Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Toni]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

 

[Politesse]

Finally: Should not everyone be able to expect to feel safe in showers and dressing rooms?

You mean, "the majority", right?

No, I mean EVERYONE.

Policies that target minorities as though they were a dangerous outgroup do not make them "feel safe", as a general rule.

 

[Jarhyn]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

People who are upset with it for the reasons you present, yes, they do.

If you think that the trauma of being assaulted by someone who looks some way, is sufficient to deny access to folks who look some way to spaces, then this is no different in my mind from those who make such arguments over the way of looking inherent to perceptions of race.

People have a responsibility to recognize while that person may have what they judge to be a penis, they are not the same person with what they judge to be a penis that did that to them.

There are drugs. There are therapies. You don't have to get over your fear of eating ice cream. People don't need to eat ice cream. You don't have to get over your fear of eating fruit, or of having feet in your face.

You DO have to make a good faith effort to get over your fear of people who look some way that they didn't choose, especially when they act in good faith to not do the things that made you hate people who look that way.

Said in other terms, from a corpus of writing I like by PirateAba, The Wandering Inn, perhaps mangled a bit as is from memory: "You are a goblin. Goblins kill humans. But you aren't the goblin that tried to kill me."

...If you can't accept that the people around you will behave like people, if you can't give them that chance, that's on you, and you have to sort that out. And yes, every person who distrusts "men" and decides to put that on trans women. Distrust them and drive them off and starve them out and push them away from your fire... when they earn it.

Invite them back...when they show you they are capable of and will continue to act like people, for the reasons people do.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

If we are saying a person's gender is defined by more than merely genitalia all the while including a "but", we'll need to determine where this definition applies and where it doesn't. Where are they going to be judged on dangly bits verses where they'll be judged by the character and identity. And then later ask ourselves if these boundaries make sense.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Finally: Should not everyone be able to expect to feel safe in showers and dressing rooms?

You mean, "the majority", right?

No, I mean EVERYONE.

Policies that target minorities as though they were a dangerous outgroup do not make them "feel safe", as a general rule.

Why should a person who is male on the outside, female on the inside, feel unsafe in a men's locker room? And should we not necessarily mistake belonging with safety?

 

[Toni]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

People who are upset with it for the reasons you present, yes, they do.

If you think that the trauma of being assaulted by someone who looks some way, is sufficient to deny access to folks who look some way to spaces, then this is no different in my mind from those who make such arguments over the way of looking inherent to perceptions of race.

People have a responsibility to recognize while that person may have what they judge to be a penis, they are not the same person with what they judge to be a penis that did that to them.

There are drugs. There are therapies. You don't have to get over your fear of eating ice cream. People don't need to eat ice cream. You don't have to get over your fear of eating fruit, or of having feet in your face.

You DO have to make a good faith effort to get over your fear of people who look some way that they didn't choose, especially when they act in good faith to not do the things that made you hate people who look that way.

Said in other terms, from a corpus of writing I like by PirateAba, The Wandering Inn, perhaps mangled a bit as is from memory: "You are a goblin. Goblins kill humans. But you aren't the goblin that tried to kill me."

...If you can't accept that the people around you will behave like people, if you can't give them that chance, that's on you, and you have to sort that out. And yes, every person who distrusts "men" and decides to put that on trans women. Distrust them and drive them off and starve them out and push them away from your fire... when they earn it.

Invite them back...when they show you they are capable of and will continue to act like people, for the reasons people do.

You realize that people who have been sexually assaulted deal with people who look like their attacker every single day, right?

Sometimes, too often, in fact, they share the same home and perhaps the same bed. I ate many dinners sitting right next to the person who tried to rape me. Who tried to kill me. Without blinking an eye at it. I did avoid being alone with them. I did ensure my little sister was never ever ever alone with him.

I avoided dating in high school, not because I was afraid of being assaulted by a date but because I was afraid some perfectly nice guy would put his arm around me and I’d deck him.

You have no idea how much women curtail their behavior every single day, even if they’ve never been assaulted.

I know it’s impossible for people reading this to see just how uncomfortable I feel bringing up this issue because I know it’s not a likely event. I am NOT suggesting that a trans person with a penis would be an actual danger. I’m not suggesting that a man would pretend to be trans in order to gain access to women’s locker rooms.
But whether it makes anyone feel bad or not, many/most women are going to be startled and very uncomfortable to unexpectedly find someone with a penis in the same locker room. If it is known that a trans woman with a penis is using the same facilities, a lot of women will avoid that facility. Even if they are happy to have them in their book club, as a next door neighbor, or teaching their kids’ classes.

Women are expected to make accommodations, to understand. To be ok with being made uncomfortable. We just need to get over it.

 

[Oleg]

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

 

[Oleg]

Women are expected to make accommodations, to understand. To be ok with being made uncomfortable. We just need to get over it.

A bunch of guys telling women what it means to be a woman. The patriarchy is unmatched.

 

[Toni]

Finally: Should not everyone be able to expect to feel safe in showers and dressing rooms?

You mean, "the majority", right?

No, I mean EVERYONE.

Policies that target minorities as though they were a dangerous outgroup do not make them "feel safe", as a general rule.

Why should a person who is male on the outside, female on the inside, feel unsafe in a men's locker room? And should we not necessarily mistake belonging with safety?

