George Floyd murderer's trial

[Gospel]

That is definitely the police claim here. It gets absurd when we are asked to believe in a coincidence inconsistent with our observations.

it's actually doubly absurd and not for a reason you think.
First, it can actually be a coincidence, just ask any mathematician they will explain it to you.
Secondly, the only people who claim coincidence are the "prosecution"
It was not coincidence, they guy with a bad heart and on drugs fought the police and had a heart attack. People are having heart attacks in sleep simply because they sleep on a wrong side.

So does this mean the "neck thing" is relevant? If the heart attack is a no-shit Sherlock moment then 4 minutes of "neck thing" instead of 4 minutes of medial aid is relevant no? This case really rests on the 4-minute "neck thing" bro. Was it purposeful or not is the question. Based on testimony from all the medical professionals (including Fowler) it was the police restraint that threw a burning match into a highly combustible environment. With Floyd being in their care (handcuffed) did they do their job as best they could as police officers to secure Floyd and Floyd's well-being? If not, why not? What actions were taken to prevent harm to the person in their custody? Where did they fail and how? These questions are basic shit.

The 4-minute "neck thing" will be hard to get listed under administering aid or the need for force columns.

Regardless he will be acquitted of all charges. At least the state didn't wait until after the acquittal to pay Floyd's family so they can use that money to move out before the city burns.

 

[barbos]

Gospel
Yes, Police should have better procedures for detecting people with actual medical problems and act accordingly.
In reality for every such death in custody police have thousands arrests where suspects were handled as badly as in this case.

Half of them were on drugs and half of them were shouting "I can't breathe!". Occasionally they don't lie.

Just got an idea. Have that oxygen meter thing as a standard equipment and if someone claims they can't breathe then that means they agree to take a test. If they refuse then all bets are off and beating commences/resumes.

 

[Elixir]

That is definitely the police claim here. It gets absurd when we are asked to believe in a coincidence inconsistent with our observations.

it's actually doubly absurd and not for a reason you think.
First, it can actually be a coincidence, just ask any mathematician they will explain it to you.
Secondly, the only people who claim coincidence are the "prosecution"
It was not coincidence, they guy with a bad heart and on drugs fought the police and had a heart attack. People are having heart attacks in sleep simply because they sleep on a wrong side.

So does this mean the "neck thing" is relevant? If the heart attack is a no-shit Sherlock moment then 4 minutes of "neck thing" instead of 4 minutes of medial aid is relevant no? This case really rests on the 4-minute "neck thing" bro. Was it purposeful or not is the question. Based on testimony from all the medical professionals (including Fowler) it was the police restraint that threw a burning match into a highly combustible environment. With Floyd being in their care (handcuffed) did they do their job as best they could as police officers to secure Floyd and Floyd's well-being? If not, why not? What actions were taken to prevent harm to the person in their custody? Where did they fail and how? These questions are basic shit.

The 4-minute "neck thing" will be hard to get listed under administering aid or the need for force columns.

Regardless he will be acquitted of all charges. At least the state didn't wait until after the acquittal to pay Floyd's family so they can use that money to move out before the city burns.

Oh fuck ... this coincidence ruse is such BS. Even the defense witness grudgingly admitted that literally everyone who dies "experiences a fatal arrhythmia".
That doesn't mean there's no such thing as murder.

 

[Toni]

Gospel
Yes, Police should have better procedures for detecting people with actual medical problems and acting accordingly.
In reality for every such death in custody police have thousands arrests where suspects were handled as badly as in this case.

Half of them were on drugs and half of them were shouting "I can't breathe!". Occasionally they don't lie.

Unfortunately, in this case, there is video of Floyd George's death and perhaps enough humanity left in the world that 12 honest jurors can look at the video and see how having a full grown man put his body's weight on his knee on your neck might kill you, regardless of any underlying medical condtions.

And that's not even taking into account that this form of 'hold' was not sanctioned by the police department and is known to have caused a number of unintended deaths.

 

[Gospel]

Gospel
Yes, Police should have better procedures for detecting people with actual medical problems and acting accordingly.
In reality for every such death in custody police have thousands arrests where suspects were handled as badly as in this case.

Half of them were on drugs and half of them were shouting "I can't breathe!". Occasionally they don't lie.

Just got an idea. Have that oxygen meter thing as a standard equipment and if someone claims they can't breathe then that means they agree to take a test. If they refuse then all bets are off and beating commence.

"Neck thing" not relevant, other people (possibly from another space-time continuum) are relevant. Got it.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The bad analogy police say if the diabetic is already in process of dying from a heart attack or stroke; yes diabetes was the cause of death. Your bullet while not helpful, is of no blame at all (granted it would have been better if you gave the diebetic an aspirin).

-- defense's expert witness

 

[barbos]

"Neck thing" not relevant, other people (possibly from another space-time continuum) are relevant. Got it.

I am not following.

 

[Gospel]

"Neck thing" not relevant, other people (possibly from another space-time continuum) are relevant. Got it.

I am not following.

And I'm not driving, Miss Daisy.

