consensual exposure of their body, or non-consensual requisition of bodily samples.
This is some postmodern philosophical bullshit, Poli.

Humans are sexually dimorphic. At the end of the day, sex is defined based on the type of reproductive system a person has. But that's far from the only way to discern a person's sex. There are a plethora of secondary and sex-correlated traits that are obvious and apparent in the vast majority of cases. FFS, do you really think that nobody at all has any idea whether Jason Momoa is a male or a female? It's all just a guess in your mind? That's just downright rhetorical misdirection and intentionally misleading argumentation.
The vast majority is not the totality. The distribution is extremely bimodal but intermediate states do exist.
No, they do not. Not in humans. There is no third type of reproductive system that produces a third type of gamete. There is no reproductive system that has evolved to support the production of a sperg. There is no intermediate state of sex in humans, nor in any mammal at all.
You never replied to this post of mine, or did you?
I don't know. But there's very little in there to reply to without writing a seventy page book about it. There are several assumptions in there that are inapplicable (for example, the assumption that an infertile male isn't male) and a whole lot of erroneous "ifs" that go from there (for example that a male with a penis to big to fit a normal female vaginal canal isn't a male, and that when he finds a woman with a canyon, he is magically turned into a male).

At the end of the day, no matter how much quibbling about intra-sex variations of primary sexual traits can be observed... that does not at all imply that there exists an inter-sex variation that is both functional and has clearly evolved within the context of sexual reproduction.

You use a lot of technical language - sometimes I can follow, sometimes I can't. I do what I can, but I've always been a fan of clear communication being more important in most cases. I try to only use technical jargon when there isn't a reasonable common language substitution available, or when the person I'm talking to shares the same jargon, or when the terms have been defined multiple times and I'm relatively confident that everyone involved understands them (like the term isogamous, which I use regularly, but which I've also defined multiple times throughout the discussion)

Anyway... The fact that males can have a variety of different sizes and shapes of penises doesn't result in a spectrum between penises and vaginas. Variations of features within the same sex doesn't support the fallacious argument that sex itself is a spectrum with male at one end and female at the other end and a continuous distribution of part-male-part-female people in between. Even the existence of some people whose development took a left turn at Albuquerque and ended up with something that is more difficult to classify doesn't support the argument that sex is a spectrum - no more so than the existence of children whose parents were exposed to thalidomide supports the fallacious argument that the number of limbs on humans is a spectrum.
 
sorry to disappoint you, but your outgroup have free speech rights too. As painful as it must be for you, everyone has a right to tell someone else what they are -- that goes with the whole First Amendment thing too.
I've not said otherwise. Emily has a right to be a bigot and even talk like one, but she does not have a "right" to have her opinions coddled to by others. If she thinks her regressive views have a place in public fora, she is free to pursue that prerogative exactly as far aa that can get her, and she should be ready to face backlash. Which, I'm pretty she is. Honestly, I think she'd be disappointed if everyone just agreed with her.
 
Legislation based on "biological sex" can only be enforced by the involuntary violation of women's privacy and bodily autonomy. Without the cooperation of the accused, there is no way to "prove" that a person was born male or female, except by non-consensual exposure of their body, or non-consensual requisition of bodily samples.
This is some postmodern philosophical bullshit, Poli.

Humans are sexually dimorphic. At the end of the day, sex is defined based on the type of reproductive system a person has. But that's far from the only way to discern a person's sex. There are a plethora of secondary and sex-correlated traits that are obvious and apparent in the vast majority of cases. FFS, do you really think that nobody at all has any idea whether Jason Momoa is a male or a female? It's all just a guess in your mind? That's just downright rhetorical misdirection and intentionally misleading argumentation.
The vast majority is not the totality. The distribution is extremely bimodal but intermediate states do exist.
No, they do not. Not in humans. There is no third type of reproductive system that produces a third type of gamete. There is no reproductive system that has evolved to support the production of a sperg. There is no intermediate state of sex in humans, nor in any mammal at all.
You never replied to this post of mine, or did you?
I don't know. But there's very little in there to reply to without writing a seventy page book about it. There are several assumptions in there that are inapplicable (for example, the assumption that an infertile male isn't male) and a whole lot of erroneous "ifs" that go from there (for example that a male with a penis to big to fit a normal female vaginal canal isn't a male, and that when he finds a woman with a canyon, he is magically turned into a male).
I didn't say any such thing though. I said that he's *infertile* and becomes fertile, which according to your logic, according to the exact argument you have used to bat intersex conditions from the discussion, seems to imply he was suffering a congenital disorder until he wasn't, without undergoing any intrinsic change.

This doesn't make him not male, or only makes your decision criteria for what defined a disorder and why should exclude them dem the discussion of sex not applicable.

That's problem for your analysis, not mine!
 
As opposed to the faith group that insists that if a male feels like he has a gendery soul then he is magically transformed into a female human being and nobody can tell the difference?
Yes, you are definitely opposed to that group. Thought that was obvious from your insulting tone?
If a male feels like he has a gendery soul, I am quite happy for him to wear a dress and heels, and to change his name to Annabelle. I truly don't care at all.

Gendery feelings don't supersede sex. I'm not opposed to the group, I'm opposed to the policies.

I completely support anyone of any sex dressing however they like, presenting and adorning themselves however they like. And in the majority of social situations where sex is not relevant, I think it's unconscionable for a person's (venue appropriate) presentation to be a barrier to their ability to participate in society. I absolutely do not think that it should prevent someone from being able to purchase or rent a home, or to acquire a job in the overwhelming majority of situations. I don't think it should be something that allows for abuse or harassment - not ever.

On the other hand, there are situations where sex is actually relevant. And in those cases, I oppose sex being tossed out a window in favor of gender presentation of professed gender identity. There's a limited set of situations in which I think it actually does matter:
Showers, changing rooms, spas, and similar spaces where people are nude
  • Prisons
  • Rape and domestic violence shelters
  • Elder care, nursing homes, and medical facilities where intimate care is being provided
  • Athletics
I don't think it's unreasonable to retain sex-specific approaches in those situations. And I think it's entirely unreasonable to demand that women must relinquish the sex-based restrictions on those spaces so that some males can use them on the basis merely of them saying that they identify as a woman.
 
And, while it's apparently offensive to the mindset of progressives who want academia to be their wholly-owned church, your outgroup are even allowed to openly disagree with you in a public sociology class
To this, on the other hand: the public has every right to expect science, not religion, in a science class. That is also a clause of the first amendment. The government does not and cannot endorse a Biblical view of womanhood over that which scientific consensus defines. You can teach "people in x group believe y", because that is a fact. You cannot teach those beliefs as facts. That is indoctrination, and the government is not supposed to take sides on inter-religious disputes.
 
Back
Top Bottom