Oh, I can understand why they might feel unsafe or uncomfortable.

 

[Toni]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

If we are saying a person's gender is defined by more than merely genitalia all the while including a "but", we'll need to determine where this definition applies and where it doesn't. Where are they going to be judged on dangly bits verses where they'll be judged by the character and identity. And then later ask ourselves if these boundaries make sense.

So, yes, you mean women need to learn to live with it.

 

[Toni]

Finally: Should not everyone be able to expect to feel safe in showers and dressing rooms?

You mean, "the majority", right?

No, I mean EVERYONE.

Policies that target minorities as though they were a dangerous outgroup do not make them "feel safe", as a general rule.

I agree. It’s a difficult circumstance to navigate: how to make everyone feel safe and not stigmatized.

That doesn’t mean that women need to just get over it.

 

[TomC]

Women are expected to make accommodations, to understand. To be ok with being made uncomfortable. We just need to get over it.

The casual dismissal of women's concerns and feelings on this subject is extremely masculine, don't you think?

It sure looks that way to me.

Like it or not, men have a long history of being vastly more pervy and rapey than women. We, as a group, are a much bigger threat to women than vice versa. This despite the fact that 90% of us are far too well socialized to be any threat at all. Women have a deeply ingrained and very reasonable insecurity about having men in a few places, like public restrooms. Pretending that women are being unreasonable by wanting a man-free place for some personal business is rather the epitome of the culture of entitlement and victimhood.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

You mean: women need to learn to live with it.

If we are saying a person's gender is defined by more than merely genitalia all the while including a "but", we'll need to determine where this definition applies and where it doesn't. Where are they going to be judged on dangly bits verses where they'll be judged by the character and identity. And then later ask ourselves if these boundaries make sense.

So, yes, you mean women need to learn to live with it.

I suppose just the ones that don't want to if we want to simplify all these exchanges to snitty one-liners.

Each generation grows up with an evolving world view. Women working? Gays generally being quite open? This stuff evolved and dealt with a lot of people that didn't evolve, but were replaced by people who grew up with it as a matter of fact.

The question for society today and tomorrow is what are transgender people allowed to be and allowed to go. Where are their rights not superceding the rights of others? That women are generally going to be the fuzzier side of the lollipop really can't be avoided. It is what it is. So then we go back and try to determine how to accommodate all parties, their rights and privileges. Especially where there is overlap and conflict.

 

[Oleg]

Where are their rights not superceding the rights of others?

Is this the right of a grown man to shower naked at the gym with girls?

 

[Toni]

Women are expected to make accommodations, to understand. To be ok with being made uncomfortable. We just need to get over it.

The casual dismissal of women's concerns and feelings on this subject is extremely masculine, don't you think?

It sure looks that way to me.

Like it or not, men have a long history of being vastly more pervy and rapey than women. We, as a group, are a much bigger threat to women than vice versa. This despite the fact that 90% of us are far too well socialized to be any threat at all. Women have a deeply ingrained and very reasonable insecurity about having men in a few places, like public restrooms. Pretending that women are being unreasonable by wanting a man-free place for some personal business is rather the epitome of the culture of entitlement and victimhood.
Tom

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Fuzzier side of the lollipop?

I must have seen Some Like it Hot too many times.

Where are their rights not superceding the rights of others?

Is this the right of a grown man to shower naked at the gym with girls?

I mean, why are you even here? It is just one hyperbole, one strawman, one goalpost shift after the other. You seem to be allergic to discussions in good faith.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I mean, why are you even here? It is just one hyperbole, one strawman, one goalpost shift after the other. You seem to be allergic to discussions in good faith.

Well, that’s what they want. I just prefer that we be specific rather than employ disingenuous euphemisms.

Bullshit. The suggestion is that people want sexual predators in women's locker rooms. Which obviously no one wants.

 

[TomC]

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

I understand that.
I also understand that women have concerns that men just do not have on this subject.

The vast majority of the time, sex and gender really don't matter. Public facilities like this are one of the handful of exceptions.

And also, everyone has an option. Right next to the women's room is a men's. Nobody has to "just hold it". But preferring something doesn't give anyone the entitlement to ignore other people's feelings.
Tom

 

[Oleg]

I mean, why are you even here? It is just one hyperbole, one strawman, one goalpost shift after the other. You seem to be allergic to discussions in good faith.

Well, that’s what they want. I just prefer that we be specific rather than employ disingenuous euphemisms.

Bullshit. The suggestion is that people want sexual predators in women's locker rooms. Which obviously no one wants.

Does he have to be a sexual predator? TomC is right. It's a very male/masculine viewpoint that says women should be okay with naked men showering with them at the gym. The woman's concerns for safety and modesty are just disregarded.

 

[Toni]

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

I understand that.
I also understand that women have concerns that men just do not have on this subject.

The vast majority of the time, sex and gender really don't matter. Public facilities like this are one of the handful of exceptions.

And also, everyone has an option. Right next to the women's room is a men's. Nobody has to "just hold it". But preferring something doesn't give anyone the entitlement to ignore other people's feelings.
Tom

Again, I wasn’t talking about public restrooms which have stalls with doors in women’s bathrooms.

I can understand why a trans woman would not be comfortable in a men’s locker room and why they might feel unsafe. Trans women experience a disproportionate threat of violence. I don’t want that for anybody.