Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[TomC]

OTOH, what about pre-operative Female trans in the men's locker room? Are they safe from males?

Ain't nobody safe.

Especially when men are involved.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Interestingly, women are actually much more accepting of trans rights than men, despite the men vs women narrative being pushed in this thread. In both cases, most men and most women oppose the use of bathrooms and locker rooms by trans people, that's not in dispute. Ours is a transphobic country to the core. But women are slightly less likely, not more likely, to hold prejudicial attitudes about trans people in publuc spaces.

Real question: If your mother or your partner's mother or your ex or any woman you cared about called you up, upset because while she was showering at the gym, there was a naked stranger with a penis next to her in the shower, would you not understand why they might be upset by that?

Of course I would.

But I wouldn't see the existence of trans people as the problem to be solved.

 

[Politesse]

They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears.

Sorry dude.
They aren't discriminating against other women. They're discriminating against male women. It's the male part that matters.
Like it or not, MtF are males.

In the huge majority of human interaction sex/gender/orientation issues simply don't matter. In a few they do matter.

Public facilities like restrooms/changing rooms and competitive sports divisions are among the exceptions where sex does matter.

There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.

Expecting someone to use the facility in the next room is not "assaulting them".

This post is the kind of ridiculous stuff Metaphor used to call out.
Tom

You can believe whatever you like, but ours is a secular nation; you don't get to impose your beliefs on other people without qualification or rebuttal.

 

[Oleg]

You can believe whatever you like, but ours is a secular nation; you don't get to impose your beliefs on other people without qualification or rebuttal.

Isn't that exactly what the trans identified men are doing to women?

 

[TomC]

You can believe whatever you like, but ours is a secular nation; you don't get to impose your beliefs on other people without qualification or rebuttal.

What?

I'm a guy. A male. Giving me access to the women's rooms are an expansion of my rights.

But I'm empathetic enough to recognize why women don't want me in there.

You're the ideological purist, bordering on religious, that doesn't care what the large bulk of people want. Which is male-free spaces for real women to do personal business.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Interestingly, women are actually much more accepting of trans rights than men, despite the men vs women narrative being pushed in this thread. In both cases, most men and most women oppose the use of bathrooms and locker rooms by trans people, that's not in dispute. Ours is a transphobic country to the core. But women are slightly less likely, not more likely, to hold prejudicial attitudes about trans people in publuc spaces.

Real question: If your mother or your partner's mother or your ex or any woman you cared about called you up, upset because while she was showering at the gym, there was a naked stranger with a penis next to her in the shower, would you not understand why they might be upset by that?

Of course I would.

But I wouldn't see the existence of trans people as the problem to be solved.

Nor do I see the existence of trans people as a 'problem to be solved.' I see the existence of trans people as the existence of people. Full stop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Women are conditioned/trained/learn from experience that naked strangers with penises standing next to them in showers are to be regarded as threats. It is extremely unlikely that any woman taking a shower at her local gym and observing that the person stepping up next to her is a naked person with a penis is immediately going to think: This is a pre/nonsurgical trans woman. Or even: This MIGHT be a presurgical trans woman. Their immediate and gut reaction would be that this is someone who likely intends me harm and react accordingly.

You still haven't shown that the fear is rational. And you haven't addressed the same issue reframed as race--when that one actually has some basis in reality. (Blacks are more likely to be criminals--the fact that that's actually a socioeconomic factor doesn't make it go away.)

The same way they would if they were taking a shower in their own home and a naked stranger with a penis approached them. Or in their kitchen or living room. Or if they woke up at night and found a naked stranger with a penis standing next to their bed. Or in their garage. Or following them out of the building as they head towards their car in the parking lot--day or night!

You continue to compare public and private spaces.

The issue is NOT women being afraid of penises or of people with penises. The issue is that encountering a naked person with a penis in a place where one does not anticipate finding one is at the very least startling and uncomfortable. It's more than that if you are yourself naked. The initial reaction is that that person is an immediate threat to you. The immediate reaction is not: I need to ask this person some questions (which, I would guess, would make the naked person with a penis uncomfortable if they are in fact a transwoman). The immediate reaction would to to yell for help and assume you needed to defend yourself. If you had previously been sexually assaulted by a person with a penis, you would likely be extremely upset, frightened, panicked, traumatized. You might even reflexively act to protect yourself against the perceived threat.

