Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Bomb#20]

My friends sister said she got an STD from a toilet seat. We knew the BiL scrwed around on her and that's probably how she got the infection.

"Everybody lies" - Dr Gregory House, Head of Diagnostic Medicine, Princeton-Plainsboro Teaching Hospital, Princeton NJ.

Nesmith: Mathesar, there's no such person as Captain Taggart. My name is Jason Nesmith. I'm an actor. We're all actors.

Sarris: He doesn't understand. Explain as you would a child.

Nesmith: We, uh, we pretended.

[Mathesar still doesn't get it.]

Nesmith: We lied.

 

[southernhybrid]

Well since we've gone so far off....what where we talking about....? All this talk about lying has inspired me to add the lyrics to the late BB Kings hit, "Everybody lies a Little". BB was one of, if not the best Blues artists ever, imo.

Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies a little sometimes

Some people lie about this, that, and the other
Other peoples lie about one another
Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies sometimes
Everybody lies sometimes

Some people never see their lies as lies
They just see the truth, the truth in disguise
Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies a little sometimes

I've been told that lyin' is wrong
All right with me if it saves your life or your home
Everybody lies a little sometimes

Everybody lies a little
Your old lady, she lies a little
Your old man, he lies a little
Your sister, she lies a little
Your brother, he lies a little
Even your preacher, he lies a little
Your deacon, he lies a little
Your lawyer, he lies a little
Your doctor, he lies a little
Politicians, lie a little
Your children, they lie a little
Even I lie a little
Lucille lies a little
https://lyricstranslate.com

I think I'd have to disagree about politicians. They lie a lot.

 

[repoman]

Yes, US Rep Whose District Covers Covenant School Took Christmas Photo of Family Holding Guns​

The picture is from 2021, however, not 2023, when a woman shot up the school, killing six.​

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-rep-chrismas-card-guns-nashville-shooting/

 

[Jarhyn]

Well since we've gone so far off....what where we talking about....? All this talk about lying has inspired me to add the lyrics to the late BB Kings hit, "Everybody lies a Little". BB was one of, if not the best Blues artists ever, imo.

Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies a little sometimes

Some people lie about this, that, and the other
Other peoples lie about one another
Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies sometimes
Everybody lies sometimes

Some people never see their lies as lies
They just see the truth, the truth in disguise
Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies a little sometimes
Everybody lies a little sometimes

I've been told that lyin' is wrong
All right with me if it saves your life or your home
Everybody lies a little sometimes

Everybody lies a little
Your old lady, she lies a little
Your old man, he lies a little
Your sister, she lies a little
Your brother, he lies a little
Even your preacher, he lies a little
Your deacon, he lies a little
Your lawyer, he lies a little
Your doctor, he lies a little
Politicians, lie a little
Your children, they lie a little
Even I lie a little
Lucille lies a little
https://lyricstranslate.com

I think I'd have to disagree about politicians. They lie a lot.

I think by in large it's an attempt to cause adjacency in conversation so that association happens between "people lie" and "trans people" so as to foment "trans people are liars", as if there is any essential truth behind "man/woman" or even "male/female".

Each person is only "themselves" in the end, not a "man" or a "woman", unless you use a very strict definition based on a single boolean factor. Otherwise, everyone is "some admixture of the two", or sometimes "neither".

It IS possible to name a couple chemicals and ask an individual "do you contain these chemicals at these locations in your body?" That's not man/woman though, that's normally considered private medical information.

A simple drug test does that for many chemicals, through tracking their metabolic products or sometimes through direct chemical measurements.

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When I worked as a maternity nurse in public. health, one of my patients had an STD and her husband told her he got it from a toilet seat. I told her that it was none of my business what she decided to do as far as her marriage was concerned, but her husband didn't get the STD from a toilet seat. I felt bad for this very young, teenage girl, but I felt like she needed to know the truth. Of course, she might have decided to believe her husband, as sometimes it's easier to accept a lie than the truth. As a public health nurse, it was my duty to teach my patients how STDs are spread. This also happened once when I worked in STD clinic. This was also close to 40 years ago.

Note, however, that there is a documented case of an STD from a hot spring. The girl was young enough that it got carefully investigated and it was concluded that nobody had the opportunity to have done sexual things with her.

 

[Emily Lake]

Would you hold the same view if Rachel Dolezal were given an award for her contribution to the advancement of black people, and were given that award during black history month?

Yes.
If someone gets an award for something I don't really care much about their skin color.

Sorry if that is racist by your standards.
If Rachel Dolezal did stuff that got her such an award I would be okay with that.
Tom

And this year's award for the best runner in the 10 to 12 year age bracket goes to 36 year old Usain Bolt!

Alrighty then. I have no response.

 

[Emily Lake]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

 

[Jarhyn]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

No, they aren't. They are imaginary, just as all statistical objects are.

This is well understood in data science and biology.

Testosterone IS well understood. So is estrogen.

