George Floyd murderer's trial

[Loren Pechtel]

He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would have simply been waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately. Floyd needed more oxygen in his lungs, but was not getting it because he was in awkward position

Passing out in 10-15 seconds is the result of a blood choke, not an airway choke! The former is acceptable in combat sports and has no lasting effects unless it's applied too long. The latter is not acceptable because it can do damage to the airway, letting go doesn't always let the person breathe again. (Which is why police departments are banning choke holds--it takes training to ensure you're only doing a blood choke and not an airway choke and they don't train enough to do it safely.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

What he did originally that caused Floyd to complain he couldn't breathe wouldn't have made anything bad happen--you have to be able to breathe to say you can't breathe. It looks like he responded to the complaints by increasing the pressure, completely preventing breathing, shutting him up but also killing him.

 

[TomC]

Oh my bad. I retract everything.

Edit: Everything except barbos claiming it was irrelevant.

Oh, [MENTION=224]barbos[/MENTION]; did?

OK, my bad. I didn't realize that anyone had said anything as stupid as Chauvin's behavior was irrelevant. There are almost 300 posts in this thread.
Tom

No, not that Chauvin's behavior was irrelevant but that the "neck thing" (Knee on the neck) was irrelevant. That's what Worldtraveller was talking about.

Are you talking about this?

There are several people in this thread claiming that having someone kneel on the back of one's neck for 9+ minutes is irrelevant.

That was posted by [MENTION=1521]Worldtraveller[/MENTION];
I didn't see anyone, in this thread, refer to that behavior as irrelevant.

Because that's what I'm talking about, concerning Chauvin's behavior.
I haven't seen anyone, in this thread, making a big deal out of any other behavior by Chauvin. Am I missing something, or are you strawmanning people who disagree with you?

Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would have simply been waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately. Floyd needed more oxygen in his lungs, but was not getting it because he was in awkward position

Passing out in 10-15 seconds is the result of a blood choke, not an airway choke! The former is acceptable in combat sports and has no lasting effects unless it's applied too long. The latter is not acceptable because it can do damage to the airway, letting go doesn't always let the person breathe again. (Which is why police departments are banning choke holds--it takes training to ensure you're only doing a blood choke and not an airway choke and they don't train enough to do it safely.)

Man, I remember chokehold training in BCT and subsequent nights in the barracks where we would blood choke each other until the moment we lost consciousness. I've never had such insane hallucinations than in the 1-2 seconds that I fell unconscious during a blood choke.

They are, indeed, damn near instant when you do it right.

If you do it wrong, it'll sound (and feel) like someone punched you in the throat.

 

[Gospel]

No, not that Chauvin's behavior was irrelevant but that the "neck thing" (Knee on the neck) was irrelevant. That's what Worldtraveller was talking about.

Are you talking about this?

There are several people in this thread claiming that having someone kneel on the back of one's neck for 9+ minutes is irrelevant.

That was posted by [MENTION=1521]Worldtraveller[/MENTION];
I didn't see anyone, in this thread, refer to that behavior as irrelevant.

Because that's what I'm talking about, concerning Chauvin's behavior.
I haven't seen anyone, in this thread, making a big deal out of any other behavior by Chauvin. Am I missing something, or are you strawmanning people who disagree with you?

Tom

Can't believe we are back to this. Thought the misunderstanding was resolved. This is how things went.

Barbos said this.

I am not a medical doctor but I think I more less agree with Dr David Fowler that death was not caused by the force on the neck.
It looks bad on the video but really has no effect in itself. What I think is more important is the fact that Floyd was in a position where his chest was constrained, combined with the fact that he was under stress which requires higher oxygen intake. And of course his bad heart.
Neck thing is irrelevant.

Then worldtraveller said this

There are several people in this thread claiming that having someone kneel on the back of one's neck for 9+ minutes is irrelevant.

I have a modest proposal that involves an experiment with every one of you, and a stopwatch.

Any takers?