 

[barbos]

Gospel
Yes, Police should have better procedures for detecting people with actual medical problems and acting accordingly.
In reality for every such death in custody police have thousands arrests where suspects were handled as badly as in this case.

Half of them were on drugs and half of them were shouting "I can't breathe!". Occasionally they don't lie.

Unfortunately, in this case, there is video of Floyd George's death and perhaps enough humanity left in the world that 12 honest jurors can look at the video and see how having a full grown man put his body's weight on his knee on your neck might kill you,

He did not die from it, not directly at least. Indirectly it might have increased his level of stress.

regardless of any underlying medical condtions.

Defense should have Chauvin offer his neck for demonstration that it's not deadly.

And that's not even taking into account that this form of 'hold' was not sanctioned by the police department and is known to have caused a number of unintended deaths.

Just because it was not sanctioned does not mean it's deadly.

 

[Gospel]

Yall like math right? Knee + four minutes unresponsive George Floyd = elephant in the room.

 

[Gun Nut]

I am not a medical doctor but I think I more less agree with Dr David Fowler that death was not caused by the force on the neck.
It looks bad on the video but really has no effect in itself. What I think is more important is the fact that Floyd was in a position where his chest was constrained, combined with the fact that he was under stress which requires higher oxygen intake. And of course his bad heart.
Neck thing is irrelevant.

What testimony were you watching? Dr. David Fowler agreed that after 4 minutes of the knee in that position the brain would be deprived of oxygen. Dude had the "neck thing" going for well over that amount of time. .

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would have simply been waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately. Floyd needed more oxygen in his lungs, but was not getting it because he was in awkward position

You are confusing blocking the carotid artery in the neck (what MMA fighters do for a "10-second knockout") with constriction of the airway that occurs from both the position of the body and the pressure on the back of the neck (and the pressure on the handcuffs too). For a clearer picture of that distinction and relevance, see the testimony from the Pulmonary expert that occured on day 9... especially the clarifications that were made during the defense's cross examination. It was quite clear.

blocking the artery causes an immediate drop of o2 to the brain, causing quick unconsciousness. But since the o2 levels in the BLOOD is still high, recovery is quick after the blood supply is restored. Blocking the airway causes a slow drop of o2 in the blood, causing slow unconsciousness, with slow recovery after the o2 supply is restored.

In this case, the 02 supply was restricted for a long time and recovery became impossible.

 

[Gun Nut]

One of the other exchanges involved Dr Fowler's unsupported assertion that Floyd's lack of oxygen was due to carbon monoxide poisoning from car exhaust. You can read part of that from the link above, but here also is another part of that exchange:

Answering questions from Blackwell, Fowler agreed there was no finding of carbon monoxide in Floyd's body because no tests were done. Blackwell then asked Fowler if he knew for a fact that the squad car was running at the time Floyd was restrained. Fowler replied he believed the car was running because he saw water dripping from the tail pipe.

"You simply assumed, seeing something dripping from a tailpipe, that the car had to be on?" Blackwell asked.

""It's not an assumption," Fowler replied. "It's an evaluation that in my mind indicates the vehicle was running."

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-death-2021-04-14/

There is much more at both links.

The Carbon Monoxide (CO) topic is an interesting legal issue... There was a test for the presence for CO in Floyd's body at autopsy. HOWEVER, the defense failed to enter that test into evidence. Furthermore, the defense's witness stated that NO TEST was performed for the levels of CO in Floyd's body. Yet, that same witness suggested that CO could have contributed to his death.
The test actually showed a LOW level of CO in his system, however this was hidden from the jury due to the rules of evidence (late disclosure). So. WE know about this, but the Jury does not.
The prosecution was threatened with a mistrial by the Judge if they so much as mention CO in their redirect of the witness...
The prosecution smartly recalled their own witness to redress the O2 levels in the blood to imply the low level of CO in the blood, refuting the supposition of the defense's witness.

I found that very interesting.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Day 14

The defense has rested and the trial is adjourned until Monday for closing arguments.

At this point, I have to say, "What in the Actual Fuck?"

Some interesting snippets at this link:

• Chauvin pleads fifth so he doesn't testify;
• rebuttal witness called;
• the carbon monoxide discussion continued...
• the prosecution and defense argued in front of the judge without the jury present regarding additional test information.

A rebuttal witness was re-called by the prosecution, Dr Tobin who said the stuff about carbon monoxide was "simply wrong":

Tobin said medical records showed Floyd's oxygen saturation was 98% when he died. Prosecutor Jerry Blackwell asked him: "Does that tell us anything whatsoever about what the carbon monoxide content could have been at a maximum?"

Tobin said: "Yes, it does. It tells us that if hemoglobin is saturated at 98%, it has – for others is 2%. So the maximum amount of carbon monoxide would be 2%."

...

During his testimony Fowler said that it was his opinion that Floyd's carbon monoxide levels in his blood could have increased by 10% to 15%. Tobin said that assessment is "simply wrong."