And if the rules were changed they would no longer not be anticipated, your argument goes poof.

WOMEN DO NOT EXPECT TO FIND NAKED PEOPLE WITH PENISES IN THE WOMEN'S LOCKER ROOM.

Jim Crow era: Whites do not expect to find blacks in the restroom with them. Therefore blacks must be kept out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

hey encounter a naked stranger with a penis in a place where they do not expect to see one

It is exactly the expectation to not see a penis in a public locker room for all women, which is at issue here. Why should you be able to expect that? IT is like being able to  exoect there to be no black people by the white people ATM.

In your home? It's expected because utter privacy for every individual is the expectation there. Seeing someone, anyone in the shower next to me without pants on* at home is cause for me to rip down the shower curtain, drape them, and then beat them until they stop moving.

*Except as invited.

Because until a couple of years ago, that's EXACTLY what anyone and everyone would expect. It is STILL what I would expect. An exception would be if the gym informed all members and visitors that there were presurgical trans individuals using the facilities and they had a right to be there.

When trans people are as common as black people, get back to me.

Your described reaction to a naked stranger in your shower at home? That's EXACTLY how most women would react to finding a naked stranger with a penis next to them in the shower--at home or in the gym. Because they don't expect to find such a person and the immediate perception would be that such a person intends them harm.

This amounts to unusual = wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Really? Because if the government mandates that pre/nonsurgical transwomen must be allowed in the same public showers as women, then the government isn't just sanctioning sexual assault but mandating it.

Mandating it?

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

Threat = zero.

Because exposing yourself to someone who is not a willing participant is sexual assault. Which women, apparently, are expected to tolerate.

Strangely enough, Vermont doesn't seem to see it that way at all. They sensibly separate nudity (legal) from flashing (illegal) and recognize only the latter is sexual assault. Once again, it doesn't cause a problem. (Note that some cities have their own laws, I'm only talking about the state law.)

There is no reason that all showers and dressing rooms in any gym or similar facility are not outfitted with private stalls with doors that provide privacy for whoever is using them. I realize that this is an adjustment for a lot of men but too bad. Your need/desire for the comradery of shared nudity in gym lockerrooms and showers should not trump women's need/desire for safety and comfort.

Black's need for restrooms shouldn't trump white's need for safety and comfort.

 

[TomC]

You still haven't shown that the fear is rational.

Seriously?
You can't see the stats and anecdotes and history for yourself?

Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As far as I can tell, Emily Lake and Toni have neither suggested that transgenders had no place in a locker-room. Their interest is with pre-surgical transgender men. Your interest is apparently with perverts. You are obsessed with perverts.

"Pre-surgical" implies they will eventually have such surgery. Most trans people never have bottom surgery because the results aren't very good.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is assault to demand someone leave so that your sensibilities are not offended by you looking/seeing.

While I agree with the rest of your list I don't see how this is assault.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exposing yourself to unwilling viewers in public is assault.

No. There is no protection against offensive speech unless it's a captive-audience situation.

I can walk by in Klan robes and you haven't been assaulted.

Again: No one is offended by penises. I am not offended by penises. I have been married probably longer than you've been alive, I've raised sons, I've been in mixed gender group shower situations, have taken life drawing classes with naked male models. Shit I went to school in the 70's---during the streaking craze! It was definitely not possible to not see plenty of penis, even unexpectedly on my college campus. It was simply how it was and no big deal.

And note they caused no harm.

Unless you did not expect to see a penis next to you in the shower. That would have been startling, upsetting, possibly traumatizing depending on the circumstance. If the person with a penis is with their girlfriend, probably just considered impolite to intrusive. Some dude from the guy's floor appearing in the shower on the women's floor? Not cool and possibly threatening. Someone you'd never seen before? Definitely scary situation. Shit, there were a couple of guys I would not willingly be in an elevator with even if there were several other people in the same elevator. Alone? I got off immediately. Women learn to develop and trust their creep meters for good reason. No, creep meters are not infallible. But I spent one long, long night trying to keep one of those creepy dudes from lighting on fire my friend who had passed out. Or raping her because he was definitely interested in that. So when I say creep: it was earned.

