George Floyd murderer's trial

[TomC]

“The defendant is not on trial for being a police officer, he is on trial for what he did. He was trained and he did not follow that training. He knew better, but he did not do better. What the defendant did was not policing, what the defendant did was assault. He betrayed the badge.”

That's an excellent summary of my opinion.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Wow, I had not seen that part of the video before. When Floyd is removed from the car because of his claustrophobia - Floyd says, “thank you.” He said “thank you.” And then Chauvin rolled him prone and killed him. That is so so wrong.

 

[Rhea]

From NYT coverage:
“For the most serious charge that Derek Chauvin is facing, second-degree murder, the prosecution has to prove that Chauvin assaulted George Floyd — or that he intentionally committed or attempted to commit serious bodily harm, Judge Peter Cahill tells jurors. One important thing here is that Chauvin does not have to have had the intent to kill Floyd, per the jury instructions. Just that his assault was intentional, and that it was a substantial factor in causing Floyd’s death“

 

[Elixir]

The only reason the murderer wasn't charged with murder 1 is because of the low bar for acquittal on that charge.
Intent can almost NEVER be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to an entire jury, absent a confession of intent. The consequences of entering a charge with such high odds of acquittal could be dire, tainting the appearance of justice as well as the chances for conviction on lesser charges.
It's obvious that Chauvin is a scumbag who is at best indifferent to the welfare of the accused who are in his 'care'. Convictions should be a foregone conclusion for murder 2 and 3. If he is found not guilty on either of those, protests will ensue as they should. Had a murder one charge been entered and he was found not guilty of that charge, protests would be less justifiable but just as likely.

I hope that if/when protests or vigils do occur, there are plenty of cameras rolling at and around the event, so that anyone inciting or perpetrating violence can be found and brought to account.

 

[Jarhyn]

The only reason the murderer wasn't charged with murder 1 is because of the low bar for acquittal on that charge.
Intent can almost NEVER be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to an entire jury, absent a confession of intent. The consequences of entering a charge with such high odds of acquittal could be dire, tainting the appearance of justice as well as the chances for conviction on lesser charges.
It's obvious that Chauvin is a scumbag who is at best indifferent to the welfare of the accused who are in his 'care'. Convictions should be a foregone conclusion for murder 2 and 3. If he is found not guilty on either of those, protests will ensue as they should. Had a murder one charge been entered and he was found not guilty of that charge, protests would be less justifiable but just as likely.

I hope that if/when protests or vigils do occur, there are plenty of cameras rolling at and around the event, so that anyone inciting or perpetrating violence can be found and brought to account.

You know damn well that they will AutoZone the protests again: have some agitator agitate out of view of the actual core of events and then come down on the peaceful core in lieu of the agitator.

This will happen regardless of the verdict

 

[Angry Floof]

Wow, I had not seen that part of the video before. When Floyd is removed from the car because of his claustrophobia - Floyd says, “thank you.” He said “thank you.” And then Chauvin rolled him prone and killed him. That is so so wrong.

At one point, another officer said, "Are you ok?" but he was talking to Chauvin, not Floyd. That was a fucking gut punch. These cops have lost their minds and their humanity.

 

[repoman]

The only reason the murderer wasn't charged with murder 1 is because of the low bar for acquittal on that charge.
Intent can almost NEVER be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to an entire jury, absent a confession of intent. The consequences of entering a charge with such high odds of acquittal could be dire, tainting the appearance of justice as well as the chances for conviction on lesser charges.
It's obvious that Chauvin is a scumbag who is at best indifferent to the welfare of the accused who are in his 'care'. Convictions should be a foregone conclusion for murder 2 and 3. If he is found not guilty on either of those, protests will ensue as they should. Had a murder one charge been entered and he was found not guilty of that charge, protests would be less justifiable but just as likely.

I hope that if/when protests or vigils do occur, there are plenty of cameras rolling at and around the event, so that anyone inciting or perpetrating violence can be found and brought to account.

You know damn well that they will AutoZone the protests again: have some agitator agitate out of view of the actual core of events and then come down on the peaceful core in lieu of the agitator.

This will happen regardless of the verdict

I agree that Autozone fucker was likely a cop or similar, but the amount of vandalism done by protestors was orders of magnitude more than that.

