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So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
 
So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
It’s more than them being a potential threat; it’s men watching women undressing and showering. There are laws against that.


But, apparently, if the guy says he’s a gal, women must just accept the violation.
 
So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
You (not "women", who do not all share your prejudices and did not elect you their spokesperson anyway) can assume whatever you like. No one can stop you from making assumptions.
 
So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
It’s more than them being a potential threat; it’s men watching women undressing and showering. There are laws against that.


But, apparently, if the guy says he’s a gal, women must just accept the violation.
You see, we are having a conversation regarding people being where they belong, however, the conflicts it can have with others in that area.

And Oleg wants to keep talking about perverts.
 
So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
It’s more than them being a potential threat; it’s men watching women undressing and showering. There are laws against that.


But, apparently, if the guy says he’s a gal, women must just accept the violation.
You see, we are having a conversation regarding people being where they belong, however, the conflicts it can have with others in that area.

And Oleg wants to keep talking about perverts.
Men don’t belong in women spaces; especially where women are undressing or showering. There’s a woman in this thread pleading with men to understand that. But the men keep telling her to shut up.
 
So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
It’s more than them being a potential threat; it’s men watching women undressing and showering. There are laws against that.


But, apparently, if the guy says he’s a gal, women must just accept the violation.
You see, we are having a conversation regarding people being where they belong, however, the conflicts it can have with others in that area.

And Oleg wants to keep talking about perverts.
Men don’t belong in women spaces; especially where women are undressing or showering. There’s a woman in this thread pleading with men to understand that. But the men keep telling her to shut up.
As far as I can tell, Emily Lake and Toni have neither suggested that transgenders had no place in a locker-room. Their interest is with pre-surgical transgender men. Your interest is apparently with perverts. You are obsessed with perverts.
 
So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
You (not "women", who do not all share your prejudices and did not elect you their spokesperson anyway) can assume whatever you like. No one can stop you from making assumptions.
It is not prejudice to assume that an unexpected naked stranger with a penis in a place you did not expect to find one is a potential threat. That is absolutely rational.

Why would a pre-surgical trans woman feel uncomfortable in a man’s locker room? Why would that person feel unsafe?

Why is that person’s feelings of discomfort and fear of being naked and exposed to a bunch of or even one other naked person with a penis more important than the discomfort and fear of a cis woman?

Why do you object to or ignore the reasonable accommodation of universal private stalls for dressing and for showering?
 
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So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
And women who encounter naked strangers with penises in the shower or locker room should.....just assume that is someone who is a presurgical trans woman and no threat to them?


Really.
It’s more than them being a potential threat; it’s men watching women undressing and showering. There are laws against that.


But, apparently, if the guy says he’s a gal, women must just accept the violation.
You see, we are having a conversation regarding people being where they belong, however, the conflicts it can have with others in that area.

And Oleg wants to keep talking about perverts.
Men don’t belong in women spaces; especially where women are undressing or showering. There’s a woman in this thread pleading with men to understand that. But the men keep telling her to shut up.
As far as I can tell, Emily Lake and Toni have neither suggested that transgenders had no place in a locker-room. Their interest is with pre-surgical transgender men. Your interest is apparently with perverts. You are obsessed with perverts.
Nah. I just see a group of men badgering women to accept naked men in their showers and locker rooms. When the women object, the men remind them how irrational women are.
 
What is that person’s feelings of discomfort and fear of being naked and exposed to a bunch of or even one other naked person with a penis more important than the discomfort and fear of a cis woman?
The progressive stack really is something to behold.
 
Projecting, much? No one said anything remotely like that...

I have from the start rejected the argument that all women agree with Toni and yourself, let alone that all women are, as you say, "irrational". Neither is true.
 
the government isn't just sanctioning sexual assault but mandating it
It is not assault to have someone else in the same room with anatomy you do not like.

It is assault to demand someone look explicitly.

It is assault to demand someone leave so that your sensibilities are not offended by you looking/seeing.

It is not assault to just be there assuming the reason for being there is to use the infrastructure, not star at people's bodies.

If someone is staring at your body in the locker room, by all means have them ejected, they are sexually assaulting you by leering.

But it is not assault any more than a black person standing behind a white person waiting for the ATM is a mugging.
 
Projecting, much? No one said anything remotely like that...

I have from the start rejected the argument that all women agree with Toni and yourself, let alone that all women are, as you say, "irrational". Neither is true.
So women are okay with naked guys in their gym showers, really?
 
