Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Toni]

First of all, you are conflating poor and black with committing crimes. If the last 6 years have demonstrated nothing, it should be that white people, especially those with any sort of wealth and power are just a lot less likely to be arrested and prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned for their crimes.

They have said no such thing. The fact remains the poor are far more likely to commit crime than the well to do--and when the well to do commit crime it's usually embezzlement or other non-contact crime.

1) The poor have a lot less to lose by being caught. The deterrence value is less.

2) Previously having been convicted tends to put people in a lower socioeconomic status and thus means that there will be more people of a criminal nature amongst the poor.

Secondly, a large portion of women and girls have experienced some degree of sexual assault at some point in their lives. One in four have been raped. Very few of the survivors of sexual assault are traumatized by seeing men on the streets, in schools and work places, in their homes. Hell, a lot of them still live in the same homes with their rapists. I frequently saw the person who attempted to rape me at family events. So get off that right now.

Which has nothing to do with the danger posed by someone in a restroom.

Being in a dressing room when one is undressed and showering or preparing to shower or getting dressed again and being confronted by someone with a penis in a space that is supposedly for women would be startling for most girls and women, even those who have never experienced sexual assault. It could be quite traumatizing to be so confronted with such an individual when one is in an extremely vulnerable position: unclothed, partially or totally, and in a space where one did not expect to see anyone male.

Nudity is only traumatizing to those taught to fear genitals. Hint: Nudists don't go around getting assaulted. We have no need to honor irrational fears.

Answer the question: How would your wife react if she unexpectedly found a stranger with a penis in the shower next to her?
How would you react if you walked into your home and found a stranger with a penis in the shower next to your wife?

Nudity is not the traumatizing issue here, Loren. It's a nude stranger with a penis in an unexpected place while you yourself are also unclothed.

Women who might be traumatized by other women's nudity tend to avoid places where they might encounter such. It's not likely to be traumatizing if they accidentally encounter a nude woman.

People who are in places where they expect to encounter people in various stages of undress are unlikely to be traumatized by encountering people in various stages of undress, including full nudity.

People who are in female only single sex spaces where they might be undressed/nude who encounter a naked person with a penis are not likely to think first: Oh, she must be a pre-surgical trans woman.

I am pretty certain if you encountered me next to you in a shower at the Y, you would not think that I must be a presurgical transman who had every right to be in that space. Your initial reaction would probably be closer to WTF??? And then: she must have dementia--get her out of here!

If you were a woman who had experienced sexual assault and encountered a naked stranger with a penis next to you, you would likely feel frightened, perhaps traumatized and not immediately think: This must be a presurgical trans woman and I just need to get over my fear of being raped again. Trust me. You would not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Personally, I don't think that anyone should be allowed to open carry, period.

I wouldn't categorically prohibit it, there are times when concealed isn't practical. Concealing long guns is generally not practical and you can't very well do on-body concealed carry while wearing a backpack. It's either an exposed holster or in your equipment. I would be glad of a law that restricted it to when it's not practical to carry concealed.

Second: Are you naked in these restaurants?

Huh? What's the relevance?

I'm pretty certain that if I were to walk into your shower at whatever gym you use, you'd be at the very least quite startled, even if I am a short, fat, old woman. Your immediate reaction might be to grab a towel. You'd probably contact management to see if someone should check on the obviously demented old lady who wandered into the men's locker room. If management threw up its hands and said there was nothing they could do, you might change gyms. Or maybe you'd learn to live with it.

My gym is the outdoors. That being said, if I were somehow in a gym and you walked in naked I would be a bit surprised but take no action. There would be no issue of learning to live with it--I wouldn't have a problem with it from the start. (And, yes, I have been in something akin to the situation. It surprised me when basically everyone stripped off completely to go swimming.)