 

[Jarhyn]

The only reason the murderer wasn't charged with murder 1 is because of the low bar for acquittal on that charge.
Intent can almost NEVER be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to an entire jury, absent a confession of intent. The consequences of entering a charge with such high odds of acquittal could be dire, tainting the appearance of justice as well as the chances for conviction on lesser charges.
It's obvious that Chauvin is a scumbag who is at best indifferent to the welfare of the accused who are in his 'care'. Convictions should be a foregone conclusion for murder 2 and 3. If he is found not guilty on either of those, protests will ensue as they should. Had a murder one charge been entered and he was found not guilty of that charge, protests would be less justifiable but just as likely.

I hope that if/when protests or vigils do occur, there are plenty of cameras rolling at and around the event, so that anyone inciting or perpetrating violence can be found and brought to account.

You know damn well that they will AutoZone the protests again: have some agitator agitate out of view of the actual core of events and then come down on the peaceful core in lieu of the agitator.

This will happen regardless of the verdict

I agree that Autozone fucker was likely a cop or similar, but the amount of vandalism done by protestors was orders of magnitude more than that.

Vandalism and other reactions following the police response were responding to the police response. "If you're going to teargas us like violent rioting protestors, we're going to fucking earn it!"

It's a predictable aspect of human behavior.

 

[ZiprHead]

The only reason the murderer wasn't charged with murder 1 is because of the low bar for acquittal on that charge.
Intent can almost NEVER be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to an entire jury, absent a confession of intent. The consequences of entering a charge with such high odds of acquittal could be dire, tainting the appearance of justice as well as the chances for conviction on lesser charges.
It's obvious that Chauvin is a scumbag who is at best indifferent to the welfare of the accused who are in his 'care'. Convictions should be a foregone conclusion for murder 2 and 3. If he is found not guilty on either of those, protests will ensue as they should. Had a murder one charge been entered and he was found not guilty of that charge, protests would be less justifiable but just as likely.

I hope that if/when protests or vigils do occur, there are plenty of cameras rolling at and around the event, so that anyone inciting or perpetrating violence can be found and brought to account.

You know damn well that they will AutoZone the protests again: have some agitator agitate out of view of the actual core of events and then come down on the peaceful core in lieu of the agitator.

This will happen regardless of the verdict

I agree that Autozone fucker was likely a cop or similar, but the amount of vandalism done by protestors was orders of magnitude more than that.

Iirc, the guy turned out to be an ex-con who was a member of a white supremacist prison gang.

 

[Gun Nut]

no. not a "point". A misunderstanding of basic anatomy that was extensively discussed at the trial neither of you seem to have watched. you do know the difference between blood and air, don't you?

We haven't all had time to watch all the video. I know the news articles don't cover everything 100% either.

Can you provide video footage of testimony with the minutes to watch or a related news article excerpt for us so we can catch up with the documented evidence?

This seems to be a good, technical point.

understandable. Equally understandable is disdain and distrust of those who would speak about that which they have no clue, nor a REASON to think they do have a clue. "I didn't pay any attention to any of this, I have no clue what any evidence presented is, but here is what I think...(insert random imaginations with no bearing on reality).

You can find the expert's testimony regarding the difference between depriving a person of blood to the brain versus depriving them of air to the lungs during the entire first half of Day 9.... easily accessible in full, unedited, on youtube. Just search "trial day 9".

 

[Gun Nut]

no. not a "point". A misunderstanding of basic anatomy that was extensively discussed at the trial neither of you seem to have watched. you do know the difference between blood and air, don't you?

No, but are you saying a 4-minute chokehold in my make-believe scenario would be helpful to the MMA fighter? Yes, it's a bad analogy but I wasn't basing my make-believe analogy on academic research. It was to drive home that the 4-minute "knee thing" was counterproductive and neither helpful nor neutral in improving Floyd's condition. It wasn't helpful or neutral in subduing Floyd either so my question is why did that happen?

It reduced the airflow to the lungs for long enough to reduce the oxygen levels in the brain, causing the heart to stop beating.

 

[Gun Nut]

By the...well, damn, I hate to even sarcastically call it "logic" of some of our resident medical experts, we might as well conclude that John F. Kennedy died of the many chronic health problems he'd accumulated by November of 1963. He'd had whooping cough, chicken pox, measles, scarlet fever, and ear infections growing up; during his presidential years Kennedy suffered from high fevers; stomach, colon, and prostate issues; abscesses; high cholesterol; and adrenal problems. During his first term in Congress he was diagnosed with the rare Addison's disease--also hyperthyroidism.

