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German woman jailed over failure to pay broadcast fee

Right 6 months in jail and loss of job is not a big deal when TV shows about soccer are involved.

You are finally understanding the importance of fütball, soccer, in the world!

The high cost of broadcasting fütball in Germany is just the start. Like in the US the government usually subsidizes the building of the stadiums. Some municipal governments directly subsidize the teams to help poor teams compete or to lower the ticket prices for the fans who attend the matches of successful clubs. ...
You guys have seen The Crepes of Wrath? Bart gets enslaved in France by his exchange student hosts, escapes, tells a cop about a long list of crimes, but is utterly unable to interest the gendarme, until he tells him the criminals have also been contaminating wine.

This is Germany, and the lady has been putting antifreeze in the soccer. :D
 
Right 6 months in jail and loss of job is not a big deal when TV shows about soccer are involved.

You are finally understanding the importance of fütball, soccer, in the world!

The high cost of broadcasting fütball in Germany is just the start. Like in the US the government usually subsidizes the building of the stadiums. Some municipal governments directly subsidize the teams to help poor teams compete or to lower the ticket prices for the fans who attend the matches of successful clubs.

World football teams don't trade players or equably draft players out of school like is common in the US, they buy and sell players, with a so-called transfer fee in addition to the wages. The record transfer fee that am aware of is more than €100 million paid by Real Madrid for Gareth Bale, a Welch international two and a half years ago from an obscure, English club team that I can't remember the name of right now. This doesn't include agents and other fees that can add 30% to the amount. The rich, successful teams can afford much better players, to continue to be successful. Predatory capitalism in action.

WTF does capitalism have to do with the government sending people to jail for not wanting to pay for government television programs?

Whenever discussions about the evils of corporations come up one of the common defenses of them is that no one is forced to buy their products. If you don't like think their products are worth what they sell them for you are free not to buy them.

Forcing everyone to buy something they may or may not want under penalty of jail is quite a different thing from capitalism.
 
I find it bizarre that the tax is payable on some kind of 'voluntary', month-by-month basis.

Australia has two government television broadcasters and the Australian government does not ask the people kindly for a license fee. It's collected in general taxation and you don't have a choice.

So I find the jail part ludicrous and the part where you have to initiate the actions to give it over. Just seize the money! That's how taxes -- rightly -- work!
 
I find it bizarre that the tax is payable on some kind of 'voluntary', month-by-month basis.

Australia has two government television broadcasters and the Australian government does not ask the people kindly for a license fee. It's collected in general taxation and you don't have a choice.

So I find the jail part ludicrous and the part where you have to initiate the actions to give it over. Just seize the money! That's how taxes -- rightly -- work!

The point is to be fair, and allow those who don't use the service to opt-out of paying - By not owning a TV.

This probably made a lot more sense in the 1950s and 60s, when lots of people simply didn't own TVs, and the TV broadcasting was subsidized only by those few who did.

But it provides the path to non-payment that this person could legitimately have followed - If she is so strongly opposed to paying the licence fee, she always had the option of getting rid of her TV set, thereby becoming exempt from paying.

If I chose not to have a TV, my taxes still fund the ABC and SBS regardless. Whether that is more or less equitable than the German system is debatable.
 
The point is to be fair, and allow those who don't use the service to opt-out of paying - By not owning a TV.

This probably made a lot more sense in the 1950s and 60s, when lots of people simply didn't own TVs, and the TV broadcasting was subsidized only by those few who did.

But it provides the path to non-payment that this person could legitimately have followed - If she is so strongly opposed to paying the licence fee, she always had the option of getting rid of her TV set, thereby becoming exempt from paying.
No, the point was to be fair, and allow those who don't use the service to opt-out of paying by not owning a TV, and it provided the path to non-payment that this person could legitimately have followed - if she is so strongly opposed to paying the licence fee, until 2013 she had the option of getting rid of her TV set, thereby becoming exempt from paying.

"The fee has long been a source for contention, especially when authorities changed the policy in 2013 to imposing a blanket charge on all households, regardless of whether they have a television or radio."​

Now the point is to make people pay for their neighbors' soccer habits. This appears to have made a lot of Germans angry.
 