Editing to add: For myself, I don't think it would bother me a lot if someone I knew was trans and in possession of a penis and/or testicles was in the same dressing room as myself. But I also think about my daughter, who lives in a big city, and who sometimes has to endure a lot of...unpleasantness from men on public streets. I think about the fact that she carries her keys in a certain way, carries pepper spray, carries a loud whistle. I think about the winter when she was still living in this college town and dressed the entire winter in the same pair of grubby baggy sweat pants, a men's winter jacket, boys' galoshes, and did not wear any make up or even really comb her hair and eventually stopped going out with friends because she was so tired of being hit on by random men. I think about promising my father that I would only stop at McDonalds to go to the bathroom on the 500 mile car trip home.

And how is this at all relevant? Your argument seems to add up to men are bad so women should have spaces protected from penises. It doesn't follow, nor is it more than an illusion of security. Like all the nonsense with the TSA that has missed every threat it's faced.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We need to learn to live with it. But that'll require a great deal of time. Also trust. Ultimately it should be based on identity and behavior. Lesbians aren't required to have their own changing room. But if one was observed enjoying the view, there would probably be consequences.

Accommodating the rights of transgenders in the locker is tricky because it isn't what we are used to and even when given time, it will never become something that is common, with transgenders not being a particularly common percent of the population.

Which is why I favor a men/women/any system. Let people see it doesn't cause problems and over time the lower costs will push society towards the any approach.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Finally: Should not everyone be able to expect to feel safe in showers and dressing rooms?

You mean, "the majority", right?

No, I mean EVERYONE.

Policies that target minorities as though they were a dangerous outgroup do not make them "feel safe", as a general rule.

Why should a person who is male on the outside, female on the inside, feel unsafe in a men's locker room? And should we not necessarily mistake belonging with safety?

Look at how many attacks there have been on trans people. We have a lot more examples of male on trans attacks than trans on female attacks. I'm not aware of any data that sorts this out by attacks in gender-specific spaces.

 

[Toni]

Personally, I don't think that anyone should be allowed to open carry, period.

I wouldn't categorically prohibit it, there are times when concealed isn't practical. Concealing long guns is generally not practical and you can't very well do on-body concealed carry while wearing a backpack. It's either an exposed holster or in your equipment. I would be glad of a law that restricted it to when it's not practical to carry concealed.

Second: Are you naked in these restaurants?

Huh? What's the relevance?

I'm pretty certain that if I were to walk into your shower at whatever gym you use, you'd be at the very least quite startled, even if I am a short, fat, old woman. Your immediate reaction might be to grab a towel. You'd probably contact management to see if someone should check on the obviously demented old lady who wandered into the men's locker room. If management threw up its hands and said there was nothing they could do, you might change gyms. Or maybe you'd learn to live with it.

My gym is the outdoors. That being said, if I were somehow in a gym and you walked in naked I would be a bit surprised but take no action. There would be no issue of learning to live with it--I wouldn't have a problem with it from the start. (And, yes, I have been in something akin to the situation. It surprised me when basically everyone stripped off completely to go swimming.)

Editing to add: For myself, I don't think it would bother me a lot if someone I knew was trans and in possession of a penis and/or testicles was in the same dressing room as myself. But I also think about my daughter, who lives in a big city, and who sometimes has to endure a lot of...unpleasantness from men on public streets. I think about the fact that she carries her keys in a certain way, carries pepper spray, carries a loud whistle. I think about the winter when she was still living in this college town and dressed the entire winter in the same pair of grubby baggy sweat pants, a men's winter jacket, boys' galoshes, and did not wear any make up or even really comb her hair and eventually stopped going out with friends because she was so tired of being hit on by random men. I think about promising my father that I would only stop at McDonalds to go to the bathroom on the 500 mile car trip home.

And how is this at all relevant? Your argument seems to add up to men are bad so women should have spaces protected from penises. It doesn't follow, nor is it more than an illusion of security. Like all the nonsense with the TSA that has missed every threat it's faced.