Then you said;

I don't know of one. Nobody on this thread has opined that Chauvin had no part in Floyd's death.
Tom

The issue is worldtraveller wasn't talking about anyone claiming that Chauvin had no part in Floyd's death. He said that several people are claiming that having someone kneel on the back off the neck is irrelevant. My answer was that Babado's claimed it (to name one as you requested).

 

[barbos]

He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would have simply been waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately. Floyd needed more oxygen in his lungs, but was not getting it because he was in awkward position

Passing out in 10-15 seconds is the result of a blood choke, not an airway choke!

That's what I said.

 

[barbos]

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would have simply been waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately. Floyd needed more oxygen in his lungs, but was not getting it because he was in awkward position

You are confusing blocking the carotid artery in the neck (what MMA fighters do for a "10-second knockout") with constriction of the airway that occurs from both the position of the body and the pressure on the back of the neck (and the pressure on the handcuffs too). For a clearer picture of that distinction and relevance, see the testimony from the Pulmonary expert that occured on day 9... especially the clarifications that were made during the defense's cross examination. It was quite clear.

blocking the artery causes an immediate drop of o2 to the brain, causing quick unconsciousness. But since the o2 levels in the BLOOD is still high, recovery is quick after the blood supply is restored. Blocking the airway causes a slow drop of o2 in the blood, causing slow unconsciousness, with slow recovery after the o2 supply is restored.

In this case, the 02 supply was restricted for a long time and recovery became impossible.

No, I am not confusing it, it's people here who are claiming neck thing was relevant are confusing it.

 

[barbos]

I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

What he did originally that caused Floyd to complain he couldn't breathe wouldn't have made anything bad happen--you have to be able to breathe to say you can't breathe. It looks like he responded to the complaints by increasing the pressure, completely preventing breathing, shutting him up but also killing him.

It was not pressure on his neck, it was chest restriction due to awkward position and yes pressure on the chest.
People here are fixated on things which look bad on the video but have nothing to do with Floyd's death.

 

[untermensche]

I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

What he did originally that caused Floyd to complain he couldn't breathe wouldn't have made anything bad happen--you have to be able to breathe to say you can't breathe. It looks like he responded to the complaints by increasing the pressure, completely preventing breathing, shutting him up but also killing him.

Saying you can't breathe means you are not getting sufficient oxygen and are experiencing discomfort.

You can talk and still not be getting sufficient oxygen.

The cop was torturing him.

 

[none]

you have to be able to exhale exhale to say you can't breathe.

 

[Derec]

I particularly like the 0.01% chance of riots...

I did not say that. I said 0.0-0.1% chance of an acquittal. 12 jurors have to agree to acquit, and that will be almost impossible.
A more realistic chance, maybe 5%, is that there will be a mistrial due to a hung jury in which case the state will almost certainly retry.
He will most likely get convicted of something. And there I wrote ...

You got one thing right - in the highly unlikely case he gets acquitted, or even if he gets convicted of something like manslaughter, the #BLMers will riot, loot and burn all over Minneapolis, Portland and other cities.

Rioting is incredibly likely unless he gets convicted of the top charge - and even then #BLMers might riot just because. They are still rioting in Brooklyn Center even though Kim Potter was charged with manslaughter.

It's pretty funny (odd) that someone can murder another person live on camera in front of multiple witnesses, yet racists will declare that "the fix is in" if they are convicted of doing what millions of people saw them do.

You don't have to be a "racist"^* to disagree that the prosecution proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Because it is impossible to tell what kind of pressure Chauvin was exerting on Floyd's airway. I have not seen any reports of any damage to the airway tissues indicating that it was restricted due to an outside force. And there is an alternative explanation for his breathing difficulties - his lungs were full of liquid due to a fentanyl overdose. That combined with his poor health is most likely the main cause of death.

^* Funny how the Left will insist that "racism" means "prejudice plus power" when they are defending the asinine statement that "blacks can't be racist" (ignoring all the power, economic and political, that black people have in the US) but when it comes to accusing white people of racism mere disagreement on a point of politics or a criminal trial suffices to throw around the allegation like so much confetti!