Yes, if you read the article they did used to exempt people without TVs, but that led to fascist style inspections of people's houses to see if people had TVs.

Oh, if only the private sector would provide people who want programs about soccer with programs about soccer all this could be avoided!
 
I have to agree that having this tax as a separate "voluntary" fee, with no way to opt out, is ridiculous. Doubly so in that it became an involuntary fee in 2013, when cord-cutting was well under way worldwide. It should be taken out of a general tax fund, and relevant taxes increased accordingly, given that there is no way to opt out. Another avenue would be to add a tax to the purchase of TV's, radios, and other devices capable of accessing the public broadcast content.
 
I have to agree that having this tax as a separate "voluntary" fee, with no way to opt out, is ridiculous. Doubly so in that it became an involuntary fee in 2013, when cord-cutting was well under way worldwide. It should be taken out of a general tax fund, and relevant taxes increased accordingly, given that there is no way to opt out. Another avenue would be to add a tax to the purchase of TV's, radios, and other devices capable of accessing the public broadcast content.

Another alternative would be to get the government out of the business of producing TV shows. As inconceivable as that may appear on the surface, it seems like it could be possible.
 
I have to agree that having this tax as a separate "voluntary" fee, with no way to opt out, is ridiculous. Doubly so in that it became an involuntary fee in 2013, when cord-cutting was well under way worldwide. It should be taken out of a general tax fund, and relevant taxes increased accordingly, given that there is no way to opt out. Another avenue would be to add a tax to the purchase of TV's, radios, and other devices capable of accessing the public broadcast content.

Another alternative would be to get the government out of the business of producing TV shows. As inconceivable as that may appear on the surface, it seems like it could be possible.

Yes, but it does have the unfortunate side effect of rendering the product unwatchable shit.

TV advertising as a funding model is truly vile.
 
Yes, but it does have the unfortunate side effect of rendering the product unwatchable shit.

TV advertising as a funding model is truly vile.

Maybe it would be possible private enterprises could also produce TV programs and sell them by subscription without advertising. Or does that seem too outlandish?

And, if you insist that the government must be in the business of producing TV, maybe it could offer its TV service through voluntary subscription instead of threat of 6 month jail sentence. I know it sounds crazy that TV programs could exist without someone being under threat of jail, but I think it just might be possible.
 
Yes, but it does have the unfortunate side effect of rendering the product unwatchable shit.

TV advertising as a funding model is truly vile.

Maybe it would be possible private enterprises could also produce TV programs and sell them by subscription without advertising. Or does that seem too outlandish?

And, if you insist that the government must be in the business of producing TV, maybe it could offer its TV service through voluntary subscription instead of threat of 6 month jail sentence. I know it sounds crazy that TV programs could exist without someone being under threat of jail, but I think it just might be possible.

Sure, it's possible. It's possible to nail one's scrotum to the floor too. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that many people will enjoy it.

Someone going to jail for not paying a tax she could very easily afford, and which she has the right to oppose via the democratic process, but instead chose to oppose by civil disobedience, doesn't strike me as problematic in the least.

That's how society works. If she didn't like the German system, she was free to go somewhere else (as an EU citizen, she has the right to move and work within the EU and a number of EU external territories without a visa). Or to lobby her political representatives. Or to form her own political party, and/or to run for office and to try to have the law changed.

The government spends lots of money on things I am not a supporter of; but I am not so stupid as to think that I can refuse to pay a portion of my taxes without consequences as a result.

Nor, presumably, are you, given that you are apparently not in jail.
 
I have to agree that having this tax as a separate "voluntary" fee, with no way to opt out, is ridiculous. Doubly so in that it became an involuntary fee in 2013, when cord-cutting was well under way worldwide. It should be taken out of a general tax fund, and relevant taxes increased accordingly, given that there is no way to opt out. Another avenue would be to add a tax to the purchase of TV's, radios, and other devices capable of accessing the public broadcast content.

In the UK the reasoning for a TV Licence is that it doesn't make an income from advertising revenue. However in Germany there is advertising though limited. The case to remove licences would be for these stations to fund themselves through advertising. After all you need to pay a licence to watch a self funded TV station as well as a state funded one. Do we really need state funded media in a modern democracy?
 