It is a lie to say either of those things you said. They are based on that imaginary statistical object, and an explicit misunderstanding of it.

It is a lie that is so very close to a truth, but still manages to miss it by miles.

 

[Toni]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

No, they aren't. They are imaginary, just as all statistical objects are.

This is well understood in data science and biology.

Testosterone IS well understood. So is estrogen.

It is a lie to say either of those things you said. They are based on that imaginary statistical object, and an explicit misunderstanding of it.

It is a lie that is so very close to a truth, but still manages to miss it by miles.

Humans decided that there were words that described man, woman, child and other categories and that those words meant certain things, encompassed certain characteristics. We have expanded our concept of those words over time. We use those words to describe persons with specific characteristics and have expanded the parameters of what those characteristics are. But words still have meaning.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

Nature does a very poor job of being binary. While things might be basically binary there are edge cases where the system didn't work perfectly.

 

[Jarhyn]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

No, they aren't. They are imaginary, just as all statistical objects are.

This is well understood in data science and biology.

Testosterone IS well understood. So is estrogen.

It is a lie to say either of those things you said. They are based on that imaginary statistical object, and an explicit misunderstanding of it.

It is a lie that is so very close to a truth, but still manages to miss it by miles.

Humans decided that there were words that described man, woman, child and other categories and that those words meant certain things, encompassed certain characteristics. We have expanded our concept of those words over time. We use those words to describe persons with specific characteristics and have expanded the parameters of what those characteristics are. But words still have meaning.

Words have intent, certainly, but that intent does not always reflect reality, and as stated, the intent here is to derive an observation of reality, not a figment of the imagination, and so "man" and "woman" simply do not suffice.

Cluster concepts are fundamentally weak, flimsy. This is not a new conversation on these forums.

People decided certain things had meaning and attached that meaning to words. They weren't always right about the meaning they ascribed to the things themselves.

People thought once upon a time that having a healthy, well ordered digestive tract was what made you think and feel well about the world, and that the brain was just a curious weird thing that wasn't well understood, an afterthought. People could live and even often nothing changed about them after a brain injury. An injury to the gut just killed them dead.

They were wrong about the meaning of the gut, and attached words to those wrong meanings. It's all rather... Humorous.

Bad puns aside, the words people attach to "meanings" can in fact still be meaninglessly used. It all depends how strong the meaning is. It's been revealed that when we aren't making bad assumptions and ignoring significant populations of people, the meaning of "man" and "woman" actually quite weak and vague.

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

Nature does a very poor job of being binary. While things might be basically binary there are edge cases where the system didn't work perfectly.

Not even "where the system does not work perfectly". There is no "perfectly" to work towards, no ideal to attain.

No promises, no real categories, no instruction manual, no expectations or requirements! WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!

If you rearrange what you see... What you get is the result of the rearrangement. If you can do it, it will be done, and then you live with the consequences.

Cut off a finger? You'll still function pretty much the same, just down a finger. It's not like your body will explode or melt for having lost it.

Same with the testicles, though most guys will get kind of sad if their peepee doesn't work quite the same anymore.

Still, what you see is what you get, No requirements, no expectations, no exceptions, especially as you say "around the edges".

 

[southernhybrid]

When I worked as a maternity nurse in public. health, one of my patients had an STD and her husband told her he got it from a toilet seat. I told her that it was none of my business what she decided to do as far as her marriage was concerned, but her husband didn't get the STD from a toilet seat. I felt bad for this very young, teenage girl, but I felt like she needed to know the truth. Of course, she might have decided to believe her husband, as sometimes it's easier to accept a lie than the truth. As a public health nurse, it was my duty to teach my patients how STDs are spread. This also happened once when I worked in STD clinic. This was also close to 40 years ago.

Note, however, that there is a documented case of an STD from a hot spring. The girl was young enough that it got carefully investigated and it was concluded that nobody had the opportunity to have done sexual things with her.

There are extremely rare instances when STDs do get transmitted in unusual ways, but when a man tells his partner that he got one from a toilet seat, we can assume he's lying.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

When I worked as a maternity nurse in public. health, one of my patients had an STD and her husband told her he got it from a toilet seat. I told her that it was none of my business what she decided to do as far as her marriage was concerned, but her husband didn't get the STD from a toilet seat. I felt bad for this very young, teenage girl, but I felt like she needed to know the truth. Of course, she might have decided to believe her husband, as sometimes it's easier to accept a lie than the truth. As a public health nurse, it was my duty to teach my patients how STDs are spread. This also happened once when I worked in STD clinic. This was also close to 40 years ago.

Note, however, that there is a documented case of an STD from a hot spring. The girl was young enough that it got carefully investigated and it was concluded that nobody had the opportunity to have done sexual things with her.

That is less a note and more a distraction.

 

[Emily Lake]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

No, they aren't. They are imaginary, just as all statistical objects are.

This is well understood in data science and biology.

Testosterone IS well understood. So is estrogen.

It is a lie to say either of those things you said. They are based on that imaginary statistical object, and an explicit misunderstanding of it.