At the time of his death from what is obviously some unquantifiable combination of these (and other) disorders, a bullet fired into his brain by Lee Harvey Oswald, hypertension, and the extensive suite of painkillers and meds he was on, Kennedy was essentially a dead man walking at the time he landed in Dallas.

Does Oswald bear some (any?) culpability in JFK's death? No one can really say. He *could* have done some things differently, perhaps (although his actions were consistent with the training he'd had), but to overlook JFK's own health problems as contributors is to place undue emphasis on a video everyone on the planet has seen, and draw unwarranted conclusions from it.

So, ask yourself--what does the Zapruder film NOT show? The answer, my friends, is Addison's disease.

Oswald flexed his finger. Since when is flexing your finger illegal!!?!?! It was the bullet that might have coincidently pass through his body at the same time all of his past medical issues came to his end... and that bullet was propelled by the physics of gas expansion... how can anyone be held accountable for the physical laws of the universe????
If I push someone off a cliff, arrest the ground for causing their death... and Earth is culpable too for deforming spacetime and creating a dangerous amount of gravity. Falling does not hurt anyone. It's that inappropriate and malicious sudden stop, directly and independently caused by the ground.

 

[Gun Nut]

no. not a "point". A misunderstanding of basic anatomy that was extensively discussed at the trial neither of you seem to have watched. you do know the difference between blood and air, don't you?

No, but are you saying a 4-minute chokehold in my make-believe scenario would be helpful to the MMA fighter? Yes, it's a bad analogy but I wasn't basing my make-believe analogy on academic research. It was to drive home that the 4-minute "knee thing" was counterproductive and neither helpful nor neutral in improving Floyd's condition. It wasn't helpful or neutral in subduing Floyd either so my question is why did that happen?

Again, "Choke" just means to put pressure on the neck... if that pressure is placed on the carotid artery (on the side of the neck), then unconsciousness occurs almost immediately (seconds). That is what MMA fighters do... they stop the (oxygen rich) blood to the brain to cause a knockout. They immediately let go to allow the blood to flow to the brain, which since it is already full of oxygen, restores consciousness before any permanent damage occurs.
If you chock the neck in such a way to block the flow of air into the lungs, then blood continues to flow to the brain, but with decreasing amounts of available oxygen to feed it. Once that drops below a certain threshold, over time unconsciousness occurs... Once you allow air to start flowing, first the lungs need to work to start extracting oxygen, then that oxygen needs to get into the blood, then the blood needs to get into the brain... and oops - too late.
.. and by "oops" I mean, "you're going to jail for a very long time you piece of shit murdering fuckface"

 

[atrib]

Why are we spreading blame around during the trial of DEREK CHAUVIN, though?
Why would we spend time spreading blame around in a discussion of DEREK CHAUVIN’s trial?

To what end?
What’s the point?

Honesty. Sorting out what actually happened. Trying to prevent it from happening again.

Chauvin continued to asphyxiate Floyd for over 3 minutes after learning that Floyd had stopped breathing. He ignored another officer, and a bystander who identified herself as an EMS provider who both advised him that Floyd had stopped breathing and needed first aid. He had to be physically removed from Floyd's neck and back by the EMT staff from the ambulance. That is what actually happened.

Chauvin had more than 3 minutes to try to resuscitate Floyd and perhaps bring him back to life. He chose to kill Floyd instead, probably believing that he would be protected by his badge. To prevent incidents like these from happening again we have to hold these rogue officers responsible for their actions, which is what the state is trying to do.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

By the...well, damn, I hate to even sarcastically call it "logic" of some of our resident medical experts, we might as well conclude that John F. Kennedy died of the many chronic health problems he'd accumulated by November of 1963. He'd had whooping cough, chicken pox, measles, scarlet fever, and ear infections growing up; during his presidential years Kennedy suffered from high fevers; stomach, colon, and prostate issues; abscesses; high cholesterol; and adrenal problems. During his first term in Congress he was diagnosed with the rare Addison's disease--also hyperthyroidism.

At the time of his death from what is obviously some unquantifiable combination of these (and other) disorders, a bullet fired into his brain by Lee Harvey Oswald, hypertension, and the extensive suite of painkillers and meds he was on, Kennedy was essentially a dead man walking at the time he landed in Dallas.

Does Oswald bear some (any?) culpability in JFK's death? No one can really say. He *could* have done some things differently, perhaps (although his actions were consistent with the training he'd had), but to overlook JFK's own health problems as contributors is to place undue emphasis on a video everyone on the planet has seen, and draw unwarranted conclusions from it.