I have to agree that having this tax as a separate "voluntary" fee, with no way to opt out, is ridiculous. Doubly so in that it became an involuntary fee in 2013, when cord-cutting was well under way worldwide. It should be taken out of a general tax fund, and relevant taxes increased accordingly, given that there is no way to opt out. Another avenue would be to add a tax to the purchase of TV's, radios, and other devices capable of accessing the public broadcast content.

In the UK the reasoning for a TV Licence is that it doesn't make an income from advertising revenue. However in Germany there is advertising though limited. The case to remove licences would be for these stations to fund themselves through advertising. After all you need to pay a licence to watch a self funded TV station as well as a state funded one. Do we really need state funded media in a modern democracy?

We don't need state funded entertainment, but there is still a case to be made for the societal importance of state funded news, informational, and educational television.
Profit motive is largely incompatible with honesty and accuracy in informational media. Of the hundreds of supposed commercial news and "educational" channels, every single one if chock full of deliberate misinformation. For every truth, there are distortions that are more profitable. Commitment to accuracy has limited commercial value in a marketplace where there are so many distortions that consumers cannot actually tell who is being consistently accurate. Plus, most people do not want accurate information, but rather want confirmation of their beliefs. Yet, for the same reasons we have education requirements and publicly funded education, we need (and liberty cannot survive without) the public getting accurate info, whether their is profitable demand for it or not.

Of course, in fascist societies, state funded information is even worse. However, state funded informational media can be and usually is more honest, accurate, and less manipulative than commercial media, WHEN it is in a relatively open democracy that also includes largely unregulated commercial media.
The keys are that the programming is not directly controlled by political office holders, and their is commercial media to challenge authoritarian abuse and government misinformation. The irony is that while commercial media is very unlikely not be distorted for financial gain, its ability to expose obvious misinformation by state funded media, wind up making state funded media typically more honest and accurate than the commercial outlets.

That said, I think state run media should have to stick to non-fiction, non-entertainment, fact-based programming. They can be held accountable in that area. Fiction and entertainment is inherently rife with subjective values, political preferences, etc.. The state hiring people to decide what subjective values and ideologies they want promoted isn't something that is in the public's interests and is a stone's throw from propaganda. Any values that are universal enough to not be controversial are going to already be promoted in culture and present in commercial markets (the market works differently for values than factual information because consumers can know when they agree with a value but often cannot know when they are being misinformed).

Addendum: Even when state funded media is run by people with a bias, the bias tends to be qualitatively different than the effect of a profit motive bias. The worst situation is when all sources share a similar type of bias, because it makes it near impossible to detect when and how the bias is operating. If you don't have any unbiased sources, the next best thing are multiple sources with different types of biases, because this produces obvious differences in what they are saying when one or more of them is engaging in bias, which is at least an signal that you need to verify who if anyone is being honest.
 
Their soccer programming is a very small fraction of what the broadcast fee is spent on. You have several TV (ARD, ZDF, Dritte (regional channels)) and radio channels with diverse programming. Pretty much everybody would find something they intensely disliked about some of it (like for example original daytime soaps). Does that means nobody should have to pay their broadcast fee?
Now there can be a reasonable discussion if such broad approach to public broadcasting is still appropriate in the 21st century media landscape but she can't just unilaterally decide not to pay.

Construct an argument from principles for me that anyone ever should be forced to pay for TV broadcasting.

What you typed sounds more like an argument that no one should be forced to pay to me.

I disagree with having a military.

Therefore, I should not have to pay taxes, and if I go to jail for refusing to pay taxes, then I am being "persecuted."

What about people who don't believe in schools? Shouldn't they be allowed to skip out on paying taxes?

What about anarchists who don't believe in the police? Should they be forced to pay taxes to support police forces?

What if I worship a fire god and don't want my tax dollars to support a fire department because it's against my religion to put out fires? Should I have to pay taxes then?

We are clearly being oppressed! :cheeky:
 
Construct an argument from principles for me that anyone ever should be forced to pay for TV broadcasting.

What you typed sounds more like an argument that no one should be forced to pay to me.