Your situation: everybody suddenly strips off to go skinny dipping isn't remotely analogous.

I'm almost certain your shower facilities at your gym is not outdoors. I'm pretty certain if you suddenly encountered a woman naked in your shower, you would be somewhat alarmed. Unlikely to be frightened or traumatized because unless I am mistaken you have never been raped by a woman.

Answer the question: HOW WOULD YOUR WIFE REACT IF SHE FOUND A NAKED PERSON WITH A PENIS IN THE SHOWER NEXT TO HER?

HOW WOULD YOU REACT IF YOU CAME HOME AND FOUND A NAKED STRANGER WITH A PENIS IN THE SHOWER WITH YOUR WIFE?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You realize that people who have been sexually assaulted deal with people who look like their attacker every single day, right?

Sometimes, too often, in fact, they share the same home and perhaps the same bed. I ate many dinners sitting right next to the person who tried to rape me. Who tried to kill me. Without blinking an eye at it. I did avoid being alone with them. I did ensure my little sister was never ever ever alone with him.

Which has nothing to do with the issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Women are expected to make accommodations, to understand. To be ok with being made uncomfortable. We just need to get over it.

The casual dismissal of women's concerns and feelings on this subject is extremely masculine, don't you think?

It sure looks that way to me.

Like it or not, men have a long history of being vastly more pervy and rapey than women. We, as a group, are a much bigger threat to women than vice versa. This despite the fact that 90% of us are far too well socialized to be any threat at all. Women have a deeply ingrained and very reasonable insecurity about having men in a few places, like public restrooms. Pretending that women are being unreasonable by wanting a man-free place for some personal business is rather the epitome of the culture of entitlement and victimhood.
Tom

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

In other words, you just shot down your own argument with regard to toilets.

 

[Toni]

You realize that people who have been sexually assaulted deal with people who look like their attacker every single day, right?

Sometimes, too often, in fact, they share the same home and perhaps the same bed. I ate many dinners sitting right next to the person who tried to rape me. Who tried to kill me. Without blinking an eye at it. I did avoid being alone with them. I did ensure my little sister was never ever ever alone with him.

Which has nothing to do with the issue.

Your feelings have nothing to do with the issue. Your entitlement, your privilege IS THE FUCKING ISSUE.

 

[Toni]

Women are expected to make accommodations, to understand. To be ok with being made uncomfortable. We just need to get over it.

The casual dismissal of women's concerns and feelings on this subject is extremely masculine, don't you think?

It sure looks that way to me.

Like it or not, men have a long history of being vastly more pervy and rapey than women. We, as a group, are a much bigger threat to women than vice versa. This despite the fact that 90% of us are far too well socialized to be any threat at all. Women have a deeply ingrained and very reasonable insecurity about having men in a few places, like public restrooms. Pretending that women are being unreasonable by wanting a man-free place for some personal business is rather the epitome of the culture of entitlement and victimhood.
Tom

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

In other words, you just shot down your own argument with regard to toilets.

Nope. You don't read with sufficient comprehension. And you don't answer direct questions either.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most trans people claiming to be feminine would not be so obviously and stridently male, and would not be hitting on females.

That's kinda another problem with the subject.
How trans must a person be to qualify?

Does a guy who has never done anything in the way of therapy or transition qualify as entitled to use the women's changing room? Trans is very poorly defined.

Most persons of penage, trans or not, aren't the problem. Most of us would go out of our way to be polite and respectful of persons of boobage. It's the other ones...
Tom

I would be fine with requiring therapy and ID indicating they were living as the opposite gender for access to any exposed space, but not for access to spaces where others will not see your equipment. (But note I favor an "any" approach to such spaces which would render it irrelevant.)

 

[Toni]

Finally: Should not everyone be able to expect to feel safe in showers and dressing rooms?

You mean, "the majority", right?

No, I mean EVERYONE.

Policies that target minorities as though they were a dangerous outgroup do not make them "feel safe", as a general rule.