So, ask yourself--what does the Zapruder film NOT show? The answer, my friends, is Addison's disease.

Oswald flexed his finger. Since when is flexing your finger illegal!!?!?! It was the bullet that might have coincidently pass through his body at the same time all of his past medical issues came to his end... and that bullet was propelled by the physics of gas expansion... how can anyone be held accountable for the physical laws of the universe????
If I push someone off a cliff, arrest the ground for causing their death... and Earth is culpable too for deforming spacetime and creating a dangerous amount of gravity. Falling does not hurt anyone. It's that inappropriate and malicious sudden stop, directly and independently caused by the ground.

Hold on there. The bullet was acting like a reasonable, normal bullet, following all the laws of gravity, drag and trajectory procedures. The onlookers didn't have the full perspective the bullet did. So their perception was wrong. And that's okay. But the whole thing was JFK's head's fault anyway because it chose to move in the direction of the bullet. You have to look at things from the bullet's frame of reference.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Maybe something different is going on in your headd when you do that. But what we see is you changing the subject.

Something entirely different from that is going on in my head. And I'm pretty sure I've said so. There's a bunch of threads on this issue, so maybe I wasn't clear in this particular thread.
So I'll explain.

I definitely think Chauvin was wrong. So wrong, he shouldn't ever be entrusted with a security position, much less a police job, ever again. There should be penalties for what he did.
But not murder.

HOWEVER, Floyd contributed hugely to his own demise. An emotive video that went viral doesn't begin to cover the whole situation, but it did convince a bunch of people that Chauvin tortured Floyd to death for allegedly passing a fake $20. The video doesn't show Floyd's health issues, or that Floyd took enough drugs to kill some people, or that Floyd was safely in a car demanding to be restrained physically on the ground instead. The video only shows Floyd's death. Which I doubt would have happened if Floyd had made a few choices differently.

Floyd certainly wouldn't have been restrained by the knee on the neck if he'd stayed in the car. But he didn't want to stay safely in the car.
And he got his way.

What I'm pointing out is that there's plenty of blame to spread around. Blaming everything on Chauvin is ridiculous.
Tom

By this 'reasoning', if you come across someone standing on a bridge contemplating jumping to commit suicide. You might be a bad person for giving them a shove, but hey, it doesn't deserve a murder charge.

I hate knowing I share the planet with people (and there's a lot of them, sadly) with such fucked up morals.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Remember, George Floyd already had his trial.

This is the kind of crap that makes this discussion so difficult.
Tom

Bye?

 

[ZiprHead]

Is the defense trying to bore the jury into voting for acquittal?

 

[TomC]

Maybe something different is going on in your headd when you do that. But what we see is you changing the subject.

Something entirely different from that is going on in my head. And I'm pretty sure I've said so. There's a bunch of threads on this issue, so maybe I wasn't clear in this particular thread.
So I'll explain.

I definitely think Chauvin was wrong. So wrong, he shouldn't ever be entrusted with a security position, much less a police job, ever again. There should be penalties for what he did.
But not murder.

HOWEVER, Floyd contributed hugely to his own demise. An emotive video that went viral doesn't begin to cover the whole situation, but it did convince a bunch of people that Chauvin tortured Floyd to death for allegedly passing a fake $20. The video doesn't show Floyd's health issues, or that Floyd took enough drugs to kill some people, or that Floyd was safely in a car demanding to be restrained physically on the ground instead. The video only shows Floyd's death. Which I doubt would have happened if Floyd had made a few choices differently.

Floyd certainly wouldn't have been restrained by the knee on the neck if he'd stayed in the car. But he didn't want to stay safely in the car.
And he got his way.

What I'm pointing out is that there's plenty of blame to spread around. Blaming everything on Chauvin is ridiculous.
Tom

By this 'reasoning', if you come across someone standing on a bridge contemplating jumping to commit suicide. You might be a bad person for giving them a shove, but hey, it doesn't deserve a murder charge.

I hate knowing I share the planet with people (and there's a lot of them, sadly) with such fucked up morals.

It's unfortunate that I share a planet with people who have reasoning skills as poor as yours.

But that's the human situation.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Remember, George Floyd already had his trial.

This is the kind of crap that makes this discussion so difficult.
Tom

Bye?

Feel free. I don't need you here.
Tom