I disagree with having a military.

Therefore, I should not have to pay taxes, and if I go to jail for refusing to pay taxes, then I am being "persecuted."

What about people who don't believe in schools? Shouldn't they be allowed to skip out on paying taxes?

What about anarchists who don't believe in the police? Should they be forced to pay taxes to support police forces?

What if I worship a fire god and don't want my tax dollars to support a fire department because it's against my religion to put out fires? Should I have to pay taxes then?

We are clearly being oppressed! :cheeky:

I tried that approach, but dismal asserts that there is some fundamental principles that apply to only those services you refer to and that cannot possibly apply to the service of providing information. He refuses to present any argument to support his claim of such a fundamental difference, and expects the rest of us to prove the negative that their is no difference.
 
I disagree with having a military.

Therefore, I should not have to pay taxes, and if I go to jail for refusing to pay taxes, then I am being "persecuted."

What about people who don't believe in schools? Shouldn't they be allowed to skip out on paying taxes?

What about anarchists who don't believe in the police? Should they be forced to pay taxes to support police forces?

What if I worship a fire god and don't want my tax dollars to support a fire department because it's against my religion to put out fires? Should I have to pay taxes then?

We are clearly being oppressed! :cheeky:

I tried that approach, but dismal asserts that there is some fundamental principles that apply to only those services you refer to and that cannot possibly apply to the service of providing information. He refuses to present any argument to support his claim of such a fundamental difference, and expects the rest of us to prove the negative that their is no difference.

If you have never read or heard anyone discuss the principles of what should and shouldn't be done by government you are in need of more remedial help than I can provide.
 
I tried that approach, but dismal asserts that there is some fundamental principles that apply to only those services you refer to and that cannot possibly apply to the service of providing information. He refuses to present any argument to support his claim of such a fundamental difference, and expects the rest of us to prove the negative that their is no difference.

If you have never read or heard anyone discuss the principles of what should and shouldn't be done by government you are in need of more remedial help than I can provide.

I have, and everytime any reasonable argument is made for the things that should be done, those principles logically support state supported dissemination of information.
You keep refusing to present any defensible principles that don't also apply to information because you know you cannot.
 
If you have never read or heard anyone discuss the principles of what should and shouldn't be done by government you are in need of more remedial help than I can provide.

I have, and everytime any reasonable argument is made for the things that should be done, those principles logically support state supported dissemination of information.
You keep refusing to present any defensible principles that don't also apply to information because you know you cannot.

I don't find your argument even slightly convincing as governments are historically the greatest and most dangerous propagandists and distorters of information.

But that aside: information about soccer?

Private companies can't be trusted to get the scores right or something? Have you ever seen television?
 
I have, and everytime any reasonable argument is made for the things that should be done, those principles logically support state supported dissemination of information.
You keep refusing to present any defensible principles that don't also apply to information because you know you cannot.

I don't find your argument even slightly convincing as governments are historically the greatest and most dangerous propagandists and distorters of information.

Governments are historically the most murderous attackers of people, therefore government should not be in charge of the military or police.
See how rational consistency works?

Also, you didn't bother to try to understand my argument. I pointed out that in non-democracies and without non-governmental press to keep it in check, government media is dangerous propaganda. But in a democracy, a voice that does not have corporate profit motives is a neccessary check on deadly (yes deadly) corporate propaganda and misinformation.
The studies that have been done testing the objective accuracy of news media in the US and UK have shown that publicly supported media is the most reliable, and its viewers the least misinformed about issues of clear objective fact.

But that aside: information about soccer?

Private companies can't be trusted to get the scores right or something? Have you ever seen television?

Sorry, no goalpost moving. Your statements have been that government has no business in the area of "TV broadcasting". I already said that it is broadcasting of factual information that is defensible if not critical for the public welfare, and that this doesn't support them broadcasting fiction or entertainment. However, soccer is something they are not creating the content of and thus less subject to propaganda influence. So, if were something they broadcast to raise revenue from sponsors to pay for informational broadcasting, then it could make sense. If they are forcing people to pay for others to watch soccer, then its bullshit.
Note that unlike yourself, I made a principled argument that distinguishes what could be included and what not.
 
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