So it's the surprise factor--but in the places that permit it it shouldn't be a surprise, thus you have no reason against it.

And note the elevator creep wasn't naked. You aren't showing a reason against penises!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still haven't shown that the fear is rational.

Seriously?
You can't see the stats and anecdotes and history for yourself?

Tom

Stats? Men commit more crimes than women. That doesn't mean bathroom access causes more crime:

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

And what anecdote involved a penis? Creeps don't need to be naked to be creeps.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is not assault to have someone else in the same room with anatomy you do not like.

Then why have opposite sex rooms at all? That’s where this is heading, right?

Indeed. It's almost as if our culture has some endemic problems with catering to prejudice.

I think the fundamental division of facilities was poorly thought out, at best.

The real binary is "wants total privacy" and "does not care".

But I have seen so many times where a company, or a culture, or even a species ends up in a situation where they built infrastructure on the basis of a shitty idea, and end up feeling stuck like that.

Fortunately, things can, and occasionally should be, rebuilt.

 

[Jarhyn]

hey encounter a naked stranger with a penis in a place where they do not expect to see one

It is exactly the expectation to not see a penis in a public locker room for all women, which is at issue here. Why should you be able to expect that? IT is like being able to  exoect there to be no black people by the white people ATM.

In your home? It's expected because utter privacy for every individual is the expectation there. Seeing someone, anyone in the shower next to me without pants on* at home is cause for me to rip down the shower curtain, drape them, and then beat them until they stop moving.

*Except as invited.

Because until a couple of years ago, that's EXACTLY what anyone and everyone would expect. It is STILL what I would expect. An exception would be if the gym informed all members and visitors that there were presurgical trans individuals using the facilities and they had a right to be there.

When trans people are as common as black people, get back to me.

Your described reaction to a naked stranger in your shower at home? That's EXACTLY how most women would react to finding a naked stranger with a penis next to them in the shower--at home or in the gym. Because they don't expect to find such a person and the immediate perception would be that such a person intends them harm.

And until some decades ago, I described already what white people thought they could expect as per bank tellers and drinking fountains and so on.

White people have rightly been told "get over it, that shit is racist.

And let's be frank, a LOT of white people felt REALLY strongly about it. So strongly that when those black kids "predisposed to criminality" were in white people schools, there were riots!

There was more vocal resistance to change there than there was to this. Way more. It was very serious business.

The solution was not to defer to prejudice, but to reject it even though there would be unrest.

 

[Toni]

hey encounter a naked stranger with a penis in a place where they do not expect to see one

It is exactly the expectation to not see a penis in a public locker room for all women, which is at issue here. Why should you be able to expect that? IT is like being able to  exoect there to be no black people by the white people ATM.

In your home? It's expected because utter privacy for every individual is the expectation there. Seeing someone, anyone in the shower next to me without pants on* at home is cause for me to rip down the shower curtain, drape them, and then beat them until they stop moving.

*Except as invited.

Because until a couple of years ago, that's EXACTLY what anyone and everyone would expect. It is STILL what I would expect. An exception would be if the gym informed all members and visitors that there were presurgical trans individuals using the facilities and they had a right to be there.

When trans people are as common as black people, get back to me.

Your described reaction to a naked stranger in your shower at home? That's EXACTLY how most women would react to finding a naked stranger with a penis next to them in the shower--at home or in the gym. Because they don't expect to find such a person and the immediate perception would be that such a person intends them harm.

And until some decades ago, I described already what white people thought they could expect as per bank tellers and drinking fountains and so on.

White people have rightly been told "get over it, that shit is racist.

And let's be frank, a LOT of white people felt REALLY strongly about it. So strongly that when those black kids "predisposed to criminality" were in white people schools, there were riots!

There was more vocal resistance to change there than there was to this. Way more. It was very serious business.

The solution was not to defer to prejudice, but to reject it even though there would be unrest.

It’s not prejudice for women to expect to see only female appearing bodies in female only spaces when people might not be fully clothed.

It is not prejudice to be startled or apprehensive or frightened or even angry or traumatized when you encounter a naked stranger with a penis in a designated female only space, especially if you are yourself unclothed.