Why should a person who is male on the outside, female on the inside, feel unsafe in a men's locker room? And should we not necessarily mistake belonging with safety?

Look at how many attacks there have been on trans people. We have a lot more examples of male on trans attacks than trans on female attacks. I'm not aware of any data that sorts this out by attacks in gender-specific spaces.

Look at how many attacks are made on women, children, and persons with penises by OTHER PEOPLE WITH PENISES.

 

[Politesse]

Look how many attacks are made by people who have ears.

Or black hair.

Or tattoos.

Or who drive a Toyota Camry.

Or who live in Hoboken.

A statistical correlation is not, or should not be, sufficient to justify policies or legislation that make a scapegoat of a minority population rather than addressing the real issues that face society. I worry more about whether women in our society are safe than whether the most advantaged women in society feel safe. Anti-trans laws make people less safe rather than more safe, so I oppose them on principle.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unless they are trans women, in which case they must "get over it" or face the consequences?

Pretty much, yeah.
The consequences being "expected to use the room right next door".

That's another point. What little I know about MtF, the problem is usually the attitude of the individual. A guy can dip into the women's restroom without any consequences providing they are circumspect. Usually.

A reasonable attempt at female presenting. Keep your eyes, and everything else, to yourself. Go in and do your business and get out.
Don't mess with anybody.

Prolly no-one will care.
Tom

I've got a SIL that has had trouble multiple times with women trying to chase her out of women's restrooms. She's born female but of a rather masculine appearance. Admittedly, this was in China, not the US. I do agree that in the US you could probably pull it off so long as you don't have facial hair.

On the other hand, more than once at tech trade shows I've seen women quite openly walk into the men's room. Nobody objected. (Admittedly, this is a very biased sample, at the time such shows skewed very young and it's a culture where you're judged far more on ability than conformity. Showing up in jeans and a t-shirt would instantly get me branded as hands-on IT rather than management but not disregarded. Likewise, I've attended a few machinery shows where such attire instantly told the exhibitors I was there to learn about how to talk to the machine, not what the machine could do.)

 

[scombrid]

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

I understand that.
I also understand that women have concerns that men just do not have on this subject.

The vast majority of the time, sex and gender really don't matter. Public facilities like this are one of the handful of exceptions.

And also, everyone has an option. Right next to the women's room is a men's. Nobody has to "just hold it". But preferring something doesn't give anyone the entitlement to ignore other people's feelings.
Tom

Again, I wasn’t talking about public restrooms which have stalls with doors in women’s bathrooms.

I can understand why a trans woman would not be comfortable in a men’s locker room and why they might feel unsafe. Trans women experience a disproportionate threat of violence. I don’t want that for anybody.

The same people arguing that they are just trying to protect women by banning trans women from women’s lockers and bathrooms would be lined up to maim or kill the $@&&€£ that dare go in a men’s room. Hence trans women probably don’t want to use a men’s locker.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Answer the question: How would your wife react if she unexpectedly found a stranger with a penis in the shower next to her?

I don't know. She encounters penises professionally on occasion so I can't see it being that big a deal for her.

How would you react if you walked into your home and found a stranger with a penis in the shower next to your wife?

Home is a space where there shouldn't be anyone else regardless of anatomy.

Nudity is not the traumatizing issue here, Loren. It's a nude stranger with a penis in an unexpected place while you yourself are also unclothed.

Women who might be traumatized by other women's nudity tend to avoid places where they might encounter such. It's not likely to be traumatizing if they accidentally encounter a nude woman.

People who are in places where they expect to encounter people in various stages of undress are unlikely to be traumatized by encountering people in various stages of undress, including full nudity.

People who are in female only single sex spaces where they might be undressed/nude who encounter a naked person with a penis are not likely to think first: Oh, she must be a pre-surgical trans woman.

You are showing a fear. You are not showing that the fear is justified.