Interestingly, women are actually much more accepting of trans rights than men, despite the men vs women narrative being pushed in this thread. In both cases, most men and most women oppose the use of bathrooms and locker rooms by trans people, that's not in dispute. Ours is a transphobic country to the core. But women are slightly less likely, not more likely, to hold prejudicial attitudes about trans people in publuc spaces.
 
They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears.
Sorry dude.
They aren't discriminating against other women. They're discriminating against male women. It's the male part that matters.
Like it or not, MtF are males.

In the huge majority of human interaction sex/gender/orientation issues simply don't matter. In a few they do matter.

Public facilities like restrooms/changing rooms and competitive sports divisions are among the exceptions where sex does matter.
There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.
Expecting someone to use the facility in the next room is not "assaulting them".

This post is the kind of ridiculous stuff Metaphor used to call out.
Tom
 
Oh boy;

A mom who dressed up as a cat to protest against a trans board member has slammed a gym for allowing them to use the women's locker room – claiming that they stared at her breasts. Lindsey Graham, 41, was at Esporta in Goodyear, Arizona, a suburb west of Phoenix, when she claimed Paul Bixler came into the female changing area while she was half naked. The 72-year-old is a retired teacher and principal who identifies as a transgender woman – and wears ' his dead wife's clothes.'

Daily Mail

From the video, Bixler is a bloke wandering around the female locker room like a boss!!
 
OTOH, what about pre-operative Female trans in the men's locker room? Are they safe from males?
 
the government isn't just sanctioning sexual assault but mandating it
It is not assault to have someone else in the same room with anatomy you do not like.

It is assault to demand someone look explicitly.

It is assault to demand someone leave so that your sensibilities are not offended by you looking/seeing.

It is not assault to just be there assuming the reason for being there is to use the infrastructure, not star at people's bodies.

If someone is staring at your body in the locker room, by all means have them ejected, they are sexually assaulting you by leering.

But it is not assault any more than a black person standing behind a white person waiting for the ATM is a mugging.
Exposing yourself to unwilling viewers in public is assault.

Again: No one is offended by penises. I am not offended by penises. I have been married probably longer than you've been alive, I've raised sons, I've been in mixed gender group shower situations, have taken life drawing classes with naked male models. Shit I went to school in the 70's---during the streaking craze! It was definitely not possible to not see plenty of penis, even unexpectedly on my college campus. It was simply how it was and no big deal.

Unless you did not expect to see a penis next to you in the shower. That would have been startling, upsetting, possibly traumatizing depending on the circumstance. If the person with a penis is with their girlfriend, probably just considered impolite to intrusive. Some dude from the guy's floor appearing in the shower on the women's floor? Not cool and possibly threatening. Someone you'd never seen before? Definitely scary situation. Shit, there were a couple of guys I would not willingly be in an elevator with even if there were several other people in the same elevator. Alone? I got off immediately. Women learn to develop and trust their creep meters for good reason. No, creep meters are not infallible. But I spent one long, long night trying to keep one of those creepy dudes from lighting on fire my friend who had passed out. Or raping her because he was definitely interested in that. So when I say creep: it was earned.

I have been sexually assaulted/had attempts made in places where I should have been safe: At the home of extended family members. On a camping trip with my family. In a crowded dorm room. In a friend's apartment. At work--technically that was just a threat of assault by someone who was 3 times my size. At a different work place--when I was about 8 months pregnant, actually.

You know what that makes me? Lucky because nothing progressed to actual rape. And very, very, very average.

A woman would have to be blind or stupid not to be startled, at the very least to find a naked stranger with a penis next to her in the women's locker room or shower. She would not be unreasonable to be upset or frightened.

Assuming the naked person with a penis is a trans woman, the woman next to her probably would be no threat whatsoever. But how should she know that? It is NOT something a woman can safely assume! And if she reacted as the average woman would probably react: with horror or outrage, that would probably be fairly traumatizing to the transwoman. No one wants that either.

Which is why I think the only reasonable way to accommodate everyone and to allow everyone to feel safe is to have universal and mandatory individual stalls with doors for dressing and showering.
 
Interestingly, women are actually much more accepting of trans rights than men, despite the men vs women narrative being pushed in this thread. In both cases, most men and most women oppose the use of bathrooms and locker rooms by trans people, that's not in dispute. Ours is a transphobic country to the core. But women are slightly less likely, not more likely, to hold prejudicial attitudes about trans people in publuc spaces.
Real question: If your mother or your partner's mother or your ex or any woman you cared about called you up, upset because while she was showering at the gym, there was a naked stranger with a penis next to her in the shower, would you not understand why they might be upset by that?
 
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