Everyone has the right to privacy. Everyone has the right to feel safe.

I am NOT advocating for excluding trans individuals from any place, including dressing rooms. I’m advocating for universal private dressing rooms and showers.

 

[Oleg]

Indeed. It's almost as if our culture has some endemic problems with catering to prejudice.

There's a meme on the right that the whole purpose of bringing down these boundaries is to normalize pedophilia. Foucault would approve.

 

[Toni]

Exposing yourself to unwilling viewers in public is assault.

No. There is no protection against offensive speech unless it's a captive-audience situation.

I can walk by in Klan robes and you haven't been assaulted.

Again: No one is offended by penises. I am not offended by penises. I have been married probably longer than you've been alive, I've raised sons, I've been in mixed gender group shower situations, have taken life drawing classes with naked male models. Shit I went to school in the 70's---during the streaking craze! It was definitely not possible to not see plenty of penis, even unexpectedly on my college campus. It was simply how it was and no big deal.

And note they caused no harm.

Unless you did not expect to see a penis next to you in the shower. That would have been startling, upsetting, possibly traumatizing depending on the circumstance. If the person with a penis is with their girlfriend, probably just considered impolite to intrusive. Some dude from the guy's floor appearing in the shower on the women's floor? Not cool and possibly threatening. Someone you'd never seen before? Definitely scary situation. Shit, there were a couple of guys I would not willingly be in an elevator with even if there were several other people in the same elevator. Alone? I got off immediately. Women learn to develop and trust their creep meters for good reason. No, creep meters are not infallible. But I spent one long, long night trying to keep one of those creepy dudes from lighting on fire my friend who had passed out. Or raping her because he was definitely interested in that. So when I say creep: it was earned.

So it's the surprise factor--but in the places that permit it it shouldn't be a surprise, thus you have no reason against it.

And note the elevator creep wasn't naked. You aren't showing a reason against penises!

Yes, exposing your naked self is legally considered assault. I have no idea what you are talking about with the Klan robe scenario unless you are talking about your own fantasies.

No, me seeing penises in random public places or in situations where I expected that there would be penises did not cause me any harm.

Yes, being surprised by a naked body with a penis in a women only space IS the issue.

No it is NOT reasonable to expect women to just assume that the naked stranger next to them in the shower is a trans woman and no threat to them.

No it is not reasonable to expect women to be ok with some naked stranger with a penis to see them undressed in a shower or locker room and to make the assumption that it’s only a trans woman and not someone who might be s threat.

What kind of obsession do you have with open dressing rooms and showers? Why are private showers and dressing rooms not perfectly reasonable?

Or do you just object to women feeling safe and comfortable in women’s dressing rooms and shower?

Is this just some back door version of the Taliban designed to keep women and girls at home and in their place?

 

[Toni]

Really? Because if the government mandates that pre/nonsurgical transwomen must be allowed in the same public showers as women, then the government isn't just sanctioning sexual assault but mandating it.

Mandating it?

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

Threat = zero.

Because exposing yourself to someone who is not a willing participant is sexual assault. Which women, apparently, are expected to tolerate.

Strangely enough, Vermont doesn't seem to see it that way at all. They sensibly separate nudity (legal) from flashing (illegal) and recognize only the latter is sexual assault. Once again, it doesn't cause a problem. (Note that some cities have their own laws, I'm only talking about the state law.)

There is no reason that all showers and dressing rooms in any gym or similar facility are not outfitted with private stalls with doors that provide privacy for whoever is using them. I realize that this is an adjustment for a lot of men but too bad. Your need/desire for the comradery of shared nudity in gym lockerrooms and showers should not trump women's need/desire for safety and comfort.

Black's need for restrooms shouldn't trump white's need for safety and comfort.

Pretty sure that’s not what you mean.

Women’s restrooms have stalls with doors on them. They offer all users privacy.

We are not talking about restrooms. We are talking about dressing rooms and showers where women are naked.

And I am suggesting mandatory stalls with doors for dressing and showering and that such should be universal fir make and female spaces.

It is disgusting to insist that asserting a woman’s right to privacy is equivalent to Jim Crow.

Shame on you all.