I am pretty certain if you encountered me next to you in a shower at the Y, you would not think that I must be a presurgical transman who had every right to be in that space. Your initial reaction would probably be closer to WTF??? And then: she must have dementia--get her out of here!

I wouldn't care.

 

[Oleg]

I wouldn't care.

Right. Men don’t care. Women do. This bullying women to accept random naked men in their spaces is just embarrassing, Dude.

 

[Toni]

One bit clarification: Women’s restroom toilets are in stalls with doors. That should eliminate concerns about modesty: there should be no circumstance where anyone has to unwillingly see anyone else’s exposed body.

I understand that.
I also understand that women have concerns that men just do not have on this subject.

The vast majority of the time, sex and gender really don't matter. Public facilities like this are one of the handful of exceptions.

And also, everyone has an option. Right next to the women's room is a men's. Nobody has to "just hold it". But preferring something doesn't give anyone the entitlement to ignore other people's feelings.
Tom

Again, I wasn’t talking about public restrooms which have stalls with doors in women’s bathrooms.

I can understand why a trans woman would not be comfortable in a men’s locker room and why they might feel unsafe. Trans women experience a disproportionate threat of violence. I don’t want that for anybody.

The same people arguing that they are just trying to protect women by banning trans women from women’s lockers and bathrooms would be lined up to maim or kill the $@&&€£ that dare go in a men’s room. Hence trans women probably don’t want to use a men’s locker.

Well, if you’re including me in that group then you are 100% wrong.

I’m interested in a solution that allows all women to have the level of privacy and security they need.

If gyms provide locker rooms/shower/dressing areas with private stall’s windows with doors in sifficient quantities thst anyone who wants she’s to use one has access —and so long as pre-surgical trans women use such, that wpuld likely take care of the issue.

Men telling women there is no issue are anti-female.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I wouldn't care.

Right. Men don’t care. Women do.

You are making untrue hasty generalizations. I would bet _more_ women would care or have different fears on average but there are distributions of feelings, reactions, thoughts, and behaviors in all groups under discussion.

 

[Toni]

Answer the question: How would your wife react if she unexpectedly found a stranger with a penis in the shower next to her?

I don't know. She encounters penises professionally on occasion so I can't see it being that big a deal for her.

How would you react if you walked into your home and found a stranger with a penis in the shower next to your wife?

Home is a space where there shouldn't be anyone else regardless of anatomy.

Nudity is not the traumatizing issue here, Loren. It's a nude stranger with a penis in an unexpected place while you yourself are also unclothed.

Women who might be traumatized by other women's nudity tend to avoid places where they might encounter such. It's not likely to be traumatizing if they accidentally encounter a nude woman.

People who are in places where they expect to encounter people in various stages of undress are unlikely to be traumatized by encountering people in various stages of undress, including full nudity.

People who are in female only single sex spaces where they might be undressed/nude who encounter a naked person with a penis are not likely to think first: Oh, she must be a pre-surgical trans woman.

You are showing a fear. You are not showing that the fear is justified.

I am pretty certain if you encountered me next to you in a shower at the Y, you would not think that I must be a presurgical transman who had every right to be in that space. Your initial reaction would probably be closer to WTF??? And then: she must have dementia--get her out of here!

I wouldn't care.

Yes, home is a place where one should never expect to find a naked stranger. With or without a penis.

A woman’s locker room/shower area and dressing room is a space where women would expect to see other women’s bodies and for their body to be seen unless they used a private stall. It is NOT a place where they would expect to see a naked person with a penis. That fact: A naked person with a penis in a female only space would cause women to be startled at the least and perhaps frightened or traumatized depending on her experience.

What you called me expressing fear was me expressing concern and empathy. I understand that you are unfamiliar with either.

 

[ZiprHead]

Men telling women there is no issue are anti-female.

I don't think I'd go that far but the dismissal of women's feelings is quite astounding.