The argument that the prosecution had with defense was about discovery. Apparently, there were some lab tests done that included results applicable to carbon monoxide that would bolster the prosecution's case. But the lab tests had been lost in the shuffle and not included in the case. The medical examiner who did Floyd's autopsy called the prosecution to let them know about the lab tests after Fowler was on the stand saying there were no such tests ordered. The defense argued that the prosecution knew about Fowler's coming testimony and so should have had the lab tests to argue against the witness ahead of time. The judge ruled it was too late to introduce this newly found evidence and that it'd be a mistrial if the lab tests were brought up.

Closing arguments will begin 9am Monday.

 

[Gun Nut]

Gospel
Yes, Police should have better procedures for detecting people with actual medical problems and act accordingly.
In reality for every such death in custody police have thousands arrests where suspects were handled as badly as in this case.

Half of them were on drugs and half of them were shouting "I can't breathe!". Occasionally they don't lie.

Just got an idea. Have that oxygen meter thing as a standard equipment and if someone claims they can't breathe then that means they agree to take a test. If they refuse then all bets are off and beating commences/resumes.

Hopefully, if you were a juror, you would have paid much better attention to the witnesses. I suspect you watched close to nothing and are just "shooting from your hip" and using your imagination as to how things might should be.
One of the most interesting moments of testimony was the statement from the world's leading Pulmonologist that the meme "If you can speak, you can breath" is horrifically wrong, and dangerous. He proceeded to show in great detail and excellent explanation, along with diagrams and animations, how one can speak without being able to sufficiently supply the body with oxygen. You can reduce airflow up to 95% (!!!!!!) and still clearly speak.

The defense is doing the best they can to mitigate the blame that can be placed on the cop(s). If that means they have to claim that an obscure issue that never killed anyone before, killed him at that exact moment, then that is what they need to do. It's up to reasonable people (the Jury, hopefully) to understand this and weigh it accordingly.
You, on the other hand, seem to want to just accept what the defense's witnesses say with no regard for the plaintiff's establishment of the plain to see facts.
Why is that?

 

[Gun Nut]

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would simply be waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately.

MMA fighters lose consciousness in 10-15 seconds yet 4 minutes of the knee on neck is irrelevant.

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You don't know how much I want to put a rope around your neck and tighten it until you say you are starting to feel resistance to your breathing.... and then lock it down a few pounds more. I wonder how you will phrase "I'm finding it difficult to breath and I am not getting enough oxygen to my brain to maintain consciousness". Will you say, "I can't breath" so I can laugh and remind you that you are speaking therefore in no danger whatsoever?
At my murder trial.. my witness will put your mother on trial for passing on her imperfect genes... we'll lock her up for ultimately causing your death with her less than perfect DNA.

 

[Gun Nut]

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You have a point there. Gosh, I just don't think the knee made the situation better. When he went into a "cardiac event" as Fowler put it Floyd going unconscious became relaxed (for lack of a better term). It's like an MMA fighter in a chokehold going unconscious after having a "cardiac event" not caused by the chokehold but the chokehold being held for an additional 4 minutes after the fighter has gone lax won't help one bit.

no. not a "point". A misunderstanding of basic anatomy that was extensively discussed at the trial neither of you seem to have watched. you do know the difference between blood and air, don't you?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You have a point there. Gosh, I just don't think the knee made the situation better. When he went into a "cardiac event" as Fowler put it Floyd going unconscious became relaxed (for lack of a better term). It's like an MMA fighter in a chokehold going unconscious after having a "cardiac event" not caused by the chokehold but the chokehold being held for an additional 4 minutes after the fighter has gone lax won't help one bit.

no. not a "point". A misunderstanding of basic anatomy that was extensively discussed at the trial neither of you seem to have watched. you do know the difference between blood and air, don't you?

We haven't all had time to watch all the video. I know the news articles don't cover everything 100% either.

Can you provide video footage of testimony with the minutes to watch or a related news article excerpt for us so we can catch up with the documented evidence?

This seems to be a good, technical point.

 

[Gospel]

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You have a point there. Gosh, I just don't think the knee made the situation better. When he went into a "cardiac event" as Fowler put it Floyd going unconscious became relaxed (for lack of a better term). It's like an MMA fighter in a chokehold going unconscious after having a "cardiac event" not caused by the chokehold but the chokehold being held for an additional 4 minutes after the fighter has gone lax won't help one bit.

no. not a "point". A misunderstanding of basic anatomy that was extensively discussed at the trial neither of you seem to have watched. you do know the difference between blood and air, don't you?

No, but are you saying a 4-minute chokehold in my make-believe scenario would be helpful to the MMA fighter? Yes, it's a bad analogy but I wasn't basing my make-believe analogy on academic research. It was to drive home that the 4-minute "knee thing" was counterproductive and neither helpful nor neutral in improving Floyd's condition. It wasn't helpful or neutral in subduing Floyd either so my question is why did that happen?

 

[Worldtraveller]

There are several people in this thread claiming that having someone kneel on the back of one's neck for 9+ minutes is irrelevant.

I have a modest proposal that involves an experiment with every one of you, and a stopwatch.

Any takers?

 

[Jarhyn]

There are several people in this thread claiming that having someone kneel on the back of one's neck for 9+ minutes is irrelevant.

I have a modest proposal that involves an experiment with every one of you, and a stopwatch.

Any takers?

*Cue the crickets...*