It is a lie that is so very close to a truth, but still manages to miss it by miles.

Claiming that the categories of male and female are imaginary is straight up loony tunes.

 

[Emily Lake]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

Nature does a very poor job of being binary. While things might be basically binary there are edge cases where the system didn't work perfectly.

Go find me ANY mammal that has a third gamete type. Go on. I'll wait.

 

[Jarhyn]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

No, they aren't. They are imaginary, just as all statistical objects are.

This is well understood in data science and biology.

Testosterone IS well understood. So is estrogen.

It is a lie to say either of those things you said. They are based on that imaginary statistical object, and an explicit misunderstanding of it.

It is a lie that is so very close to a truth, but still manages to miss it by miles.

Claiming that the categories of male and female are imaginary is straight up loony tunes.

They are statistical objects. Statistical objects are imaginary. Therefore they are imaginary.

Someone that can't accept that things they thought were fundamentally meaningful are in fact imaginary are the bread and butter of the history books, with a special emphasis on the "butt".

 

[Jarhyn]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

Nature does a very poor job of being binary. While things might be basically binary there are edge cases where the system didn't work perfectly.

Go find me ANY mammal that has a third gamete type. Go on. I'll wait.

False dichotomy. Gametes don't have types, they are simply themselves, each chromosome being exactly "what you see is what you get".

You are again reducing bitfields to binaries, declaring a fundamental uniform sameness when such is absent from reality.

 

[Jarhyn]

In short, every person is an individual. Exposure of some person's to other person's secretions will cause a chemical reaction to occur that yields another individual person.

This is not true of every union of every person. Many people produce secretions, semen, which can create pregnancy, the chemical reaction discussed. Many people produce no such secretions capable of causing pregnancy. Many people are incapable of hosting a pregnancy.

The true facts of the system:
A: Some people who produce semen will be capable of hosting pregnancies.
B: Some people who do not produce semen will be capable of hosting pregnancies.
C: Some people who do not produce semen will be capable of hosting pregnancies.
D: some people will be capable of neither

Some people will only function in one capacity or the other for a mere subset of "all people who may with SOME other person".

It has not been confirmed whether this has ever happened from a single person capable of (A), but it very well may be possible though unlikely at any given point in time to be happening.

1: Some people of each group will have 23 horizontally arranged "chromosomes", chemical groupings separated by "large" spaces.
2: Some will have more.
3: Some will have fewer.
4: Some will have different groups.
5: Some pairs will have both within some deviation of the mean and some will not.

•some will be born with testosterone producing tissue
°some will be be born with estrogen producing tissue
-some will be born with neither



People of any lettered category may be in any one of the numbered categories.

There is some interference between the lettered categories and the symbol categories, though it is still possible for broad overlaps, and it would be very difficult to advance a case that the symbol cases CANNOT overlaps on all the letter cases, merely that it hasn't been directly observed yet of such things happening. The one exception being the necessity of certain hormones in certain quantities to trigger the ovulation processes, but at the same time it is also true that someone doesn't need to ovulate to host pregnancies either.

There is no binary there. It's a huge field of various factors and I only discussed three of the categories.

Man and woman in your sex-essentialist model are just "take one peak of the distribution in each category, assume all of them, and assume that this is enough to categorize every person"

It's dumb. It's useless. It erases people.

 

[Emily Lake]

The real people who are liars are those who claim themselves to be "men" or "women" AND who claim that this is a matter of biological fact rather than their own arbitrary declaration.

Honestly, this is absurd. Male and female are well-defined, well-understood categories within sexually reproductive species like our own. Acknowledging that you are an adult male of the human species (a man) is not a lie. Nor is acknowledging that I'm an adult female of the human species (a woman).

On the other hand... insisting that these biological categories are NOT factual is... well maybe not a lie, but certainly an irrational fantasy.

No, they aren't. They are imaginary, just as all statistical objects are.

This is well understood in data science and biology.

Testosterone IS well understood. So is estrogen.

It is a lie to say either of those things you said. They are based on that imaginary statistical object, and an explicit misunderstanding of it.

It is a lie that is so very close to a truth, but still manages to miss it by miles.

Claiming that the categories of male and female are imaginary is straight up loony tunes.

They are statistical objects. Statistical objects are imaginary. Therefore they are imaginary.

Someone that can't accept that things they thought were fundamentally meaningful are in fact imaginary are the bread and butter of the history books, with a special emphasis on the "butt".

Male and female are not statistical objects.

How the fuck do you think reproduction works? Do you think the stork shows up and drops a kid under a fucking cabbage? Do you think there's some doubt about whether your mother was female or whether your father was male?

Honestly, your entire stance is completely and utterly insane.

 

[Jarhyn]

Male and female are not statistical objects.

Yes, they are. They are objects taken from the observation of groups to determine common similarities of clusters within the population.

There is no such thing as a platonic man. There is no such thing as a platonic woman.

There never has been.

There never will be.