 

[Derec]

Or that said person deserves some compensation from the city.

Some compensation would be fine. $27 fucking million dollars is not.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

What he did originally that caused Floyd to complain he couldn't breathe wouldn't have made anything bad happen--you have to be able to breathe to say you can't breathe. It looks like he responded to the complaints by increasing the pressure, completely preventing breathing, shutting him up but also killing him.

Saying you can't breathe means you are not getting sufficient oxygen and are experiencing discomfort.

You can talk and still not be getting sufficient oxygen.

The cop was torturing him.

I agree.

Let's try this for some few others in the thread: I know people who were having medical emergenices--last one was covid--who had low oxygen and said, "I can't breathe." Last one got an ambulance called for their covid. They had low oxygen.

 

[Elixir]

Or that said person deserves some compensation from the city.

Some compensation would be fine. $27 fucking million dollars is not.

Why not? What is YOUR life worth, for instance, if you are tortured to death by a cop for suspicion of passing a fake $20?
Just a ballpark figure will do, Derec.

 

[Elixir]

Rioting is incredibly likely unless he gets convicted of the top charge - and even then #BLMers might riot just because.

A gathering is a virtual certainty, whether for protest demonstration, or just a vigil to honor the dead and express sorrow.
With that comes the other virtual certainty: white supremacists will show up at that gathering to incite violence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

What he did originally that caused Floyd to complain he couldn't breathe wouldn't have made anything bad happen--you have to be able to breathe to say you can't breathe. It looks like he responded to the complaints by increasing the pressure, completely preventing breathing, shutting him up but also killing him.

Saying you can't breathe means you are not getting sufficient oxygen and are experiencing discomfort.

You can talk and still not be getting sufficient oxygen.

The cop was torturing him.

Yes, that is what I think Chauvin intended--to torture him.

 

[Patooka]

Or that said person deserves some compensation from the city.

Some compensation would be fine. $27 fucking million dollars is not.

I wish I could be surprised that you believe killing black citizens deserves a little extra when it comes to payday. I'm not. You lamenting over the fact that Derek Chauvin will receive no compo says it all. As for your opinion that the amount to Floyd's family is excessive I have an absurd radical and controversial thought; train the fucking cops better.

It fucking sickens me that having the opinion that US cops are poorly trained and selected is considered contentious. It's not. There are exhibits "A" through to fucking "omega" because you are going to need more than one alphabet to list them all. And yet it is considered contentious and controversial to have such an opinion. Fuck, I'm glad I live on the other side of the planet and all I have to worry about is spiders.

 

[barbos]

Or that said person deserves some compensation from the city.

Some compensation would be fine. $27 fucking million dollars is not.

I understand most of it gets to enrich their black lawyer(s), and then there are taxes.
$27mil could have been better spent on the whole black community there.

 

[TomC]

Or that said person deserves some compensation from the city.

Some compensation would be fine. $27 fucking million dollars is not.

Why not? What is YOUR life worth, for instance, if you are tortured to death by a cop for suspicion of passing a fake $20?
Just a ballpark figure will do, Derec.

How much does someone who swallows a handful of dangerous drugs, knowing they have serious health issues already, while being arrested, value their own life?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Why not? What is YOUR life worth, for instance, if you are tortured to death by a cop for suspicion of passing a fake $20?
Just a ballpark figure will do, Derec.

How much does someone who swallows a handful of dangerous drugs, knowing they have serious health issues already, while being arrested, value their own life?
Tom

Seems to be the modern day version of "give me freedom or give me death!"
Seriously, do you think he was trying to commit suicide? (BTW I didn't see him swallow "a handful of dangerous drugs". But maybe I missed that part of the video. If that's an assertion by the cops who killed him, it's not worth the air molecules that moved when they said it.

IMHO that's disgusting and unwarranted implication that has zero bearing and in no way mitigates the murder committed by Derek Chauvin.